@chris_ottawa, Im not sure how you got “what argument can you build against it?” from
In response to one of your posts about CAT.
If anything i was building an argument FOR CAT by looking at it critically with the aim of generating ideas on how much benefit you would actually get from it (knowing that there will be some benefit just wondering how much as these are the questions that drive the scientific research)
They are detailed and clearly written in the book Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky and Kraemer (transmutation of motor units, transformation of training work, training accomodation, strength gradient, etc.)
Zatsiorsky says you need to have the highest acceleration only in the amortization phase (he says “accent”), not in the whole movement.
I don’t understand you now. My modified block periodization contains a wave characteristic where the weights in each training day varies considerably. Little difficulty in the form 65-72.5% of RM compensates for a higher number of reps and sets and a strictly 1.5 second pause in each reps in the amortization phase. For all percentages of RM, the Prilepin’s table applies (with 2 exceptions). I am convinced that the stimulus of training is and will be sufficient.
I just gave an example. It’s most logical that at the speed deadlift can you be more easily injured than in the classic variants. Fast movement with a higher weight can cause, for example, spasm in the area the lumbar spine. Everything confirms the situation if a lifter doesn’t know the proper technique of the deadlift.
An absolutely perfect example. I agree.
Perhaps I should have said “can be built against it” or something to that effect, I did not intend to imply that you are arguing against CAT or any other form of explosive lifting because obviously you are not. However, you are trying to guess how much benefit there is to be had from training in this style and I don’t really see any value in that kind of thinking unless you are going to run an actual study, it’s basically a dead argument. gaelic is the only one opposed and it seems that he misunderstands certain concepts here. We can theorize and imagine all we want, but in the end we won’t know anything more as a result.
If there is something worth considering with regards to fast vs. slow lifts it would be whether higher RPE work (not necessarily using RPE but pushing closer to failure, 1-2 reps in the tank) is more effective than submaximal work where the majority of sets are far from failure. Mike Tuchscherer used to program all @8 or @9 RPE work for himself and everyone he coaches but in more recent times he has been using submaximal volume work for some people, like 75%x4x6 sets for example. It I usually preceded by a single at 90%+. He has said that some people respond better to the submaximal work that all high RPE work. I think part of that has to do with technical ability, if your technique is not very good then it will be hard to improve it by grinding out hard sets. There must be other factors involved as well.
I have the book. It lists the max effort method, repeated effort method, and submaximal effort method as the methods that can and should be used to develop strength while the dynamic effort method uses weights that are too light to generate sufficient force for strength development and is only useful for developing power, such as is throwing or jumping sports. What we are talking about here is the submaximal effort method, with maximal intent to move the bar. How could you possibly achieve a greater training benefit with less effort? The dynamic effort method as performed at Westside barbell appears to be a misnomer, watch some of their videos (I linked some before and you said you didn’t care to watch) and you will see that the bar isn’t actually moving that fast.
On which page or under which topic?
As Andy Bolton said, “never sacrifice tension for speed”. Move the bar as fast as your technique permits. This also isn’t a training method for beginners, keep that in mind.
Big training volume?
Unfortunately, I don’t know write it. I have his book in Czech translation, which differs with individual chapters on individual pages in English. I think it’s in the third chapter of first part “Athlete-Specific Strength”. Alternatively, you use the list of terms at the end of the book.
If I’m not mistaken, Andy Bolton had a lot injuries of the deadlift. This isn’t a good inspiration.
if we’d had this discussion 6 month ago i might well have proposed this for my masters degree thesis. Ill keep it in mind if i ever consider a PhD.
Take a heavy bench. Heavy enough to feel something.
Train some crazy way you never trained before for 9 weeks.
Take it easy for 1 week.
Try that “heavy bench” from 10 weeks ago.
Method Studied!
Man, I have written yearlong periodization (48 weeks “only” the bench press) for myself. For example, my accumulation block lasts for 36 weeks. This is a hard test of patience. 
Show me someone who deadlifts over 1000lbs. and has no injuries. And what is your point anyway, that we shouldn’t maintain tension?
If you need more training volume to achieve the same result then that does not support your argument at all. You are the only person here opposed to the concept of applying maximal force into all working reps, even Sheiko (who you have quoted and referred to numerous times) uses low intensity speed work. What makes you think you know better than him? Neither Zatiorsky’s book not Prilepin’s chart were made with powerlifting in mind.
I believe there is already a fair amount of data on this topic, see what else you can find of relevance.
Im looking in to the effects of fatigue on limb strength asymmetry, not as exciting as training interventions but apparently interventions are particularly hard to get good data from as so many people drop out of the study.
@gaelic, do you perform all your submaximal work at the same velocity as your 1RM?
