[quote]JMac10 wrote:
the terriosts cut the soildiers heads of with butcher knifes, and your calling this torture.
OMG the guy is naked.its such bad torture.
give me a break here.
[/quote]
I know. How’re the fuckers going to handle it when we get really pissed off and start lowering them head first into boiling vats of pork lard.
[quote]harris447 wrote:
I think we can sit here and split hairs about the true definition of the word ‘torture’ until we’re blue in the face. The pointis:
We’re supposed to be better than they are.
[/quote]
We are better than they are. Our harshest treatment is far kinder than what they do.
We follow the rule of law, whether you like the law or not.
BTW have you guys heard the news yet, apparently suicide bombers killed 57 people in a hotel in Jordan.
Fucking retards,
Fahd
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
We are better than they are. Our harshest treatment is far kinder than what they do.
[/quote]
Some people might argue that death is kinder than torture…
My point is two wrongs doesn’t make a right. What happened to the noble idea of “Love Thy Enemy”?
I just think no human being should EVER torture another human being. However, I’m clearly the minority here.
Fahd
I was always surprised that secular humanist crowd was so opposed to the torture photos from Abu Ghraib. I thought they celebrated that type of “art” with awards and special areas in the MOMA in NY. I just proves the SP crowd has a sliding scale of moral relativism that is gauged upon how badly it can damage President Bush or any other conservative, not that Bush is conservative, but they seem to really hate him.
Let me get this straight, Bill Clinton uses American bombers to obliterate Belgrade from 34,000 feet, killing and maiming hundreds of innocent civilians. All of which is done with the purpose of deflecting criticism of his sexual impropriety.
We didn’t hear a peep from the NY Times or any of the SP mouthpieces. But some deranged reservists harrass Iraqi terrorists, putting them into homoerotic poses and the NY Times runs 36 straight front page expose’s. Yeah they have their priorities in line.
[quote]fahd wrote:
BTW have you guys heard the news yet, apparently suicide bombers killed 57 people in a hotel in Jordan.
Fucking retards,
Fahd[/quote]
I am surprised you didn’t praise the bravery of those terrorists.
[quote]CaliKing wrote:
I just proves the SP crowd has a sliding scale of moral relativism that is gauged upon how badly it can damage President Bush or any other conservative, not that Bush is conservative, but they seem to really hate him.
[/quote]
How is Bush NOT Conservative?
[quote]fahd wrote:
CaliKing wrote:
I just proves the SP crowd has a sliding scale of moral relativism that is gauged upon how badly it can damage President Bush or any other conservative, not that Bush is conservative, but they seem to really hate him.
How is Bush NOT Conservative?
[/quote]
Spends money like a liberal, wages war like a liberal, allows the borders to stay open like a liberal. He has done some good things for the country, but for the most part, he is a very middle of the road conservative, I would even say a little-left leaning with the unbrideled spending and unwillingness to secure our countries southern border.
I am no fan of Bush, we need someone like Ronnie Reagan or Barry Goldwater
fahd is the latest tool to show up here. I give him a couple of weeks before he goes back to his mom’s basement.
Frankly, I’m a little sad that these CIA ops have been discovered.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the good and nice way of life we have here in the Free World.
However, I don’t really believe in the notion that if you act like them, you’ll end up like them. Like the movies want to make us think (the good guy never shoots the bad guy after he raped and killed both is wife and is 10 year-old daughter)
I’m all for these ‘‘Dark Agencies’’ and ‘‘Black Ops’’ that operate outside of the bounderies to ensure the survival of the ‘‘american’’ way of life…Akin to the ending of Swordfish.
Sadly, if these exist, they suck. They get caught or don’t seem to assasinate, capture, drug and mind control any enemy leader worth jack.
Hell, Israel can find and kill every freaking new leader of the Palestine terrorist groups, you’d figure the US could at least be 1/5th as effective.
It is of course a inderhance for the US not being able to use the amount of force required. Maybe if the US was more able to act like the Roman Empire, conquered countries might be easier to manage.
But hey, this is my fantasy! If we want to use civilized ways of making war with barbarians, so be it, I’ll approve.
