Transit Strike

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

However, w/r/t these state-employee unions, there is a New York law that forbids them from striking, because their strike is against the public interest (and their employers are essentially the taxpayers).

Professor X wrote:

And as far as any issue of whether I support a strike that puts the lives of others at risk, of course not. I do, however, think that they shouldn’t be degraded for asking for money as this goes against the way you apparently feel about oil companies…yet the majority of the posts revolve around them being “token takers” who make too much as it is. I don’t understand the double standard here. [/quote]

You must be confusing me with someone else. A double standard would require that I made the statements against which you are contrasting my position.

At any rate, the situations aren’t good comparisons. If the city is completely free to fire all the people who walk out (and I’m not sure about this - I think there are some labor laws that restrict this ability by employers, but I’m not a labor lawyer), then it’s a better comparison to a market. In a market, people can choose to consume less or not at all, or get substitute goods, or both. So if the city can fire all the walk-outs, and refuse to negotiate with them, and hire all non-union replacements, then it’s analogous. “Labor” is a very protected good.

It’s an additional problem that you have the unions negotiating against the government - represented by the taxpayer. The mayor could have just caved to the demand, snug with the knowledge that he’d never face the ill effects because it would be borne by the next generation of taxpayers who had to fund these pension demands. Stockholders and Boards are much better guardians of their own money and interests than are politicians and voters.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

I don’t like the economics of this strike, and I think the union’s position is absurd.

And, it’s illegal.

Professor X wrote:

Why do you think their position is absurd? This is honestly the part I don’t understand from you. You are FOR large businesses making as much money as possible, but god forbid a “token taker” try to get paid more and get around the system as well? When many poor people were seeing large problems from the increase in gas prices, all we heard were cheers from every one of you. Something just doesn’t make sense.[/quote]

It’s absurd from the perspective of the taxpayers who would be funding the early-retirement fixed-pension benefits that are the heart of the union’s demands. If you don’t think it’s absurd for taxpayers to subsidize 30 years of sitting around at half-pay by former public employees, please explain why not.

The fact that poor people are bearing the brunt of the problem from this strike was brought up only to contrast the ridiculousness of your and vroom’s claims that people against the strike were somehow against poor people making money.

This issue is essentially poor people vs. poor people. To the extent future tax dollars are used to fund these pensions, and then less money is left over for social services, I want to make certain you know whom to blame.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

W/r/t health insurance, I would love it for doctors to be able to band together to negotiate with the insurance companies – that makes sense from an economic perspective. However, it’s been found to violate those pesky anti-trust laws. Perhaps they should form a union instead…

Anyway, health insurance is very complex. We should start another thread on that and we can argue about whether individuals should be in control of their own policies or whether the employer-provided policies that are incented by current tax laws make sense.

Professor X wrote:

It might make a good thread, however, let’s not pretend that I haven’t brought that issue up several times before.[/quote]

When did I pretend something?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Also while on the subject what does United Air, Delta, GM, Delphi, Ford and just about every other manufacturing company in this country have in common? They are all being crushed by their unions. What these unions fail to see is that soon they will not have jobs to strike from b/c they are runing American Business.

While I can get behind most everything else in your post, this one appears to be a bit of a stretch.

American business is not being ruined because of unions. Yes, I know, it helps, but it is only one staw on the camels back. Don’t let your hatred of unions allow you to dump all of this on the unions.

North American jobs are going to countries that have cheaper labor. By this I don’t mean a few dollars an hour less. I mean much cheaper labor. People are always going to fight for a livable wage, no matter what they do, and any livable wage “over here” will be too much when competing with “over there”.

[/quote]

vroom,

Somehow Japanese car companies are coming here and building plants in states that don’t have rigid labor laws that support unions – check out Tennessee and Alabama. At the same time, Detroit is floundering under the weight of its fixed-benefit pensions and health plans, and some other deals struck with labor, such as paying people not to work (at reduced wages, because they weren’t allowed to fire them).

