Transit Strike

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

I live in mid-town and work downtown so lucky for me the PATH is an option but my 15 minute commute is now well over an hour. I work with people from Long sland wh spent 5 hours commuting each way yesterday.

Because of this I have some very strong feelings on the subject. I applaud the MTA, mayor and gov. they have already given in too much and the TWU is still crying. I will not be given a 3% 4% and 3.5% raise in each of the next 3 years just for showing up to work, my pay is based on perfomance.

I don’t have a pension, I have a 401(k) that I put 6% of each check into. The TWU has a problem putting in 2% and getting full benifits at 55? They have to be kidding!

Also why are they doing this now? Maybe (but I doubt it) I would have some sympathy for them if they waited until after XMas and did not just put countless businesses out of business all through Manhattan. NYers have been through a sh!t load in the past 4 years… Thanks for adding to it a$$ holes.

Also while on the subject what does United Air, Delta, GM, Delphi, Ford and just about every other manufacturing company in this country have in common? They are all being crushed by their unions. What these unions fail to see is that soon they will not have jobs to strike from b/c they are runing American Business.

62

[quote]DB297 wrote:
I live in mid-town and work downtown so lucky for me the PATH is an option but my 15 minute commute is now well over an hour. I work with people from Long sland wh spent 5 hours commuting each way yesterday.

Because of this I have some very strong feelings on the subject. I applaud the MTA, mayor and gov. they have already given in too much and the TWU is still crying. I will not be given a 3% 4% and 3.5% raise in each of the next 3 years just for showing up to work, my pay is based on perfomance.

I don’t have a pension, I have a 401(k) that I put 6% of each check into. The TWU has a problem putting in 2% and getting full benifits at 55? They have to be kidding!

Also why are they doing this now? Maybe (but I doubt it) I would have some sympathy for them if they waited until after XMas and did not just put countless businesses out of business all through Manhattan. NYers have been through a sh!t load in the past 4 years… Thanks for adding to it a$$ holes.

Also while on the subject what does United Air, Delta, GM, Delphi, Ford and just about every other manufacturing company in this country have in common? They are all being crushed by their unions. What these unions fail to see is that soon they will not have jobs to strike from b/c they are runing American Business. [/quote]

Your being brainwashed by big biz into a lower standard of living.

63

[quote]vroom wrote:

In case you hadn’t noticed, a lot of more general issues had come up, concerning unions in general, transit workers in particular, the cost of living in New York, and so on.[/quote]

And you have participated in none of them. I think your recurring quote in this thread is “I’m just stirring the pot”.

Nope - I just grow very weary of your bullshit. Nothing is half as complex as you want it to be. The unions are breaking the law, and the workers will soon pay the price. I’m not sure exactly what is so fucking complex about that.

Are you on some sort of pathological lying binge today? Show me where I said I hate anyone. Show me where I said to punish anyone. Show me or admit to being a fucking liar. Your bullshit is getting very old very quick.

You seem to be the only one crying about how complex life is. Exactly how much time have you spent actually living it? How much life have you missed by sitting under your thinking tree contemplating how complex it is?

I rest my case.

64

Your being brainwashed by big biz into a lower standard of living.[/quote]

I’m a bleading heart liberal but I am also educated enough to see that if this country wishes to remain competitive in the new global economy we all need to give back some.

Why are so many jobs moving to India and China, lower costs. What do our unions always ask for? More money and no increase in what they pay into healthcare (I don’t even want to touch the pension isue b/c a lot of people retiring in 15 years will be F’d).

What does that cause employers to do? They either have to raise the prices of their goods which leads to people buying cheaper brands made overseas OR the employer lays off the workers in the US and moves the jobs overseas for a fraction of the cost and headache.

65

[quote]DB297 wrote:

Your being brainwashed by big biz into a lower standard of living.

I’m a bleading heart liberal but I am also educated enough to see that if this country wishes to remain competitive in the new global economy we all need to give back some.

Why are so many jobs moving to India and China, lower costs. What do our unions always ask for? More money and no increase in what they pay into healthcare (I don’t even want to touch the pension isue b/c a lot of people retiring in 15 years will be F’d).

What does that cause employers to do? They either have to raise the prices of their goods which leads to people buying cheaper brands made overseas OR the employer lays off the workers in the US and moves the jobs overseas for a fraction of the cost and headache.[/quote]
I know allot of unions are screwed up, but allot of that has to do with members not being more involved. Members need to vote out the slime buckets at the top.