AlexH
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
fahd is the latest tool to show up here. I give him a couple of weeks before he goes back to his mom’s basement.[/quote]
Quite funny comin’ out from someone who wrote “Some Jamaican bodybuilder is toking up right now cause they use EAS… take Biotest!” in the EAS poisoning thread.
From James Dunnigan:
Why Torture Is Still Used
November 10, 2005:
The U.S. Department of Defense is having a hard time keeping politics out of intelligence collection. The key issue is interrogation methods, expressed as “opposition to torture”. This has become something of a religious issue, and a vague one at that. Pressure groups, both domestic and international, have seized on torture, and its abolition, as a major issue. The problem is, there is no agreement on what, exactly, torture is. To many anti-torture advocates, what goes on in police interrogation rooms worldwide, every day, can be considered torture. The effort to define torture gets mixed up with the effort to outlaw torture. Caught in the middle are intelligence organizations, which are sometimes in situations where torture is the lesser of several evils.
In the popular imagination, torture is the application of pain, often to the point of death, in order to obtain information from an unwilling subject. Torture has been around for thousands of years, and during that time, a lot of mythology has grown up about it. Basically torture is interrogation carried to extremes. The ultimate extreme is killing the subject, which is usually avoided, at least until you get the information. Advocates for the abolition of torture believe that torture doesn?t work. Obviously, it does work. Just check out the history of espionage during World War II, or any other major conflict. Torture was accepted, if not much talked about. Information was regularly extracted from unwilling captives, and much damage done as a result. Everyone used torture, even if there were regulations against it. To this day, spies and soldiers are trained to deal with torture. It is acknowledged, in the espionage world, that if one of your people is caught by someone who has torture experts, your guy is likely to talk eventually. Thus there are often provisions for suicide pills.
In the war on terror, it was understood, early on, that there might be situations where you had a captive who possessed life-saving information, and you had to get that data, or lose a lot of your own people. To the anti-torture crowd, that is not acceptable. They believe, as an article of faith, that torture is never justified, and simply doesn?t work. How do you argue with this? You don?t. You can?t. It?s a religious argument, and you cannot dispute faith.
What the Department of Defense wants to avoid is getting stuck with a set of rules so restrictive that, when information must be obtained from someone, the interrogators will have to accept the possibility of going to jail if they attempt to get life saving information. That may be end up being the situation, and torture will never be eliminated. But it is possible to issue rules and regulations, if only to keep the media happy and silence the stridently righteous.
I don’t understand what your problem with torture is. When done correctly you can get a LOT of information from your “guests”. However, when done incorrectly torture tends to give you many to wrong leads. However, my thoughts also tell many that these people want to kill me and my family. They don’t care about my rights or comfort. If they had their way, I would die a slow and very painful death. So I don’t care about their comfort as long as they tell me absolutly EVERYTHING that they know therefore letting us save people.
[quote]CaliKing wrote:
fahd wrote:
CaliKing wrote:
I just proves the SP crowd has a sliding scale of moral relativism that is gauged upon how badly it can damage President Bush or any other conservative, not that Bush is conservative, but they seem to really hate him.
How is Bush NOT Conservative?
Spends money like a liberal, wages war like a liberal, allows the borders to stay open like a liberal. He has done some good things for the country, but for the most part, he is a very middle of the road conservative, I would even say a little-left leaning with the unbrideled spending and unwillingness to secure our countries southern border.
I am no fan of Bush, we need someone like Ronnie Reagan or Barry Goldwater[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]CaliKing wrote:
I was always surprised that secular humanist crowd was so opposed to the torture photos from Abu Ghraib. I thought they celebrated that type of “art” with awards and special areas in the MOMA in NY. I just proves the SP crowd has a sliding scale of moral relativism that is gauged upon how badly it can damage President Bush or any other conservative, not that Bush is conservative, but they seem to really hate him.
Let me get this straight, Bill Clinton uses American bombers to obliterate Belgrade from 34,000 feet, killing and maiming hundreds of innocent civilians. All of which is done with the purpose of deflecting criticism of his sexual impropriety.
We didn’t hear a peep from the NY Times or any of the SP mouthpieces. But some deranged reservists harrass Iraqi terrorists, putting them into homoerotic poses and the NY Times runs 36 straight front page expose’s. Yeah they have their priorities in line. [/quote]
Um, read a little man. They KILLED people at Abu Ghraib. We’re not just talking naked guy on a leash here, as degrading as that is.
