Training Methods - Sheiko, WSB, And Others - Discussion, Arguments

Training Powerlifting
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If you are a beginner (or an advanced beginner), will improve you performance virtually anything.

How do you use explosive strength (explosive movement) when you have to make a mandatory pause in the amortization phase on the bench press in any proper competition? Explain to me.

Yesterday I read one article in which was:

"Okay, so this “CAT” idea sounds great, but what does science say? Glad you asked. This study examined the effects on strength after training for three weeks of the bench press with maximal speed (CAT) and a self-selected slower pushing speed. There were 20 total subjects, 10 trained in a CAT style on the bench press, the other half with a self-selected speed. Both groups trained with 85 percent of their one-repetition max, twice a week.

Prior to the commencement of training and after cessation of the three weeks of training, pushing speed and one repetition max were measured. The group that trained in a CAT style increased their bench press speed by 2.2 percent and strength by 10.2 percent, the self-selected group showed no improvements in either category…

(Padulo, J. J., Mignogna, P. P., Mignardi, S. S., Tonni, F. F., & D’Ottavio, S. S. (2012). Effect of different pushing speeds on bench press. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 33(5), 376-380.)"

Interestingly, wasn’t mentioned performance, diet and physical composition of the research participants. So, a lot of essential and relevant information is missing, which isn’t a good business card. It doesn’t make a good impression on me.

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Bro!

CAT group get bench press max to go up 10 percent!

Self selected speed group got no increase in 1 rep max.

You’re just joking around with us now, right?

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@gaelic, you need to read the whole article not just the abstract

All of this is mentioned in the methodology:

“20 resistance-trained subjects were selected for this study after the approval of the University Ethical Committee. All subjects were randomly assigned to one of the 2 groups: first group performed at fixed pushing of the 80–100% maximal speed (FPS, age 42.50±1.87 years, height 1.75±0.06 cm, weight 77.08±5.93 kg, training experience 18.83±1.87 years). The second group performed self-selected pushing speed (SPS, age 43.83±2.82 years, height 1.74±0.04 cm, weight 75.22±4.73 kg, training experience 19.33±1.37 years). The subjects were healthy without any muscular, neurological and tendinous injuries and did not report any consumption of drugs. A diet control was designed to eliminate the risk of any major differences between diets in total protein, carbohydrates, saturated and unsaturated fat and hydration in pre and post training. To make the 2 groups homogeneous with regard to their training status, none of the subjects performed any high intensity endurance activity outside their resistance training protocol. After being informed of the procedures, methods, benefits and possible risks involved in the study, each subject read and signed an informed consent form to participate in the study, which was in accordance with the ethical standards of the IJSM”

The study looks quite good from the quick skim read ive given it.

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Without irony…think about the context (maybe now I don’t understand sarcasm). I meant, of course, that the previous performance, diet and body composition of the research participants were not mentioned.

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YES they were, refer to my previous comment above

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Thanks you for more information.

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Sport Result = Technical Skill + Motor Potential

If greater rate of force production doesn’t directly contribute to Bench Press success, at the very least it’s General Physical work that increases motor potential.

Just like having big muscles or great conditioning. Or low body fat so you can get into the best weight class.

Also, it’s the best way to supplement the Max Effort Method, which is The best method, according to fancy books.

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We should change the name of this thread to “Convince gaelic That CAT is Effective”. There’s really nothing left to discuss, if someone refuses to examine the available evidence and consider opinions which contradict his own then there is no point is continuing.

Does anyone else believe that explosive strength and compensatory acceleration are irrelevant and useless for raw powerlifting?

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Just think about that sentence for a second. If the object of the sport is to lift the heaviest weight you are capable of then how is it possible that increasing force production is not useful? Seems to me like that is the whole objective. Is improved endurance not useful for running a marathon?

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Related to another thread.

More results from less volume.

This is the traditional overload and super compensate Fairy Tale.
supercompensationcurve

maxsupercompenfigure080913

You do too much volume, and too much weight, then your endocrine systems makes your muscles get gains.

Basically, you are training yourself to have a Period. Like a hormone induced period where you are emotional and can’t lift much. Then, you bounce back in time to be super strong for the meet.

In reality, the timing is hard, and sometimes you’re still on your period during the meet. That is bad. Or you do so much, you can’t crawl out of the hole you’ve dug, and you’re just overtrained. Or sometimes you get hurt. You can read the logs of sad, emo dudes grinding themselves away with excessive weight and volume. Constantly on a hormonal cycle of strength and weight fluctuations.

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On the other hand, we know

CAT works through force production.

Escalating Density makes us more powerful.

Lighter weights perfect technique.