As for company’s running overseas, I think theses other countries citizens should fight for good wages, and benefits like we did.

66

[quote]Professor X wrote:
vroom wrote:
So, really, nobody sees an about face on the plight of the “downtrodden” in this situation? Strange.

They aren’t rich enough. If they were millionaires, every conservative would be buying pom poms while doing handstands and cartwheels over their desire for higher pay.[/quote]

Or perhaps they just appreciate a different perspective.

To quote economic blooger Jane Galt:

"The people being hurt by the strike, unfortunately, are mostly people who make less than the transit workers do. Small businesses are being gutted by this; the last few days before Christmas is the busiest time of the year for most retail establishments, and their customers can’t get to them. One of the news shows had small businessmen complaining that this was going to bankrupt them, and I’ve no doubt that it’s true for at least some of New York’s retail stores, which often operate on a shoestring.

Meanwhile, poor workers, who tend to work hourly, are losing salary that they can ill-afford."

67

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
I’m not taking sides on the transit strike but I did want to point out something.

Everybody is talking about what high salaries that the transit workers are making but I think that people don’t realize that they are living in NYC and it is expensive as hell. As a matter of perspective they are making, on average, $47-55K/yr. This translates to $25-29K/yr. in Richmond, VA, $21-25K/yr. in Cincinnati, OH, $20-23K/yr. in Houston, TX and $22-26K/yr. in Atlanta, GA.

Again, I am not taking sides, but when you put it in these terms, it doesn’t seem like so much money anymore.

BTW, from my understanding, transit workers are more than just somebody sitting in a ticket booth. They include: bus drivers, train conductors, transit police, traffic contollers, mechanics and many others. We need to stop saying that these people are unskilled labor and don’t really do anything. It’s not fair to many of these people. If you can drive a bus through NYC rush hour traffic, believe me, you have skills.

Let’s stick to the issues and not treat the little guy just trying to make a buck like crap because they are stuck in this situation. [/quote]

I don’t think your numbers account for any overtime pay, and the average transit worker, from what they were saying on the news, makes a lot from overtime pay.

Aside from that, even those wages you list, which don’t account for the overtime, are still above the average wage for NYC, so the cost of living stuff doesn’t say much to me.

68

[quote]crumungen wrote:
DB297 wrote:

Your being brainwashed by big biz into a lower standard of living.

I’m a bleading heart liberal but I am also educated enough to see that if this country wishes to remain competitive in the new global economy we all need to give back some.

Why are so many jobs moving to India and China, lower costs. What do our unions always ask for? More money and no increase in what they pay into healthcare (I don’t even want to touch the pension isue b/c a lot of people retiring in 15 years will be F’d).

What does that cause employers to do? They either have to raise the prices of their goods which leads to people buying cheaper brands made overseas OR the employer lays off the workers in the US and moves the jobs overseas for a fraction of the cost and headache.
I know allot of unions are screwed up, but allot of that has to do with members not being more involved. Members need to vote out the slime buckets at the top.

As for company’s running overseas, I think theses other countries citizens should fight for good wages, and benefits like we did.

[/quote]

Why should they fight for better wages, a programer in India who makes $15,000 per yer live like a king over there. Also, if they started to fight for more wages the jobs would just go to someone/somewhere else.

69

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X wrote:
vroom wrote:
So, really, nobody sees an about face on the plight of the “downtrodden” in this situation? Strange.

They aren’t rich enough. If they were millionaires, every conservative would be buying pom poms while doing handstands and cartwheels over their desire for higher pay.

Or perhaps they just appreciate a different perspective.

To quote economic blooger Jane Galt:

"The people being hurt by the strike, unfortunately, are mostly people who make less than the transit workers do. Small businesses are being gutted by this; the last few days before Christmas is the busiest time of the year for most retail establishments, and their customers can’t get to them. One of the news shows had small businessmen complaining that this was going to bankrupt them, and I’ve no doubt that it’s true for at least some of New York’s retail stores, which often operate on a shoestring.

Meanwhile, poor workers, who tend to work hourly, are losing salary that they can ill-afford."
[/quote]

I don’t understand, what is the moral difference between that and the issue raised months ago when ice cream truck drivers were losing money and couldn’t even afford rent due to gas prices?

