[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
OP can we get a video of you squatting? Outside of direct lower back work (extensions: start with just your body weight) do you do any core work? A sore back is sometimes a sign of a weak core putting stress on your lower back. [/quote]
This was my initial thought as well. A weak ab wall.
Second thought was a form isse/tailbone rounding. From tight adductors, glutes, hip flexors or any combination of. [/quote]
oh dear god. that is what i thought, too.
often people claim lumbar spine pain due to short / tight / inflammed hip flexors.
i always did myself an injury trying to stretch / mobilize the lumbar spine…
get some relief from rolling / releasing the top of the quad / hip flexors / digging out the muscles you can get to lining the pelvic bowl under the abs…
Squats are cool as long as you’re able to do them.
If you’re not able to do so, identify and iron out the underlying problems.
If that’s not possible for health-related reasons, I’d suggest a few workarounds.
I’ve done well with
1 GHRs
2 hyperextensions (if you move the pad a few inches below your pelvis, you can work the hammies pretty well)
3 leg press
4 cycling (HIIT-style: getting close to vomit-levels won’t hurt you)
1-3 can be done unilaterally, too. If someone has lower back problems, he should perform 3 only unilaterally.
Trap bar dead lift. And if you want to make it more quad dominant heels on plates. If you want it deep or more ROM use the low bars. Best and safest lower body lift you can do. Mimics the squat with out problems of putting weight on your back. Hard to mess up form. Much much easier on the low back. I have low back issues. Tore ligaments in it in HS never been the same. Trap bar deads are great and can go as heavy as you want/can
The only times my lower back used to get sore from legs was before I got good with my technique and overal form on the main leg movements, such as deads, squats etc.
Then again my abdominals and lower back are unusually strong compared to other parts surprisingly
Others have already said it, but what I thought here immediately:
-Hip Flexors getting tight (this may cause part of the lower back pain)
-Pelvic tilt in the wrong direction, more the deeper you go.
Technique and tightness issue, then maybe abs on top of it.
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
OP can we get a video of you squatting? Outside of direct lower back work (extensions: start with just your body weight) do you do any core work? A sore back is sometimes a sign of a weak core putting stress on your lower back. Your long layup and desk job is a recipe for a weak core. Also going very slow on the eccentric portion of your squats may save your lower back from pain as well.
I use to have to sit in my car for 20 minutes with the seat fully reclined before i could even drive because my lower back hurt so bad. Once I got stronger and did direct work for my core and lower back did low back pain become a non-issue. Sore and Pain are two different things.
Although it might seem obvious on any exercise (leg ext, leg press, lying leg curl, etc.) make a conscious effort to keep your back flat on the back rest. Decrease the weight if you have. Play around with the adjustments as well to suit your structure. [/quote]
I do abs twice a week. Once before my workout (shoulder and bi day) and once after (chest day). [/quote]
Okay you do abs twice a week. However your abs can still be a weak point. You havent trained in a long time. How long have you been training consistently? If you don’t squat and/or deadlift you are missing great opportunities to further strengthen your trunk. Do you do any direct lower back work (DL/extensions/etc.)?
[quote]IronBP wrote:
I’m just genetically tight.
[/quote]
lol, for you really believing this AND for how it can be misconstrued out of context[/quote]
Not sure what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that there’s no such thing as a person who is predisposed to having less flexible muscles?
[/quote]
Of course there is, but that’s not why you are tight. It is more a lifestyle thing (i.e. sitting all day, lack of a proper mobility/flexibility/soft tissue regimen, etc.) Don’t let this kind of thinking hold you back. However you are stretching and working on it right now is obviously not working. You need to read up on better means to opening up your hips, lengthening your hip flexors, etc.
For starters, before every lower body session do EVERY warm up exercise listed in this article and check back in here in 1 month. Don’t half ass them. See what progress you make. It shouldn’t take you more than 15 min.
The reason why I am tight is the same reason why I was tight as a spring chicken division I athlete 2 decades ago even I did all of the same stretching and core exercises as everyone else on the team. Of course there is a range of how tight I can be and how flexible I can be, and there is a certain amount of work that I will have to do to get from one end of the spectrum to the other.
