Transit Strike

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]vroom wrote:

I think you are arguing for the victims of Katrina and their right to expect relief from the government… I mean, surely that is not a mistake, for them to have expected their services to be provided to them?[/quote]

I can stop you there - I think you may have gotten me confused with other posters. I have never suggested that Katrina victims should not get help from their government.

Yes - but, again, perhaps you are thinking of someone else.

I have never been an anti-government type - and I think there are plenty of opportunities for government to do good, but they are limited. I think you may be staging a debate with the wrong T-Nation poster.

42

Thunder, I’m basically just stirring the pot, didn’t I mention that once or twice?

43

[quote]vroom wrote:
Thunder, I’m basically just stirring the pot, didn’t I mention that once or twice?[/quote]

At least you are being up front about it. lol

44

Look, the NY transit strike is just a salvo in a war that will engage more and more of our attention in the years to come – the war between the government people with their gold-plated benefits packages and retirement plans, and the rising resentment of us private-sector saps, who have to pay for it all with our taxes.

The idea that the government will be funding these ridiculous pension demands just roils. I heard on TV this morning that there is a city in Minnesota (I think it’s Minneapolis but I’m not positive on that) that pays close to 30% of its overall budget to pension benefits for public workers. That is simply absurd, and it’s only going to get worse with demographics shifting as they are.

45

BB, you don’t understand. We are fortunate that the government workers work for chickenfeed. They deserve all the benefits they get. We all know they are incredibly competent and if they went into the private sector they could make a fortune with their skills. (sarcasm)

46

Today’s commute–by bike from Forest Hills (Queens) to Midtown. About 1.5 hours due to heavy traffic and a stop at the bike shop. Last night walked about halfway home (2 hour walk) and took a cab the rest of the way.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Anyway, I know people expect good service for their tax money, but really, how often do governments represent a good way to spend your money. Are you suggesting in the case of public transit people can expect good service from a government program?
[/quote]

No, we are not expecting GOOD service. But, we are expecting service because
we paid for it–as mentioned several times by various posters.

There is a pretty clear distinction:
GOOD service-Trains are clean and on-time
BAD Service-Trains will get you to where you are going…eventually. This has been the status for
the last several years.
NO service–This is where the problem arises.

Comparing the situation in NYC to Katrina is illogical–the situations are clearly different. FEMA workers did not refuse to help people, they were just very bad at their jobs. Subway rides get comparable service to FEMA victims and we don’t bitch as much as they did. Of course, the results of MTA’s incompitence is merely being late to work (or leaving earlier)

Now if FEMA workers went on strike the day of the hurricane and refused to help anyone until various benefit/ salary/pension issues were resolved THEN it would be the same as the current NYC situation.

If you were driving down the road in Ottawa (do you use roads or have you created your own Vroom paths–given your so self-reliant) and noticed a huge wall preventing passage would you just shrug it off, skid and walk to your destination? Oh well! Government road. What can ya expect?

[quote]vroom wrote:
They certainly shouldn’t be able to band together in a union and demand better than minimum wage so they can live a decent life in one of the most expensive cities on the planet. Surely minimum wage is more than enough for these lowlife reprehensible scum.
[/quote]

Wow. Great gift for hyperbole.
Saying ‘60k per year (after all benefits included) for someone who hands out MetroCards is fair enough’ is far different from calling them lowlife scum. They deserve what the market will pay them. If too few acceptable applicants are available then the salary will increase. Simple Supply and Demand. If their current skills do not allow them to earn a living wage then they can acquire more skills that will allow them to earn more. I sincerely hope that, paying people more for no reason other than ‘they need it’, NEVER occurs in the US.

[quote]vroom wrote:
It isn’t the fault of the public transportation worker that you were dumb enough to rely on cheaply available government services, is it?
[/quote]

Hmmm…do you keep a fire extinguisher in your house in case the firemen decide not to show up? Man, you gotta learn to be self-reliant?

Hope you also grow your own food! Can’t trust grocery stores, right? Something may happen. Gotta stay reliable! I have a gun, and a missle launcher, and an F16. If terrorists hit again I’ll take them on–solo! Can’t rely on the military to do things. Maybe we should all stop buying Biotest products also. Why should we rely on then for our nutritional needs? Or better yet, maybe Biotest can lower their prices so the poor, less financially secure can afford the same as everyone else. Don’t poor bodybuilders deserve protein powder too?!

47

Lesotho, I am just reversing arguments used in recent events to stir up shit, if you read enough you’ll see that I’m not actually pro union – though I believe they once served a purpose.