70

[quote]Professor X wrote:
40K a year for collecting subway tokens? Shit, teachers get paid, what, 30 grand?[/quote]

when teachers complain about their pay, people tend to forget that they only work @9 months a year. assuming 30k a year, the effective rate of pay is therefore 40k a year.

71

[quote]rawda wrote:
Professor X wrote:
40K a year for collecting subway tokens? Shit, teachers get paid, what, 30 grand?

when teachers complain about their pay, people tend to forget that they only work @9 months a year. assuming 30k a year, the effective rate of pay is therefore 40k a year.[/quote]

That is a very nice blanket way of looking at it, however, I grew up in a home with two teachers and it isn’t like those months off are unnecessary or even completely free of work if you add in “inservice days”, meetings and many teachers who do teach in summer school.

I personally would like to see more of an effort to get even better qualified teachers with psychology training and move that amount much closer to 50 grand a year. Being a teacher, from what I’ve seen, isn’t that easy, especially today considering sue happy parents and loud mouthed brats who think they know everything.

I know I personally wouldn’t last on that job one week before my foot was found surgically implanted in the ass of some 16 year old. Could you do that job?

72

[quote]
vroom wrote:
So, really, nobody sees an about face on the plight of the “downtrodden” in this situation? Strange.

Professor X wrote:

They aren’t rich enough. If they were millionaires, every conservative would be buying pom poms while doing handstands and cartwheels over their desire for higher pay.

BostonBarrister wrote:

Or perhaps they just appreciate a different perspective.

To quote economic blooger Jane Galt:

"The people being hurt by the strike, unfortunately, are mostly people who make less than the transit workers do. Small businesses are being gutted by this; the last few days before Christmas is the busiest time of the year for most retail establishments, and their customers can’t get to them. One of the news shows had small businessmen complaining that this was going to bankrupt them, and I’ve no doubt that it’s true for at least some of New York’s retail stores, which often operate on a shoestring.

Meanwhile, poor workers, who tend to work hourly, are losing salary that they can ill-afford."

Professor X wrote:

I don’t understand, what is the moral difference between that and the issue raised months ago when ice cream truck drivers were losing money and couldn’t even afford rent due to gas prices?[/quote]

The difference being this strike is illegal, whereas the gas prices were a function of the market. Same difference between stealing and earning money.

73

[quote]rawda wrote:
Professor X wrote:
40K a year for collecting subway tokens? Shit, teachers get paid, what, 30 grand?

when teachers complain about their pay, people tend to forget that they only work @9 months a year. assuming 30k a year, the effective rate of pay is therefore 40k a year.[/quote]

Do you think teachers lounge around the pool in the summer?

Who gives a fuck what the “effective” pay is, teachers–like most of the country–only get paid for the days the work.

In the summer, they get–wait for it–SUMMER JOBS!

74

[quote]crumungen wrote:
Your being brainwashed by big biz into a lower standard of living.[/quote]

Umm… care to elaborate? Can you offer some arguments for your position? All I see on the transit side is criminals. Now, that doesn’t apply to most of the other unions and strikes out there but how, exactly, are we being brainwashed?

75

I’m married to a teacher. She gets paid extra if she teaches summer school.

I’d take a pay cut to get more vacation myself - I guess it’s different marginal value if you work longer hours.

76

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

The difference being this strike is illegal, whereas the gas prices were a function of the market. Same difference between stealing and earning money.[/quote]

If these unions had been million dollar corporations, do you think the act of going on strike would have ever been found to be “illegal”? Then again, I guess they wouldn’t have to strike, huh?

I personally don’t agree with the damage being caused to the city. However, I do find it faulty that your interest of where the money goes all hinges on whether strikes are illegal. I think you are being dishonest if you state this is truly your motivation for why you support one while degrade the other action.

Also, I think you should know by now that I am not against anyone making money. It is why I bring up health insurance and how this decreases the amount that even doctors could make…yet not one conservative seems to give a shit when that is concerned because…hell, you need your health insurance. I think there are many double standards floating around initiated at your leisure. It is fun to watch though.

77

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If these unions had been million dollar corporations, do you think the act of going on strike would have ever been found to be “illegal”? Then again, I guess they wouldn’t have to strike, huh?[/quote]

Please tell me how a “million dollar corporation” would go on strike? Would they stop doing business until they got the price they wanted for the widgets they sell?