No need to. I’m with you on that one.
I didn’t figure i needed to go into an in depth explanation on that, but I wouldn’t throw in split squats or one legged rdl’s into my programming, with the aim of increasing my bench press. However, if l felt that lack of volume due to insufficient work capacity was holding back progress, I wouldn’t and don’t hesitate in getting creative at all. Airdyne sprints superset with pressing has done wonders for my work capacity and recovery. I’m all about building a bigger base. Try programming burpees in between each rep of a bent over row for a prep block and see how much easier it is to maintain a longer TUT in a following accumulation block. Not sure what type of periodization you employ, but I don’t feel that the blocks even have to be this specific, unless a person was at an elite level or very close to comp.
All I’m really saying is that your training needs to be specific to your goals but doesn’t have to resemble a powerlifting meet (or whatever other sport someone is training for) to be effective, and there is no reason why you can’t use variations of the competition lifts.
I’m basically using block periodization at this point, alternating between volume and intensity blocks until it’s time to peak for competition.
The Theory of Developing Maximal Strength
Posted by Louie Simmons
"What is Maximal Strength?
The maximal strength of a muscle or a group of muscles in a given movement equals the highest external resistance an athlete can overcome or hold with full voluntary mobilization of his or her neuromuscular system according to Platonov (1997) and Tidow (1990). This definition also is found in Science of Sports Training by Thomas Kurz (2016).
There are four methods to test maximal strength: eccentric, concentric, isometric and electro stimulation. When testing your maximal strength, it is described as the Maximal Effort Method, which is the most effective method for increasing both intramuscular and inter muscular coordination. The M-E Method is also recommended when you are attempting to become as strong as possible. This means lifting a one rep max (1RM).
Doing two or three reps builds strength endurance or submaximal resistance. Siff and Verkhoshansky (1999) and Zatsiorsky (1995) in their respective studies said doing four to seven reps builds heavy resistance; moderately heavy permits eight to 12 reps; moderate resistance permits 13 to 18 reps; light resistance allows 19 to 25 reps, and very light permits more than 25 reps.
As you become stronger, explosive strength that is displayed in fast velocity and speed strength in intermediate velocity will be improved when combined with the Dynamic Method—training 72 hours later for both upper and lower body exercises.
_ Many coaches are fearful of M-E training. If you are familiar with the actions of the Golgi tendon receptors, then you will know that they are very sensitive to the forces developed in the muscle. If the tension in the muscle rises too fast, the Golgi tendon reflex evokes the inhibition of muscle action. This simply means a body will stop producing higher muscular forces to protect itself. The same type of protective action does not happen during football when two athletes are tackling one another. This means M-E Method is far safer than contact football. Most injuries happen when the muscles around the joint are not strong due to insufficient weight training._
How to Use the M-E Method
If you are not sure of yourself to practice M-E training with both eccentric and concentric actions combined or singular, simply use isometric training. Isometric training can be employed by pulling, pressing or squatting against a bar loaded to a weight the athlete cannot overcome and exert force from 80 percent to maximal for two to four seconds for a few sets at three or four positions. The maximal strength gain is the position where the force is exerted, but it can radiate up and down 15 degrees as well.
Isometrics are broken into two types: concentric ad eccentric actions. A concentric isometric action happens when you push or pull on an immovable object. To perform an eccentric isometric action, the athlete must hold a heavy weight in a fixed position.
Other M-E Methods: Electro Stimulation
In studies by the Russians using electro stimulation to a given muscle or muscle group, they found it can deliver effective training stimulus due to the fact that the electro stimulation can produce a stronger contraction than the athlete can produce on his or her own. This is sometimes referred to as Russian Stim. This method of strength training has been implemented in many sports including weight lifting, track and field, boxing and even rowing.
The effects of electro stimulation depend on the types and frequency of use as well as the type of muscle fibers—fast or slow—you are imposing on. Westside has used electro stimulation since the 1990s. Westside used the same method that Dr. Siff used on the Belgian SHW weight lifter Surge Reding. After weight training, he used 0.5 to two seconds with very high-intensity contractions with 10- to 15-second rest intervals. This was done for five minutes for each muscle group. More on this subject can be found in Supertraining (2009).
M-E Method with Resistance
There have been several studies done while lowering or eccentric over loading. It is done by lowering a barbell with from 10 percent to 60 percent more weight than the lifter can overcome concentrically in a slow as possible motion to build eccentric strength. Westside has never seen a study that contributed to concentric strength by doing maximal eccentric loading.
In the real world, eccentrics does two things: 1) It makes the athlete sore as eccentrics tear down muscle fiber, and 2) Body builders will lower their weight slowly as it increases muscle size.
