[quote]elusive wrote:
It doesn’t happen. The body’s preferred fuel source is glucose (duh) and still is even if muscle protein is broken down for gluconeogenesis (the creation of new glucose from a non glucose source). The idea that if you eat too much protein, the body will learn to prefer protein as a fuel source is dumb. Protein will be broken down into aminos, aminos into their carbon skeleton, then into pyruvate, which will be made into glucose. Glucose is still the fuel source the body is using. The body has no idea where it came from. So you see, the body never changed its preference. Its still using glucose. Besides, if you ate too much protein, dietary protein would be used for gluconeogenesis rather than muscle protein.
Overall, nothing to even worry about.[/quote]
That’s my thinking exactly, I’m just curious to figure out where he was coming from.
Hey nice study Tiger…read thru it and noted two interesting things. Firstly, this one was for endurance athletes/runners whose concern would be maintaining muscle as opposed to building it…so this is even more relevant for bbers. Secondly, I like how their conclusion suggests the absolute bare minimum to maintain positive nitrogen balance. A number which wasn’t even one of the protein levels tested but, apparently, mathematically derived as somewhere in between the -nitrogen and +nitrogen group. This is exactly the kind of thinking used to establish USDA dietary guidelines and I would consider it flawed.
As it pertains to our subculture, what happens when we do the absolute bare minimum in the gym or at the dinner table…bare minimum results?
[quote]trav123456 wrote:
Evilmage wrote:
Protein intake should always be balanced with fat and carb intake. However, I think people are forgetting that if not protein, then what? For every argument that excess protein is worthless/bad, there’s probably just as many negative arguments against excess carbs and fats (and technically alcohol).
Let’s assume for argument’s sake that I actually only need 1g/lb instead of the 2g/lb I normally get. For me, that’s 200g of protein or 800 calories. What’s the argument that getting an extra 200g of carbs or 90g of fat is an IMPROVEMENT over getting it through protein?
well for the carbs it would be for the insulin effects which are very anabolic, and you need around 50g of fat to produce healthy levels of hormones such as testosterone. the energy density of fats also makes it easier to consume more calories with a decreased volume of food, though I’m not much for that excuse.
I’m not sure on this one, but I’ve read that protein is not very energy efficient to metabolize, I think I read somewhere that about 30% of the energy in protein is burnt when your body digests it, while the % is significantly lower for carbs and fats. Don’t quote me on it though.[/quote]
I’ve seen stated anywhere from 20% to 30%…but nonetheless a greater thermic effect anyway. As trav wrote, fats do serve certain vital functions in the body…up to a certain point. As far as the carbs go…I seriously doubt an “extra” 200g of carbs will benefit you in any way, but it may help you grow those love handles They’re good for glycogen replenishment sure, and a great addition to PWO, but I’ve seen it mentioned time and time again how anabolic insulin is as the rationalization for lots of carbs…and I’ve begun to question this idea. Sure, up to a certain point…but eating 500g of carbs a day or more probably isn’t doing anything for you but halting fat mobilization.
I’m not going to whip out a bunch of studies on the topic, because honestly I rarely save them after I’ve read them…but one that I found interesting was in regard to the BCAA’s and protein synthesis. One thing they found was that leucine had both insulin-dependant and independant effects on protein synthesis…so maximum protein synthesis isn’t acheived in the absence of insulin. However, maximal protein synthesis was stimulated even at fasting insulin levels…so as we stuff down 8000 cals of PWO carbs the question which should be asked isn’t IF insulin - and by extension carbs - is anabolic, but how much is needed to acheive maximum anabolicosity (yes I made that up just now).
[quote]Dark_Angel wrote:
But when I told him I am taking in around 250-300g a day throughout the day from my morning protein shake to my Metabolic Drive Complete that I take before I go to bed that all that protein I am taking is nothing more than a waste. If he had said something like taking that much in one sitting is a waste, yea I would have to agree with him there but how I do it with taking in equal amounts throughout the day there I think he is wrong.[/quote]
where you paying this trainer money? if so, he/she needs to give you more information on what he is designing: training and nutrition wise, for your goals.
that is a lot of protein, and as has been pointed out (if too much) your body is simply using it as an inefficient and expensive energy source. you could simply experiment with dosing 0.8-1.5g/LB and see which one works for you best, but it sounds like your mind is made up so anything we say or your trainer says is perhaps a waste of advice??