Lifting different weights produces different effect.

If we do a little less weight, and a few less reps, we get better, faster, more forceful and more conditioned. At some point, doing less work, Way Way better (like quality wise) produces better results than more heavy, sloppy, redundant work with longer rest times.

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06011710262560×1600 1.14 MB

According to the reality based Maximum Gains model, doing just a little to little is just as effective as doing just a little too much.

And if you do just a little too little, you can do it super vigorously. With faster bar speed, better technique, shorter rest periods and greater enthusiasm. At some point, this quadruple whammy of gains beats out the gains by excessive volume. And you don’t get your period.

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I agree that this debate is no longer necessary. Because we don’t find consensus.

I believe in my training plan and the Prilepin’s table, I don’t train explosive strength or CAT, and improving myself.

BTW, how many people use the Prilepin’s table, or INOL (intensity number of lifts)?

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It makes transitioning so much easier.

I don’t see anything inaccurate about those graphs, you are physically weaker after a workout and if the training stimulus is not more than you can recover from then your level of fitness should increase once you are recovered.

It sounds to me like you are talking about the concept of intentional overreaching. Some coaches and lifters like that idea, I personally haven’t had any positive results in strength as a result of overreaching, at best you don’t get weaker and at worst it can take a few weeks to get back to where you were, but if you overreach at the end of a high volume phase it can help to increase work capacity and potentially the ability to recover. I prefer to err on the side of caution, if I’m feeling a bit beat up and my lifts are slightly down in the week before a deload then I’m not concerned but I don’t plan on it and I would definitely avoid that in a meet prep cycle. Borge Fagerli has written a lot about this, he doesn’t believe in the value of overreaching because (according to him and his data) adaptations to training occur acutely, there is no delayed adaptation effect. Of course if you throw steroids into the mix then that can throw things off because MPS will continue at a higher rate and for longer than in a natural lifter, but for strictly neural adaptations I’m not certain if that is relevant at all.

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I agree with that. That’s more or less the same as Mike Israetel’s MRV concept. Also, doing more work for no additional benefit seems like a complete waste.

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I have used both. They are somewhat applicable and useful for beginners, but Prilepins chart wasn’t created by data from the powerlifts. I do better sticking to the lower end and following my intuition. Prilepins is completely useless in regards to my deadlift. I do better sticking with the SSPT chart recommendations. If you have been lifting long enough, know your body and it’s limitations and keep accurate enough records and journals INOL is just more noise and can be limiting, if you allow it, especially if you pre-program with it. Then again, you have to know your body and it’s limitations for INOL to be of any use, otherwise it’s worthless. I suggest using the charts to find a baseline and getting to know your recovery abilities and go from there. Even then, base levels of strength, work capacity and recovery are ever changing to put much stock into fancy charts, spreadsheets, graphs, formulas, etc. I’m not going to criticize to what extent a man goes into tracking his data, but at some point a man has got to intuitively and intimately learn the capabilities of his mind and body. I’ve gotten way more out of the cliff notes I keep at the end of my sessions, than I have ever gotten out of any chart or table.

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Simple after the pause EXPLODE the weight upward by pushing as hard as possible. By explode we mean to activate as much muscle fiber as possible in the shortest amount of time. This has been settled by research over 40 years ago.

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It really may be, I can’t quite judge. It would be interesting to try her functionality on squats… From a fresh personal experience, I can say that Prilepin’s table suits me perfectly for training of the bench press. I feel like someone wrote this table for me directly.

It’s clear from the logical reasoning that explosive strength (explosive motion) can’t be done if you have to observe the competitive pause in the amortization phase.

If you look at the bench press of throwing disciplines, they use explosive strength, as they don’t observe a strict pause.

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Is it possible that the term ‘explosive’ and its meaning are getting lost in translation? I understand ‘explosive’ lifting in the context of powerlifting to mean that you are attempting to move the bar (from whatever start point) as hard and as fast as possible, and while this may not look explosive, you are still attempting to recruit as many fibers as possible, as quickly as possible, as @jbackos stated?

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Thank you - hard to explain to people who failed reading comprehension.

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Those were cool videos. In the first one, dude had some pad on his chest. Was that a real bar, or some extra whippy bar?

Making the bar flex instead of your shoulder joints flex is a smart idea.

2nd clip, guy’s butt came up, but I’d take that for a touch and go lift in the gym. It’s interesting that he’s a thrower not a lifter, doesn’t have great bench technique, but his skill and timing help him make that big lift.

Like when former thrower Chad Wesley Smith said he didn’t really know how to squat, he just stands up really fast.

3rd one was pretty silly. It looked like the dads in their 40s doing high school style workouts at my gym.