Your argument, while a noble one, makes absolutely no sense.

While I am not BB, I don’t think it is about money. It makes for a nice rallying point, and it has been discussed. But hhat the union is doing in this case is illegal. Plain and simple. Money, or not - the unions are in direct violation of the law.

People want to villify drug companies, and big business becasue they are easy targets. I think everyone should hold the same contempt for insurance companies. They are crooks. All of them. Them and the brainless mush-heads called the general public have formed an allience to break this country in half.

78

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

The difference being this strike is illegal, whereas the gas prices were a function of the market. Same difference between stealing and earning money.

Professor X wrote:

If these unions had been million dollar corporations, do you think the act of going on strike would have ever been found to be “illegal”? Then again, I guess they wouldn’t have to strike, huh?[/quote]

Actually, it would, as analogous as it gets. If a group of corporations colluded with one another to raise the value of their product by withholding it from the marketplace, that would be a direct violation of the anti-trust laws.

Of course, unions are generally exempted from the anti-trust laws via an act of Congress, even though they perfectly fit the definition.

However, w/r/t these state-employee unions, there is a New York law that forbids them from striking, because their strike is against the public interest (and their employers are essentially the taxpayers).

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I personally don’t agree with the damage being caused to the city. However, I do find it faulty that your interest of where the money goes all hinges on whether strikes are illegal. I think you are being dishonest if you state this is truly your motivation for why you support one while degrade the other action.[/quote]

I don’t like unions for a slew of reasons, most of which have to do with their general corruption, exemption from anti-trust laws, and how certain unions benefit from closed-shop laws (laws that make it legal for a person to be required to join a union as a condition of his employment).

I don’t like the economics of this strike, and I think the union’s position is absurd.

And, it’s illegal.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Also, I think you should know by now that I am not against anyone making money. It is why I bring up health insurance and how this decreases the amount that even doctors could make…yet not one conservative seems to give a shit when that is concerned because…hell, you need your health insurance. I think there are many double standards floating around initiated at your leisure. It is fun to watch though.[/quote]

W/r/t health insurance, I would love it for doctors to be able to band together to negotiate with the insurance companies – that makes sense from an economic perspective. However, it’s been found to violate those pesky anti-trust laws. Perhaps they should form a union instead…

Anyway, health insurance is very complex. We should start another thread on that and we can argue about whether individuals should be in control of their own policies or whether the employer-provided policies that are incented by current tax laws make sense.

79

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
However, w/r/t these state-employee unions, there is a New York law that forbids them from striking, because their strike is against the public interest (and their employers are essentially the taxpayers).[/quote]

And as far as any issue of whether I support a strike that puts the lives of others at risk, of course not. I do, however, think that they shouldn’t be degraded for asking for money as this goes against the way you apparently feel about oil companies…yet the majority of the posts revolve around them being “token takers” who make too much as it is. I don’t understand the double standard here.

[quote]I don’t like the economics of this strike, and I think the union’s position is absurd.

And, it’s illegal.[/quote]

Why do you think their position is absurd? This is honestly the part I don’t understand from you. You are FOR large businesses making as much money as possible, but god forbid a “token taker” try to get paid more and get around the system as well? When many poor people were seeing large problems from the increase in gas prices, all we heard were cheers from every one of you. Something just doesn’t make sense.

It might make a good thread, however, let’s not pretend that I haven’t brought that issue up several times before.

80

While I can get behind most everything else in your post, this one appears to be a bit of a stretch.

American business is not being ruined because of unions. Yes, I know, it helps, but it is only one staw on the camels back. Don’t let your hatred of unions allow you to dump all of this on the unions.

North American jobs are going to countries that have cheaper labor. By this I don’t mean a few dollars an hour less. I mean much cheaper labor. People are always going to fight for a livable wage, no matter what they do, and any livable wage “over here” will be too much when competing with “over there”.

–

Rainjack, why don’t you focus on what you like or don’t like about what I say on the topic, instead of your opinion of me and related name calling?

I’m very tired of your trolling and getting pulled into endless meaningless fights. You know damned well I’ll say what I want, how I want, whether you like it or not. Get used to it.

Telling me to “go away” or “shut up” accomplishes nothing.