I’ll try some of those exercises and add them to my routine. Flexibility isn’t keeping me from going deep. I can go plenty deep. My problems with the squat (and this thread really wasn’t about the squat) is I have really really really really long femurs. How long? 21" from the point of the hip to the front of the knee when seated. What this means is that with my thighs parallel to the ground, and my knees directly over my toes, if I fold my chest flat against my thighs, I still fall over backward. If I put a barbell on my back, it would have to rest on my neck while in this position in order to get the weight over my ankles.
I got some good tips from this thread as well as others. I will continue to work on things and let you know how it goes. From the OP what I mainly wanted to know was:
a) is this back soreness a bad thing?
b) what can I do to take stress off the back on the days I need it
c) what kinds of things cause this?
d) should I strengthen, stretch, modify lifts, etc.?
Thanks again every one!
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]IronBP wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]IronBP wrote:
I’m just genetically tight.
[/quote]
lol, for you really believing this AND for how it can be misconstrued out of context[/quote]
Not sure what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that there’s no such thing as a person who is predisposed to having less flexible muscles?
[/quote]
Of course there is, but that’s not why you are tight. It is more a lifestyle thing (i.e. sitting all day, lack of a proper mobility/flexibility/soft tissue regimen, etc.) Don’t let this kind of thinking hold you back. However you are stretching and working on it right now is obviously not working. You need to read up on better means to opening up your hips, lengthening your hip flexors, etc.
For starters, before every lower body session do EVERY warm up exercise listed in this article and check back in here in 1 month. Don’t half ass them. See what progress you make. It shouldn’t take you more than 15 min.
How wide is your stance? I too have long femurs and my squatting has just recently started taking a turn for better as I widened the stance a bit and start pointing my toes out so I can drive my knees out throughout the motion. With long femurs your best bet is to stop thinking about “sitting back” and start thinking about opening up your hips so you can drop your ass down. The best you can do with long femurs is get the hips out of the way. If your gym has a safety bar, this will help your cause a bit too as you can relax your arms in front of you and shift your center of gravity slightly forward.
All that being said, you should really get a video up here of some squats, deadlifts, front squats maybe.
p.s. I just measured for shits and giggles and I have 22" from hip to knee. Idk where you’re going with that. I would still argue that hip mobility is most definitely preventing you from going deeper without feeling like you have to fall forward.
Thanks. Yes, when I do squats I go with a very wide stance.
Again, I don’t have a problem going deep. I’m flexible enough to go very deep. The problem is the back soreness.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
How wide is your stance? I too have long femurs and my squatting has just recently started taking a turn for better as I widened the stance a bit and start pointing my toes out so I can drive my knees out throughout the motion. With long femurs your best bet is to stop thinking about “sitting back” and start thinking about opening up your hips so you can drop your ass down. The best you can do with long femurs is get the hips out of the way. If your gym has a safety bar, this will help your cause a bit too as you can relax your arms in front of you and shift your center of gravity slightly forward.
All that being said, you should really get a video up here of some squats, deadlifts, front squats maybe.
p.s. I just measured for shits and giggles and I have 22" from hip to knee. Idk where you’re going with that. I would still argue that hip mobility is most definitely preventing you from going deeper without feeling like you have to fall forward. [/quote]
Yea, sorry. I meant to emphasize that it’s possibly a mobility issue that has you feeling like you need to lean so far forward WHEN you go deep. Is front squatting/deadlifting any better in terms of back soreness?
I think your best bet is to get a vid of your squats and post them over in the PL forum. There’s some knowledgeable posters there.
Pain around the tail bone. The deeper I go, the more it bothers me. Nothing I can’t live with, but something I am a bit concerned about and want to play it cautious. This seems to be coupled with some knots in the very lower back. I expect this issue to clear up pretty easily with massage and rest.
A sore lower back. Not joints, not bulging discs, not sharp pain…just a dull ache. Imagine if you really worked the hell out of your lateral delts and they just burn. Like that, except that imagine you have to use you lateral delts to hold an object out to your side all day long. That seems to be the big problem. My back will get so sore that it just aches all day any time I have to support my torso with my core (like right now as I sit up to type).
10 years ago I built up to a 375 lb squat (which was a huge deal for this skinny distance runner), which was great, except that I’d go out and play basketball and could only get through a single game. I’d then have to go and lay down on the ground for a good 10 to 20 minutes because my back hurt so bad.
Yes, this is the quandary I live with…my back is too weak to work out, but if I don’t work it out, it will never get strong.