In particular, the Katrina issue points were basically showing the fact that people were decried for not being ready enough, for being dependent, for expecting the government to provide service.

Are we to expect something for our taxes or not? If we are, then we are. We don’t get to change our tune because of who has this expectation…

As much as people hate to do so, the whole point is to think instead of spout dogma at every issue.

48

I’m not taking sides on the transit strike but I did want to point out something.

Everybody is talking about what high salaries that the transit workers are making but I think that people don’t realize that they are living in NYC and it is expensive as hell. As a matter of perspective they are making, on average, $47-55K/yr. This translates to $25-29K/yr. in Richmond, VA, $21-25K/yr. in Cincinnati, OH, $20-23K/yr. in Houston, TX and $22-26K/yr. in Atlanta, GA.

Again, I am not taking sides, but when you put it in these terms, it doesn’t seem like so much money anymore.

BTW, from my understanding, transit workers are more than just somebody sitting in a ticket booth. They include: bus drivers, train conductors, transit police, traffic contollers, mechanics and many others. We need to stop saying that these people are unskilled labor and don’t really do anything. It’s not fair to many of these people. If you can drive a bus through NYC rush hour traffic, believe me, you have skills.

Let’s stick to the issues and not treat the little guy just trying to make a buck like crap because they are stuck in this situation.

49

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Everybody is talking about what high salaries that the transit workers are making but I think that people don’t realize that they are living in NYC and it is expensive as hell. As a matter of perspective they are making, on average, $47-55K/yr. This translates to $25-29K/yr. in Richmond, VA, $21-25K/yr. in Cincinnati, OH, $20-23K/yr. in Houston, TX and $22-26K/yr. in Atlanta, GA.
[/quote]

I think you are using the numbers as if they all lived on Manhattan. I’m betting it’s not nearly so high living in Queens.

Thae salaries are just a part of it. The fully funded pension they are demanding is over the top. And full pension benefits at 55? C’mon, Al - even you can see that that is asking for a little too much, right?

50

Well, regardless of cost of living, is it not fair to call every striking worker a criminal only waiting to be convicted? After all, they broke the law by striking, refused to obey a judge’s order to return to work, and are represented by a union that has now been held in contempt of court.

Latest news from CNN (sorry, don’t have the link) is that striking workers are now being fined three days of pay for every one day on strike, up from two.

I am heartened by the fact that one thousand striking workers realized the error of their ways and crossed picket lines yesterday, returning to work.

Hopefully every striking worker is fined, found guilty (I’m guessing it’d be a misdemeanor?), fined the maximum amount, and that money returned to the city.

Not that it’ll help resolve the underlying issue, but it sure would be a nice punishment.

51

I say s-can them all and hire people that want to get with the times!

52

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
I’m not taking sides on the transit strike but I did want to point out something.

Everybody is talking about what high salaries that the transit workers are making but I think that people don’t realize that they are living in NYC and it is expensive as hell. As a matter of perspective they are making, on average, $47-55K/yr. This translates to $25-29K/yr. in Richmond, VA, $21-25K/yr. in Cincinnati, OH, $20-23K/yr. in Houston, TX and $22-26K/yr. in Atlanta, GA.

Again, I am not taking sides, but when you put it in these terms, it doesn’t seem like so much money anymore.

BTW, from my understanding, transit workers are more than just somebody sitting in a ticket booth. They include: bus drivers, train conductors, transit police, traffic contollers, mechanics and many others. We need to stop saying that these people are unskilled labor and don’t really do anything. It’s not fair to many of these people. If you can drive a bus through NYC rush hour traffic, believe me, you have skills.

Let’s stick to the issues and not treat the little guy just trying to make a buck like crap because they are stuck in this situation. [/quote]

Regardless of what it comes out to, these people still make more than a first-year teacher and a first-year-cop COMBINED.

Does driving a bus require skills? Sure. Subway conductor? Yup, tough job. The guy in the ticket booth? You could train a monkey to do that job.

They are in violation of the Taylor Act and arrests should be made, starting from the top down.

The teachers of NYC worked for almost two years without a contract when their unon and the city could not come to an agreement; these schmucks should be arrested, fined, and fired.

53

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
I’m not taking sides on the transit strike but I did want to point out something.

Everybody is talking about what high salaries that the transit workers are making but I think that people don’t realize that they are living in NYC and it is expensive as hell. As a matter of perspective they are making, on average, $47-55K/yr. This translates to $25-29K/yr. in Richmond, VA, $21-25K/yr. in Cincinnati, OH, $20-23K/yr. in Houston, TX and $22-26K/yr. in Atlanta, GA.