(Special note: Westside has made superior strength gains by implementing over speed eccentrics by attaching strong rubber bands over the bar.)
M-E Concentric Method
The deadlift can be an M-E with maximal loads due to lifting the barbell off the floor first.
Special Concentric Methods
From a low position squat, press or pull from a power rack off pins. Goodmorning, squat or press-off suspended chains at several heights. Lifting weights from the bottom without an eccentric phase eliminates reversible muscle action. Three out of the five classical lifts start concentrically—clean, snatch, and deadlift—while the squat and bench press start with an eccentric action.
M-E Method and Planning
Westside’s system calls for an M-E day for benching on Wednesday and squat and deadlift on Monday. Westside makes new records more than 90 percent of the time for the entire workout. At each workout a different M-E lift is switched each week. The reason for this is that if you lift at 90 percent of a 1RM for a three-week wave, you would have diminishing returns. This is proven by science. It’s called the Law of Accommodation.
Pick a series of M-E lifts and switch each Wednesday. According to the force velocity curve, strength is measured in the time it takes to complete the lift, not in the amount of weight or the resistance on the bar. For an M-E system, Westside recommends that you drastically change the amount of weight on the M-E barbell exercise.
Here are two examples for the squat or deadlift: 1) One week you should squat off a very low bar, close stance with no gear or belt. The author made a 535 and a 555 on a low box (12-inch) with a modified safety squat bar for two all-time records. At the meet it allowed a 900-pound and a 920-pound squat, the second best on the Top 10 list. 2) By pulling a box deadlift of 570-pounds with a five chambered bar that has the bar four inches below floor level the author pulled 716 at 220-pounds eight months after breaking his L-5 vertebrate.
How is this possible you might ask? Both the low-box squat and the four-inch deficit deadlift required a longer time period than the contest lifts, and because the extra range of motion is greater than the contest lifts, motion velocity decreases due to the fact that the force-posture relationship is much more difficult because of the greater range of motion. For the competitive lifts, you have one all-time best. But if you only max out on the competitive lifts, you will find it impossible to break your record due to the Law of Accommodation. To solve the dilemma you must devise special exercises to solve the problem of accommodation. Westside has 26 men over 800 pounds and four 900-pound deadlifts, yet we do not do regular deadlifts, meaning deadlifts off the floor.
The contest lift is the ultimate test; the special exercises are the builders. Westside will use three positions in the power rack to work up to and break a new record. Westside also uses three different band tensions: mini, monster and light-band-quaded. Thee rates are 170, 250 and 350 at lock. This gives the lifter nine records to break. The deadlifts on the floor are always with accommodating resistance with tensions of 220 with minis and 280 with monsters. The plates sit on the floor, or on two-inch mats or four-inch mats. A second method is to stand on two-inch or four-inch mats using either or both sumo or conventional style for an all-time record. Other methods are ultra-wide sumo and ultra-wide sumo with straight legs and an arched back with a slow start.
For overloading the low back and to build technique, you should deadlift while sitting on a box with the starting angle at the same level of the hips you start the deadlift from. Westside breaks records on the special barbell exercise at over a 90 percent rate. All the pulls must take at least the same amount of time to complete as a contest lift. The top lift should be from about the seventh attempt. This would be optional according to Prilepin’s data (1974).
The M-E squatting is also on Monday. But, remember, max out on only one barbell exercise. It can be a box squat with one of many specialty bars, 14-inch chamber, bow bar, safety squat bar, or front squat. Choose a different bar each week. Most bars will yield approximately the same weight. By using 80 pounds to 300 pounds of chain, work up to a new all-time record on a pre-determined height. For more eccentric over speed, use bands. Seventy to 700 pounds are used at Westside plus bar weight.
Here’s an example: AJ made a strength speed squat with 700 pounds of band tension plus 510 pounds of barbell weight. His record was 1,210 pounds at lockout off box. AJ also made 740-pound bar weight and 440-pound band tension, which equated to 1,180 pounds at top. At contest time AJ made a 1,205-pound meet squat. The special squat off a box took as long as or longer than the contest squat. This was much like the training experience the author had with the low-box squat to achieve his contest best by constantly rotating special exercises or combinations of resistance.
Westside suggests you choose a special exercise like the low box close stance with no gear where total weight is 555 pounds. Or you might try a rack pull on pins in the Westside Power where the record is 765 pounds. This is a large contrast—over 200 pounds—and switches from a special squat to a special deadlift. This is a very different exercise and completely vanquishes the possibility of accommodation.
Remember, strength is measured in velocity or the time it takes to complete the movement. This is very important as you must expect great force for at least the same time as it takes to make a contest lift.