While unions may not be the entirety of the problem, they are certainly quite a large part of it.

NY mediators say transit union agrees to end strike
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051222/ts_nm/transport_newyork_dc
[i]
NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York state mediators said on Thursday transit workers union leaders had agreed to direct their striking members to return to work and both union and transit authorities would resume negotiations on a contract.

State law prohibits public sector employees from striking and a court on Tuesday fined the union $1 million a day for the duration of the strike, while workers faced the loss of two days pay for each day they remained on strike.
[/i]
I wonder if they, the union, felt they weren’t being negotiated with in good faith or something? I haven’t followed closely… but the resumption of work couple with the resumption of negotiations could point in that direction.

Boston, the issue is car sales. The Japanese have done very well in this regard, displacing traditional domestic sales.

Also, the Japanese built plants in the US as a strategy to avoid protectionism when they started to do such a good job selling here.

Now, their products are made here by American workers, so avoiding their products is silly.

To put things into perspective, from a conservative viewpoint, the jobs are shifting from the poorly managed companies like GM and Ford to well managed companies like Nissan and Toyota.

It’s purely economic forces… and whether or not unions play any part in it is just political posturing by both parties.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

You must be confusing me with someone else. A double standard would require that I made the statements against which you are contrasting my position.[/quote]

I was actually speaking in general about this thread. Many times these union workers have been called out. I don’t even agree with the strike, but I don’t understand, still, why anyone would be against them trying to get more money. You could even vote “no”, but why would you be against them trying?

[quote]
At any rate, the situations aren’t good comparisons. If the city is completely free to fire all the people who walk out (and I’m not sure about this - I think there are some labor laws that restrict this ability by employers, but I’m not a labor lawyer), then it’s a better comparison to a market. In a market, people can choose to consume less or not at all, or get substitute goods, or both. So if the city can fire all the walk-outs, and refuse to negotiate with them, and hire all non-union replacements, then it’s analogous. “Labor” is a very protected good.[/quote]

In which case, what is the real moral difference between this and the act of “choosing” to go to a different gas station when prices are too high…even if they are all too high?

Some could argue they are becoming one in the same with regards to politicians.

There are many expenses made by the US government that I don’t agree with. I personally would love to pay no taxes at all, but since that isn’t happening, unless this will somehow bankrupt America and put us relatively deeper in debt than we already are to the point of no return, again, why is this such a large issue? There are millionaires who will live the rest of their lives on a personal island in spite of the fact that they overcharged people for products simply because they could. What is the true moral difference here?

The poor are always the ones hit hardest, whether this conversation is about pensions or gas prices. Why is it you suddenly care about the poor people now?

[quote]
This issue is essentially poor people vs. poor people. To the extent future tax dollars are used to fund these pensions, and then less money is left over for social services, I want to make certain you know whom to blame.[/quote]

Oh, so you are against this because of social services for poor people? That is what has conservatives all riled up? They are all really really pissed because there won’t be as many social programs? Good one, BB.

Apparently, this strike will cause all of those social programs (that are just waiting to be put into place any moment now) to never be employed.

[quote]vroom wrote:
NY mediators say transit union agrees to end strike
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051222/ts_nm/transport_newyork_dc
[i]
NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York state mediators said on Thursday transit workers union leaders had agreed to direct their striking members to return to work and both union and transit authorities would resume negotiations on a contract.

State law prohibits public sector employees from striking and a court on Tuesday fined the union $1 million a day for the duration of the strike, while workers faced the loss of two days pay for each day they remained on strike.
[/i]
I wonder if they, the union, felt they weren’t being negotiated with in good faith or something? I haven’t followed closely… but the resumption of work couple with the resumption of negotiations could point in that direction.[/quote]

Either way, it was fun to watch. New York is too crowded in my opinion to begin with. If your entire work force depends on city provided transportation, you are just asking for problems eventually.