Again, I am not taking sides, but when you put it in these terms, it doesn’t seem like so much money anymore.

BTW, from my understanding, transit workers are more than just somebody sitting in a ticket booth. They include: bus drivers, train conductors, transit police, traffic contollers, mechanics and many others. We need to stop saying that these people are unskilled labor and don’t really do anything. It’s not fair to many of these people. If you can drive a bus through NYC rush hour traffic, believe me, you have skills.

Let’s stick to the issues and not treat the little guy just trying to make a buck like crap because they are stuck in this situation.

Regardless of what it comes out to, these people still make more than a first-year teacher and a first-year-cop COMBINED.

Does driving a bus require skills? Sure. Subway conductor? Yup, tough job. The guy in the ticket booth? You could train a monkey to do that job.

They are in violation of the Taylor Act and arrests should be made, starting from the top down.

The teachers of NYC worked for almost two years without a contract when their unon and the city could not come to an agreement; these schmucks should be arrested, fined, and fired.
[/quote]

It’s still amazes me to this day that teachers and police are not better compensated for what they do…

54

I love how everyone has draconian solutions for these things.

What world are you living in? Has it become so easy to demonize people that everyone deserves to burn in hell for everything they do?

When it comes to politicians people are willing to give them every inch of the law and then demand incredible proof of wrongdoing before accepting any possibility of transgression.

However, the common man, so much as looks at you askance, and they should be slain for their impudence.

55

Shut the hell up vroom. All you have done on this thread is admit to wanting to stir shit up.

What is the great thinktard’s solution? Hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and give the situation a good thinking over?

This is real. And you treat it as if it is a case study in how to dance around the issu and point your finger at everyone.

There is a time and a place for you bullshit - this is neither.

Now do you have a solution, or are you just piping up to prove how smart you think you are?

What a moron.

56

Tell us how you really feel RJ.

57

What are you on about Rainjack?

Do you think it matters what we decide in here? Do you think New York is waiting for our advice, with bated breath, so they can figure out how to solve this issue? It’s that vital we stick to providing solutions to this problem for them?

It looks to me like they are on the issue and doing what they can about it.

In case you hadn’t noticed, a lot of more general issues had come up, concerning unions in general, transit workers in particular, the cost of living in New York, and so on.

I think you just hate it when the complexities of most situations are brought to light. You want everything to be really simple. Hate these people. Punish those people. Unions bad. Democrats evil. Money good.

Life is more complex than that. Don’t blame me for it, I’m only the messenger.

58

This is a hard call for me. I said it before- I don’t think that this is the time to strike, being as they are better paid than both cops and firemen. Although, these guys might be able to say, “Look at the MTA. We want that”, and so it might help them also.

I will never argue with a Union being strong. But when you when others have it worse…I just don’t think this is too good of a thing to do now. It doesn’t matter to me either way, but I would have some qualms if I was in there union.

59

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
I’m not taking sides on the transit strike but I did want to point out something.

BTW, from my understanding, transit workers are more than just somebody sitting in a ticket booth. They include: transit police, traffic
[/quote]

I don’t know about the rest of your list, but transit police are not TWU members, in fact there is no such thing as the “transit police”

New York used to have several different police forces including the NYPD, the transit police, the school police, and I think one other. But they have long since, I believe under Guiliani, combined into just the NYPD.

(I think Amtrak still has its own police as does the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey- on a completely side note the Port Authority Cops are some of the most highly paid public servants. every year the NY Post lists the top pay for public workers and every year a couple of port authority cops have worked enough overtime etc. to make close to $300,000.00)

But even before the combination I don’t think the transit police were part of the TWU.

60

You’re right, vroom, in mentioning that we won’t solve anything. I don’t think most public or quasi-public forums do. However, I believe T-Nation’s off-topic forums provide a great place for people to come together and share their opinions.

Hopefully, after hearing from others, we can walk away saying, “Damn, I never thought of that,” or, “Hmm, what an interesting point,” or even, “Well, that’s bullshit, but at least now I have insight into how the ‘other side’ feels.”

At least, that’s why I’m here.

We’ve heard from at least one New York area resident. I’d be interested in hearing from one of the striking transit workers. Unfortunately, that person would probably be flamed.

I’ve got to admit that it would be tempting for me to rail against them, but I’d hold my tongue in order to hear what they think. I’m really curious about the rational behind continuing to commit a crime in the belief that the strike is morally right.