After experimenting with several special exercises, simply eliminate the exercises that do not contribute to raising your contest lifts and rotate five or six special exercises each week while constantly breaking your all-time record on a weekly pace. This is how Westside breaks new records each and every week throughout the yearly plan, while others will maybe break a record or two close to their contest.
It is very important to make some changes with the exercises, range of motion, or change the band or chain resistance. Normally for each movement there are angular positions at which the maximal values of the Fmm can be reached. But by attaching chain and/or bands, this angular position can be altered to change the sticking points of the lift. You can do it by using bands, which will provide greater reversible muscular actions and provide a great concentric action to overcome a sticking point.
Remember, the heaviest weight that is lifted through a full range of joint motion cannot be greater than the strength at the weakest point. But adding more acceleration can break that so-called sticking point.
Think about this: Why can the athlete bench 300 to 400 pounds, but cannot complete the lift with 425 pounds? The barbell moved too slowly to make it past the mini-max or sticking point. By attaching a large number of bands it will also build a very strong start. The Central Nervous System (CNS) will comprehend the need to exert more force on the bar to complete the lockout as it recognizes the entire load comprising of barbell weight and accommodating resistance is much heavier at lockout.
To summarize, max out on special exercises that are more difficult than the classical lifts. If you miss a classical lift in training it can be very damaging to the athlete psychologically. But if you fail to complete a special barbell exercises, it is just a lift.
To finalize, the M-E workout must be 72 hours from the high barbell volume Dynamic workout. The barbell exercise should be rotated each week. After experimenting for six to eight months you will find the mostly less than 10 special barbell exercises that work best for you. Eighty percent of the total volume should be made up of small special exercise.
The List of Exercises
Box squats Add bands
Rack pulls Add chains
Box pulls Change stance
Goodmornings Change bar
Isometrics Concentric max
Bench Press Exercises
Pin Presses Standing press
Board Press Concentric max
Floor Press Bands
Incline Chains
Decline Isometric
There are countless combinations to choose from. Remember, do the ones that work, not just the ones you like.
If someone asks where your sticking point is in the bench, squat or deadlift, everyone has an answer. But sticking points should change from time to time by correcting or changing your mini max. A mini max occurs where external resistance is maximal at the point where muscular strength is minimal.
This can be altered by accommodation and limiting the time the barbell is at the mini max. This is why lighter weight is not affected at mini max due to greater bar velocity."
@chris_ottawa @FlatsFarmer @Thorney @guineapig @theonecamko @Kniebuigkoning
Eddie Hall?
I think you still don’t understand me or you’re lazy understand the context.
I’m not saying that speed work is unnecessary in everything, but it’s useless for the powerlifting. Relevant studies published, for example, by Zatsiorsky, are evidence of what I am still saying… It’s better not to be a sheep.
Your question makes no sense. No one in the world has the same speed at 1RM and in the submaximal sets (work).
Perhaps you can share your knowledge with Sheiko and improve the results of his athletes. The sort of speed work that I’m doing is heavier than most of your current training, so maybe your training is useless for powerlifting.
@gaelic, The question does make sense.
“Do you perform all your submaximal work at the same velocity as your 1RM?”
Ill take your response of:
To mean that, No you dont perform your submaximal work sets at the same velocity as your 1RM.
Which means you probably lift your submaximal work sets at a higher velocity than your 1RM.
So, why do you perform submaximal work at a higher velocity than your maximal lifting when you’ve repeatedly stated that lifting submaximal loads at a higher velocity than maximal lifting will not improve a RAW powerlifting bench press?
Is this a serious reply? Eddie managing to finish a show was an anomaly
Training programs by Sheiko improved my strength in the last year quite a lot. And I didn’t do any speed work.
You have only a better bench, otherwise squat and deadlift I have a better one. You are 12 years older than me and you are training longer than me, so it’s a shame for you. LOL
Another shame is for you that I am not the powerlifter, which I have written several times, while you are the powerlifter. LOL
I’m sorry, I read your question yesterday in a hurry.
I didn’t write anything like this, you are distorting the context. I wrote that the training of the explosive strength is unnecessary for the raw lifter, because her can’t use in any competition or cup. I also wrote that Zatsiorsky in one study stated that explosive strength or explosive movement almost not at all doesn’t improve the raw strength.
If I’m not mistaken, Eddie Hall didn’t have a serious injury from the deadlift. He lift to more than 1,000 lbs on the deadlift, and that was the context of Chris Ottawa’s question. I don’t know why you’re wondering.
I don’t mean it offensive now, but I don’t understand why most of you are like sheep who blindly believe everything without looking for counter-arguments. I probably never understand this American mentality.