[quote]crumungen wrote:

Your being brainwashed by big biz into a lower standard of living.[/quote]

Is this a joke? Our standard of living is incredibly high. Most of the world would say it is too high.

“big biz” thrives on people having a high standard of living so they can sell their products.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Either way, it was fun to watch. New York is too crowded in my opinion to begin with. If your entire work force depends on city provided transportation, you are just asking for problems eventually.[/quote]

This is an excellent point. It also conflicts with much of the left wing dogma that encourages public transit as it is more fuel efficient, yada yada yada.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

At any rate, the situations aren’t good comparisons. If the city is completely free to fire all the people who walk out (and I’m not sure about this - I think there are some labor laws that restrict this ability by employers, but I’m not a labor lawyer), then it’s a better comparison to a market. In a market, people can choose to consume less or not at all, or get substitute goods, or both. So if the city can fire all the walk-outs, and refuse to negotiate with them, and hire all non-union replacements, then it’s analogous. “Labor” is a very protected good.

Professor X wrote:

In which case, what is the real moral difference between this and the act of “choosing” to go to a different gas station when prices are too high…even if they are all too high?[/quote]

The point was that I don’t think they can do that, so it’s not the same.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Stockholders and Boards are much better guardians of their own money and interests than are politicians and voters.

Professor X wrote:

Some could argue they are becoming one in the same with regards to politicians.[/quote]

Except that Boards of Directors have legal duties to act in the best interests of stockholders, and can be sued or thrown in jail, depending on the circumstances, for not doing so.

Politicians can be voted out of office, but not by the future generations of voters whom they’re burdening to give out goodies to this generation.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

It’s absurd from the perspective of the taxpayers who would be funding the early-retirement fixed-pension benefits that are the heart of the union’s demands. If you don’t think it’s absurd for taxpayers to subsidize 30 years of sitting around at half-pay by former public employees, please explain why not.

Professor X wrote:

There are many expenses made by the US government that I don’t agree with. I personally would love to pay no taxes at all, but since that isn’t happening, unless this will somehow bankrupt America and put us relatively deeper in debt than we already are to the point of no return, again, why is this such a large issue? There are millionaires who will live the rest of their lives on a personal island in spite of the fact that they overcharged people for products simply because they could. What is the true moral difference here?[/quote]

It will put the cities/states relatively deeper into debt and closer to “bankruptcy.” And again, because you’re dealing with a fixed pie and because dollars are fungible, it means fewer dollars for other priorities.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

The fact that poor people are bearing the brunt of the problem from this strike was brought up only to contrast the ridiculousness of your and vroom’s claims that people against the strike were somehow against poor people making money.

Professor X wrote:

The poor are always the ones hit hardest, whether this conversation is about pensions or gas prices. Why is it you suddenly care about the poor people now?[/quote]

I didn’t say it was my main concern. I said it made your position untenable.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

This issue is essentially poor people vs. poor people. To the extent future tax dollars are used to fund these pensions, and then less money is left over for social services, I want to make certain you know whom to blame.

Professor X wrote:

Oh, so you are against this because of social services for poor people? That is what has conservatives all riled up? They are all really really pissed because there won’t be as many social programs? Good one, BB.[/quote]

Again, see above. This was a critique of your position, not advancing my (or conservatives’, to the extent I speak for them) main concerns.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Apparently, this strike will cause all of those social programs (that are just waiting to be put into place any moment now) to never be employed. [/quote]

Or cutbacks in existing services that will be forced by budgetary constraints. I’m sure those would concern you as well. [Again, I would be concerned depending on the program, but this whole line of reasoning was a critique of your position, not a justification for mine.]

Why would anyone even allow a city to become so overcrowded, go live there or work there?

It almost seems irresponsible doesn’t it?

For the clueless, I’m kidding, but for the less than clueless, I’m sure you can see the parallels.

seeing as this is the age of exponential law suits, i wonder if the small businesses will attempt to sue the union for lost sales.