[quote]fahd wrote:
Torture: It’s the New American Way
By Rosa Brooks
he Los Angeles Times
…Because these high-value prisoners - so-called ghost detainees - were going to be subjected to “enhanced interrogation techniques.”
That’s Orwell-speak for what’s known in English as torture. The list of enhanced techniques is classified but reportedly includes such old favorites as “waterboarding” (feigned drowning) and feigned suffocation. Authorized techniques also may have included the “Palestinian hanging,” a “stress position” in which a detainee is suspended from the ceiling or wall by his wrists, which are handcuffed behind his back.
It was this enhancement that preceded the death of Manadel Jamadi, an Iraqi who died in CIA custody at Abu Ghraib in November 2003, according to government investigative reports. When Jamadi was lowered to the ground, blood gushed from his mouth as if “a faucet had turned on,” said Tony Diaz, an MP who witnessed his torture. Later, other guards posed with Jamadi’s battered corpse, and the leaked photos shocked the world.
[/quote]
-Why post an Op-Ed piece to start this discussion? These should never be confused with real journalism.
-“The list is classified, but reportedly includes such favorites as…”
Come on. What she’s saying is she has no idea what’s really going on. However, to further her agenda, she’ll write an article stating her opinion on what she speculates happened.
-I’m as against actual torture as the next (reasonable)guy, but these articles, as posted, are not statements of fact. They are the opinions and assumptions of the author, usually designed to incite. That’s as biased as “journalism” can get.
I say torture… For example if I found out someone was planning something against my wife I would take any means neccesary to find out what it was and to stop them. Some times you have to play hard, tough love ya know…
I should clarify that this thing would have to harm her, not give her candy which is not part of massive eating. (IE: China)
[quote]JMac10 wrote:
fahd wrote:
JMac10 wrote:
the terriosts cut the soildiers heads of with butcher knifes, and your calling this torture.
OMG the guy is naked.its such bad torture.
give me a break here.
Good to see you reading the article.
Fahd
sorry, i just looked at the picture.
i just read the article.
i still dont think its torture, they do worse things to us.
[/quote]
Agreed every time you enter the Prison (in the USA) you get strip searched, are forced to take group showers. Allowed to be raped, all sorts of terrible things. Why should they get any less.
So a dog was barking at a Naked guy, sure it embarassed him, who cares?
Id just like to point out to all of you who feel that the United States is violating the rights of these individuals…they have no rights which must be respected, either within the US or International community. They are not US citizens, and as such, have no right to a fair trial, or compassionate treatment, or anything else that might be extended to US citizens under US law.
Secondly, nonuniformed combatants are not awarded the so called “rights” an average POW would be expected to recieve. Much like spies or snipers they may be detained or tortured. And to those of you whose retort will simply be American should be better than that…Im guessing you never served in the armed forces. This isnt fun and games, and in war compassion gets people killed.
So until your ready to sacrafice your lives so some SOB can enjoy the comfort and rights they supposedly deserve, Id advise you to shut the hell up cause no one cares.
Not that this thread hasn’t already been inundated with reasonable arguments as to the use of torture, but of course I would like to give it a go.
Once upon a time guerrilla warfare was considered uncivilized and at times criminal. Today, we train every soldier that will carry a rifle in the rudiments of guerrilla warfare. Oh well… the rules of warfare change over time to adopt the most effective warfighting methods for the objective desired.
Torture has and will always be acceptable. Maybe not to you, Maybe not to me. However, to an officer who is charged with the well-being of his troops, or a CIA operative who thinks of 9/11 and the current situation in Israel torture seems like a good idea. I like that someone out there is doing what needs to be done to win. Period. You can argue philosophy all day long, but I can guarantee you that your philisophical arguments mean jack shit in the real world. Get used to it. Right now, you’re in a safer world because someone decided that some other bastard needed to be tortured to save lifes and win battles.
Try to use some of that energy to spend some time thinking about something useful. Like getting African nations to give up the tribal faction bullshit and start working toward national gov’ts that don’t solely subsist on violence, extortion, and hand-outs from the UN.
You could get a lot more mileage out of that than trying to win a war w/o fighting.