…not sure what to do about it. = ^ /
[/quote]
OP are you, all joking a side, a distance runner? Or was that just an expression? I am a former distance runner and competitive sprinter and have suffered the issue you have. I eventually had my hamstrings massaged regularly, with EXTENSIVE stretching (think doggcrapp Style) and cut back on my milage significantly and found I wasn’t sore any more (at least in that uncomfortable pulling/inflammation way) when squatting. My physio identified that my tight hamstrings and glutes were adding strain to my posterior chain which was sparking off pain when stressed by squats or deadlifts. it might be something worth considering… I also want to note that running seems to be the worst form of cardio if going for leg size, it just cannibalises that muscle in my opinion (totally unsupported by studies but i know a lot of athletes and coached a fair few, seeing this.)
Yes. I ran 65-85 miles a week in college, took some time off, and then about 40-50 miles a week from 30-35. I’m 38 now and have cut back almost completely due to achey joints. Yes, I agree, running and leg lifting don’t mix well at all. I get most of my cardio on teh bike now.
[quote]antman wrote:
[quote]IronBP wrote:
Well, I have two problems.
Pain around the tail bone. The deeper I go, the more it bothers me. Nothing I can’t live with, but something I am a bit concerned about and want to play it cautious. This seems to be coupled with some knots in the very lower back. I expect this issue to clear up pretty easily with massage and rest.
A sore lower back. Not joints, not bulging discs, not sharp pain…just a dull ache. Imagine if you really worked the hell out of your lateral delts and they just burn. Like that, except that imagine you have to use you lateral delts to hold an object out to your side all day long. That seems to be the big problem. My back will get so sore that it just aches all day any time I have to support my torso with my core (like right now as I sit up to type).
10 years ago I built up to a 375 lb squat (which was a huge deal for this skinny distance runner), which was great, except that I’d go out and play basketball and could only get through a single game. I’d then have to go and lay down on the ground for a good 10 to 20 minutes because my back hurt so bad.
Yes, this is the quandary I live with…my back is too weak to work out, but if I don’t work it out, it will never get strong.
…not sure what to do about it. = ^ /
[/quote]
OP are you, all joking a side, a distance runner? Or was that just an expression? I am a former distance runner and competitive sprinter and have suffered the issue you have. I eventually had my hamstrings massaged regularly, with EXTENSIVE stretching (think doggcrapp Style) and cut back on my milage significantly and found I wasn’t sore any more (at least in that uncomfortable pulling/inflammation way) when squatting. My physio identified that my tight hamstrings and glutes were adding strain to my posterior chain which was sparking off pain when stressed by squats or deadlifts. it might be something worth considering… I also want to note that running seems to be the worst form of cardio if going for leg size, it just cannibalises that muscle in my opinion (totally unsupported by studies but i know a lot of athletes and coached a fair few, seeing this.)
[/quote]
[quote]IronBP wrote:
Yes. I ran 65-85 miles a week in college, took some time off, and then about 40-50 miles a week from 30-35. I’m 38 now and have cut back almost completely due to achey joints. Yes, I agree, running and leg lifting don’t mix well at all. I get most of my cardio on teh bike now.
[quote]antman wrote:
[quote]IronBP wrote:
Well, I have two problems.
Pain around the tail bone. The deeper I go, the more it bothers me. Nothing I can’t live with, but something I am a bit concerned about and want to play it cautious. This seems to be coupled with some knots in the very lower back. I expect this issue to clear up pretty easily with massage and rest.
A sore lower back. Not joints, not bulging discs, not sharp pain…just a dull ache. Imagine if you really worked the hell out of your lateral delts and they just burn. Like that, except that imagine you have to use you lateral delts to hold an object out to your side all day long. That seems to be the big problem. My back will get so sore that it just aches all day any time I have to support my torso with my core (like right now as I sit up to type).
10 years ago I built up to a 375 lb squat (which was a huge deal for this skinny distance runner), which was great, except that I’d go out and play basketball and could only get through a single game. I’d then have to go and lay down on the ground for a good 10 to 20 minutes because my back hurt so bad.
Yes, this is the quandary I live with…my back is too weak to work out, but if I don’t work it out, it will never get strong.