Took the bike in again today. Left earlier and it only took about 1 hour 10 minutes. Ride home last night took 1 hour 20 minutes.

A couple of opinions about previous posts:

-The more you lift (assuming you do it effectively) the larger/stronger you get. You lift often and get big and strong. Good for you!
What if some machine were created that could transform muscle from one individual to another? How would you like it if all the skinny people started yelling–“They’re bigger than me! Why do they get to be so big +strong and I stay skinny–it’s unfair!” Should we hook you up and take your muscle away and give it to the skinny dudes? You have more, they have less (because you worked for it) shouldn’t you give something up because you have so much and they have so little?! You’ve been busting your ass for YEARS but, hell, you can sacrifice, right? So, your arms will shrink from 16 to 14 but c’mon, they need it, right?

-I don’t like unions but they are not the sole (or even primary) reason many
companies have gone bankrupt or lost market-share. Poor design/quality
compared to Japanese cars is a main reason. Japanese autoworkers are quite
well paid and somehow Toyota and Honda are doing well.

-We aren’t losing that many jobs to India. I don’t have exact statistics but the number of jobs we are gaining here (even in fields like technology) as opposed to jobs being exported leaves the US with a net gain—the only exception being call centers. Over the last 20-30 years we’ve been moving from an industrial economy to a services industry.

-The main living expense in NYC which is disproportiantely high to the rest of the US is housing (and parking if you have a car). I work in midtown and live in Queens. I doubt if any MTA employees are living on the Upper West Side or Upper East Side. A cheap place there (2 bedroom) is probably 750k with monthly maintenance of at least $1200.
The average salary in NYC is < avg. MTA salary. You can afford to live in
parts of Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx and Staten Island if you earn 50k. Probably
can’t afford a house but few can.

-Why is ‘big business’ evil? I work for an investment bank where many people
earn > 1m per year. They do not plot to destroy the poor. They don’t try
to screw the middle-class. They are too busy working. On their time-off
they enjoy spending time with their families not wreaking global economic chaos. Also, what makes a small-business morally superior to WalMart? Say a little Mom+Pop store does well and opens a second store. That store does well and they open a 3rd. At what point to the transform into an evil corporation.

-No one works in a booth handing out tokens. There are no more tokens. Just MetroCards.

-The one thing I have yet to hear is WHY the workers deserve more money/benefits. What improvements have occurred? Innovations? Increased efficiencies? Have they met or exceeded client expectations? I don’t think so. I ride the subways every day and they are consistently unreliable and
have shown no improvement over the last 5 years. I would never expect my
company to give everyone the same raise across the board. Why should I get the same as the guy who does nothing? You should be rewarded for doing a good job–not for merely showing up at your job. The only thing I hear Toussant saying is “We get up at 3AM” So? This is the best you can come up with?! We get up early?!

-Considering all the debate over fighting wars over oil–tranis/subways are excellent for mass transit.

lesotho, nice post, thanks for the insights.

lesotho72, I’m glad you took the time to write the post. I was too lazy to write what you wrote. You made good points in plain english. One more thing to add: these MTA workers are some of the nastiest people in terms of customer service. The way they treat riders dosn’t inspire sympathy from me. I’ve been riding subways since 1984, and I’m sick of their shit. I really need to stop thinking about this shit, it just drives me up the walls.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Also while on the subject what does United Air, Delta, GM, Delphi, Ford and just about every other manufacturing company in this country have in common? They are all being crushed by their unions. What these unions fail to see is that soon they will not have jobs to strike from b/c they are runing American Business.

While I can get behind most everything else in your post, this one appears to be a bit of a stretch.

American business is not being ruined because of unions. Yes, I know, it helps, but it is only one staw on the camels back. Don’t let your hatred of unions allow you to dump all of this on the unions.

North American jobs are going to countries that have cheaper labor. By this I don’t mean a few dollars an hour less. I mean much cheaper labor. People are always going to fight for a livable wage, no matter what they do, and any livable wage “over here” will be too much when competing with “over there”.