I think the only time people reccomend more protein than say 1.25-1.5g/lb is if they advocate low carb diets (and are wanting the protein to convert to glucose). Note above poster: Poliquin likes >2g/lb, and adores low carb diets. Scott Abel prefers 1-1.5g/lb and loves carbs. Carb cycling guys often raise protein when carbs drops.
Basically, I believe that the macros have to be in balance with one another, but that one can have excessive protein (ie more than one needs). Whether that’s physiologically harmful, I have no idea. Note also that these numbers are for naturals; for assisted lifters when protein synthesis goes up I would suppose that more protein could be useful (though I’ve no real information on that topic - never looked into it).
If on a lower carb/higher fat diet protein needs to be high so you have enough protein for muscle growth and gluconeogensis. In this example I’ve heard about 1.5g/lb and up to 2g/lb if you really need to put on some mass.
On a higher carb diet the excess protein will go where all excess calories go…fat. So if on a higher carb diet (say 2g carb per lb…or a “normal” american diet) you can keep protein down to around 1g/lb.
I’m a fan of cycling diets. Keep on a low carb diet (.5g/lb) to correct insulin problems and put your body into a fat burning state then switch to a higher carb cycling approach.
I think just like with your training your diet needs to change as well to get the optimal benefit.
Also, high fat and you need low carb and vice versa unless you just want to add a bunch of fat. I’ve seen people get all jacked because they are over 200lbs but once they cut down they haven’t gained that much actual muscle.
[quote]danchubb wrote:
I think the only time people reccomend more protein than say 1.25-1.5g/lb is if they advocate low carb diets (and are wanting the protein to convert to glucose). Note above poster: Poliquin likes >2g/lb, and adores low carb diets. Scott Abel prefers 1-1.5g/lb and loves carbs. Carb cycling guys often raise protein when carbs drops.
[/quote]
"Charles Poliquin
How Much Protein?
Q: Is the old “gram of protein per pound of body weight” rule still good? I hear some coaches say we need less and some recommend 300 grams a day for a 200 pounder.
A: For a 200-pound lean male, 300 grams of protein per day would be the minimum. In fact, I think the rule should be closer to 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight, assuming the person is lean. "
[quote]hardcoreraymond wrote:
danchubb wrote:
I think the only time people reccomend more protein than say 1.25-1.5g/lb is if they advocate low carb diets (and are wanting the protein to convert to glucose). Note above poster: Poliquin likes >2g/lb, and adores low carb diets. Scott Abel prefers 1-1.5g/lb and loves carbs. Carb cycling guys often raise protein when carbs drops.
"Charles Poliquin
How Much Protein?
Q: Is the old “gram of protein per pound of body weight” rule still good? I hear some coaches say we need less and some recommend 300 grams a day for a 200 pounder.
A: For a 200-pound lean male, 300 grams of protein per day would be the minimum. In fact, I think the rule should be closer to 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight, assuming the person is lean. "
Your point is?
[/quote]
I thought my point was quite clear actually. If you’re on a low carb (read: keto) diet, eat relatively more protein than you would on a medium/high carb diet.
I’m just saying that most bigger guys you see out there, especially pro bodybuilders, are most likely eating way more than 1-1.5g per lb of bodyweight, low carb or not.
pro bodybuilders = massive drug use = elevated protein synthesis 24/7. of course they’re eating a lot of protein, they can use it for building muscle. the average natural trainee, however, cannot put all of it to use, and subsequently, much is converted to glucose.
that doesn’t mean that eating high protein doesn’t have plenty of benefits, however.
They’re good for glycogen replenishment sure, and a great addition to PWO, but I’ve seen it mentioned time and time again how anabolic insulin is as the rationalization for lots of carbs…and I’ve begun to question this idea. Sure, up to a certain point…but eating 500g of carbs a day or more probably isn’t doing anything for you but halting fat mobilization.