…not sure what to do about it. = ^ /
[/quote]
OP are you, all joking a side, a distance runner? Or was that just an expression? I am a former distance runner and competitive sprinter and have suffered the issue you have. I eventually had my hamstrings massaged regularly, with EXTENSIVE stretching (think doggcrapp Style) and cut back on my milage significantly and found I wasn’t sore any more (at least in that uncomfortable pulling/inflammation way) when squatting. My physio identified that my tight hamstrings and glutes were adding strain to my posterior chain which was sparking off pain when stressed by squats or deadlifts. it might be something worth considering… I also want to note that running seems to be the worst form of cardio if going for leg size, it just cannibalises that muscle in my opinion (totally unsupported by studies but i know a lot of athletes and coached a fair few, seeing this.)
[/quote]
[/quote]
What’s your Hamstring flexibility like? I’d definitely consider getting a good deep massage and start regular leg stretches if your not already doing it.
Oh I stretch a lot. The hams are tight, but my back is loose. I can touch the floor with shoes on, and thats with long legs and short arms, but that’s due mostly to rounding of the back. I cannot get may hams to 90 degrees.
[quote]antman wrote:
[quote]IronBP wrote:
Yes. I ran 65-85 miles a week in college, took some time off, and then about 40-50 miles a week from 30-35. I’m 38 now and have cut back almost completely due to achey joints. Yes, I agree, running and leg lifting don’t mix well at all. I get most of my cardio on teh bike now.
[quote]antman wrote:
[quote]IronBP wrote:
Well, I have two problems.
Pain around the tail bone. The deeper I go, the more it bothers me. Nothing I can’t live with, but something I am a bit concerned about and want to play it cautious. This seems to be coupled with some knots in the very lower back. I expect this issue to clear up pretty easily with massage and rest.
A sore lower back. Not joints, not bulging discs, not sharp pain…just a dull ache. Imagine if you really worked the hell out of your lateral delts and they just burn. Like that, except that imagine you have to use you lateral delts to hold an object out to your side all day long. That seems to be the big problem. My back will get so sore that it just aches all day any time I have to support my torso with my core (like right now as I sit up to type).
10 years ago I built up to a 375 lb squat (which was a huge deal for this skinny distance runner), which was great, except that I’d go out and play basketball and could only get through a single game. I’d then have to go and lay down on the ground for a good 10 to 20 minutes because my back hurt so bad.
Yes, this is the quandary I live with…my back is too weak to work out, but if I don’t work it out, it will never get strong.
…not sure what to do about it. = ^ /
[/quote]
OP are you, all joking a side, a distance runner? Or was that just an expression? I am a former distance runner and competitive sprinter and have suffered the issue you have. I eventually had my hamstrings massaged regularly, with EXTENSIVE stretching (think doggcrapp Style) and cut back on my milage significantly and found I wasn’t sore any more (at least in that uncomfortable pulling/inflammation way) when squatting. My physio identified that my tight hamstrings and glutes were adding strain to my posterior chain which was sparking off pain when stressed by squats or deadlifts. it might be something worth considering… I also want to note that running seems to be the worst form of cardio if going for leg size, it just cannibalises that muscle in my opinion (totally unsupported by studies but i know a lot of athletes and coached a fair few, seeing this.)
[/quote]
[/quote]
What’s your Hamstring flexibility like? I’d definitely consider getting a good deep massage and start regular leg stretches if your not already doing it.
[/quote]
[quote]IronBP wrote:
I’m just genetically tight.
[/quote]
lol, for you really believing this AND for how it can be misconstrued out of context[/quote]
Not sure what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that there’s no such thing as a person who is predisposed to having less flexible muscles?
[/quote]
Of course there is, but that’s not why you are tight. It is more a lifestyle thing (i.e. sitting all day, lack of a proper mobility/flexibility/soft tissue regimen, etc.) Don’t let this kind of thinking hold you back. However you are stretching and working on it right now is obviously not working. You need to read up on better means to opening up your hips, lengthening your hip flexors, etc.
For starters, before every lower body session do EVERY warm up exercise listed in this article and check back in here in 1 month. Don’t half ass them. See what progress you make. It shouldn’t take you more than 15 min.
[/quote]
This.
Stretching is a superficial remedy.
Foam rolling and applying pressure (with a lacrosse ball/knuckles) deep within the muscles and tendons is much different.
The bottom of a squat is the most natural position a human can get into. You were able to do it as a baby/child. Now you cant. Somethign got fucked up along the way.