[/quote]

Vey true I must admit I was a bit upset last night knowing what I would have to face on my way to work and home today. Unions are not the entire problem but they are without question a part of it. There is plenty of blame to go around.

[quote]oriensus wrote:
lesotho72, I’m glad you took the time to write the post. I was too lazy to write what you wrote. You made good points in plain english. One more thing to add: these MTA workers are some of the nastiest people in terms of customer service. The way they treat riders dosn’t inspire sympathy from me. I’ve been riding subways since 1984, and I’m sick of their shit. I really need to stop thinking about this shit, it just drives me up the walls.[/quote]

All I have to say is spend a day on any train other than the 4,5,6 or the 2,3. I think that proves most MTA workers should have been fired long before the strike!

[quote]lesotho72 wrote:
-We aren’t losing that many jobs to India. I don’t have exact statistics but the number of jobs we are gaining here (even in fields like technology) as opposed to jobs being exported leaves the US with a net gain—the only exception being call centers.[/quote]

I know it’s slightly off topic, but I have to disagree on this point. I’ve read several articles, including the one I cited the below information from that state a significant number of job slots have moved in a lot of different career fields have moved to India. These career fields include: Software Engineering, Chip Design, Analytics, Copyrighting, Optimization, Pay-Per Click, Analyzing Server Logs.

[quote]lesotho72 wrote:
-Why is ‘big business’ evil? I work for an investment bank where many people
earn > 1m per year. They do not plot to destroy the poor. They don’t try
to screw the middle-class. They are too busy working. On their time-off
they enjoy spending time with their families not wreaking global economic chaos. Also, what makes a small-business morally superior to WalMart? Say a little Mom+Pop store does well and opens a second store. That store does well and they open a 3rd. At what point to the transform into an evil corporation.[/quote]

I just had to express my agreement with the above statement. Although I don’t agree with all of Wal-Mart’s business practices, I do agree with the spirit of the above statement.

[quote]lesotho72 wrote:
-The one thing I have yet to hear is WHY the workers deserve more money/benefits. What improvements have occurred? Innovations? Increased efficiencies? Have they met or exceeded client expectations? I don’t think so. I ride the subways every day and they are consistently unreliable and
have shown no improvement over the last 5 years. I would never expect my
company to give everyone the same raise across the board. Why should I get the same as the guy who does nothing? You should be rewarded for doing a good job–not for merely showing up at your job. The only thing I hear Toussant saying is “We get up at 3AM” So? This is the best you can come up with?! We get up early?![/quote]

Amen.

And didn’t the Union order them to go back to work today?

Well everyone this thread was fun but the strike is over and Graf on 89th and 1st is having a “The Strike is Over Party” with free draft beer 7-10 so I got to run!
The only thng better than free beer would be seeing Roger Tusant in jail.

Free beer?

Isn’t that a mythical entity? Damn, maybe there is something good about strikes after all!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Either way, it was fun to watch. New York is too crowded in my opinion to begin with. If your entire work force depends on city provided transportation, you are just asking for problems eventually.

This is an excellent point. It also conflicts with much of the left wing dogma that encourages public transit as it is more fuel efficient, yada yada yada.[/quote]

I may be misunderstanding him, but AFAIK, he is not criticizing “public transit” in general. He is criticizing the fact that in NYC there are no viable alternatives to MTA specifically.

Public Transit IS more fuel efficient, reduces pollution, improves quality of life, incites exercise, reduces stress, reduces costs from building and maintaining roadways, etc, etc, etc. It is a very good solution for many problems that face our country, from obesity to pollution.

Everything about public transit is good, and it should definitely become the primary means of transportation for EVERYBODY in the world, with private transportation only being used as a backup, for lugging heavy stuff or for some recreational travel.

The problem is that MTA has a monopoly inside NYC, which creates a single point of failure.