To All The Unbelievers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
342

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Thank you for actually answering some of my questions that began this thread. I do appreciate that.

PGA200X wrote:
b Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.[/b]

I dont believe in god therefore I dont sin.

So, you never lied, stolen anything, lusted after a member of the opposite sex, or anything like that? I mean you don’t have to believe in God in order to do these things. Please explain how you are without sin.

b Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.[/b]

I believe in myself and my choices. Which according to you I’m not supposed to have choices.

Of course you have choices, you are choosing not to believe in God. That is your choice because you made it, therefore obviously you have it. Everyone has been given the ability to make choices. That is what is so neat about God. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because He forces us.

Since you “believe in yourself,” let me ask you this. Can you prevent yourself from death? Did you participate in making yourself alive? Think about what you are saying. You cannot control either life nor death – how can you control your eternal destiny?

bTell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?[/b]

The source of my beliefs is I have not seen anything that proves there is a higher being or beings. There are so many different religious beliefs out there who’s to say which one is right?

I appreciate your honesty here and frankly you sound like me 12 years ago. I made the mistake in thinking that since there were multitudes of “religions” and myraids of “beliefs” even within these religions, that all of them were wrong. Even logically, the choice are this:

(1) They are all wrong – since they all cannot be correct at the same time.

(2) One is correct, the rest of them are wrong.

I have come to realize that, although I believed in choice #1 for a long time, it is actually #2 that is the answer. The Bible is correct, everything else is wrong since it is not of God.

No person can make you or anyone else believe. It will be an act of God if you really are interested in your eternal destiny and hope.

When innocent children stop dying, then maybe I’ll take a look at it all again. Its because of these reasons I believe there is no god.

That is unfortunate indeed. Innocent children die for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with man’s sin. It is unfortunate that you would blame God for man’s choice to sin and thus reject the possibility of His existence. Do not forget, since God is God, no sin goes unpunished forever. When the evildoers meet God and they have not come to Christ – their punishment begins and will never end for all eternity.

[/quote]

You forget Option #3

They are all right. There is no “wrong” religion and that the basic tenets of most of the major ones are the same.

343

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
And I think it’s a big enough religion to handle those like Steve who are aggressive with their witnessing. And those like you who are more laid back. Because HIS brand of Christianity is not YOUR brand should not bother you.

That might be why God has allowed the many different Christian denominations.

Zeb, he isn’t just aggressive, he is irritating. It is like watching the writings of a Jehova’s Witness on crack.
[/quote]

Lol…Okay I get your point.

Again, I understand why some might think this. But then again others might be enthused through this mans immense energy and dedication to the Lord. We have no idea how everyone feels about Steves posts. Most who read this thread will never post in it.

Just like all the folks that you have helped inspire to lift properly, or to eat more and grow. They’ve never posted to thank you, but you made a positive change in their lives.

I enjoy your training posts.

I also enjoy Steves Christian threads.

344

These forums are fascinating places to study people. In this particular post there are times when certain posters are using egocentric speech, not for communication purposes with anyone but instead as a means of thinking out loud. Sometimes it changes to collective monologues.

You can spot this when the person who makes the statements will not reply to something that breaks down the complex infrastructure of their original ideology, thoughts and feelings. Gives fantastic insight into the persons sub-conscious, as well as his overt motivation or emotion.

I think the fact some people are not interested in the importance of others saying I agree makes it a whole host of issues that have little to do with intelligent debate.

By the way, i’m a clinical psychologist, currently studying behavioural stuff on the internet.

345

[quote]Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I am Jewish

Do you practice the Jewish religion or faith?

Jewishness is a heritage – independent of the ‘religion.’ I am Jewish because I was born that way. Just like you are black, because you were born that way. Get it?

Anyway, I do think an apology is in order for the comment you made.

An apology for writing that you would lead the Crusades if you could? I don’t think so. You are on some apparant war path in this very thread where you seem to be trying to force what you believe on people who don’t seem to care. There are people of all races who are Jewish in faith. My comment had nothing to do with ethnicity thus you get no apology.[/quote]

This is a very foolish comment and it is disappointing that you have little to no integrity. I have absolute confidence that if someone made a comment to you like the one I suggested in my earlier post, you and the Al Sharpton’s of the world would have screamed bloody murder.

For you to equate my preaching to others so that they might get saved from an eternity in Hell, to those who killed my ancestors is a disgusting and despicable remark. The fact that you will not admit your error and apologize just shows your utter lack of respect for the Jewish people and hence you have no integrity.

346

[quote]michael2507 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

When innocent children stop dying, then maybe I’ll take a look at it all again. Its because of these reasons I believe there is no god.

That is unfortunate indeed. Innocent children die for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with man’s sin. It is unfortunate that you would blame God for man’s choice to sin and thus reject the possibility of His existence. Do not forget, since God is God, no sin goes unpunished forever. When the evildoers meet God and they have not come to Christ – their punishment begins and will never end for all eternity.

The following issue has been discussed on a different thread and I’m interested in your opinion:

You stated above that the suffering of innocent children can be considered evil that results from the exertion of free will by “evildoers”. As a result, these “evildoers” will suffer eternal punishment.

The value of this freedom of will, although it can lead to suffering, lies therein, that it enables us to make choices, most of all moral choices, choices to create moral good and conversely moral evil, correct? Simplified, the ability to choose could be considered necessary in order for us to be “human”, a creation in God’s own image.

I still wonder, though, how it can be that an innocent child would have to suffer the consequences of “natural evil”, i.e. evil which is not the consequence of the exertion of free will. What about disease, disasters, etc.? Not all of these cases have their causation in a sinful deed of some “evildoer”. How would you explain this?[/quote]

You must remember that the Bible teaches that the curse that came from man’s sin also cursed the Earth itself. Therefore all of these: natural disasters, disease, suffering, are all part of the curse due to man’s sin.

There is another way of thinking about this. That is that God could condemn us all right now to Hell for eternity. The fact that He stays His had of judgement and gives people – all people – the opportunity to repent and come to Him shows that He is indeed a loving, wonderful, Father.

347

[quote]Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

OK – do you think that lying, stealing, having sex with another man’s wife, are good things? What do you call these things then?

Certainly not. That has been addressed in my original post (see above), as well as in a follow-up post (see below). Non-believers aren’t saying that these behaviors are good, they just don’t attach any theological qualifiers to them. If “sin” is a crime against God, and one does not believe in God, it is not a “sin”. It is still a bad behavior, and is still not beneficial to society, but there are no eternal consequences attached.

OK – you want to call these types of behaviors “bad,” instead of sin – I have no problem with that. But let me ask you something on this point.

I never said one way or the other what I want to call these behaviors. That is irrelvant to the point I am making.

How do you know that lying, murder, stealing, having sex with someone’s wife, are bad behaviors? Where do you get that from? Isn’t true that we have a conscience [con = with; science = knowledge]? Our consciences tell us that these things are “bad.” Well where did the conscience come from? Who gave us this knowledge of good and evil? (Remember what Satan said to Adam and Eve in the garden that we would have the knowledge of good and evil?).

Again, my question is who gave us this ability to know right from wrong without ever being told? I am interested on your thoughts about this.

A fair and interesting question. Could it be possible that we are not born with an innate sense of right and wrong? Could it be possible that that is something that must be taught and learned?

I was taught at a young age the difference between right and wrong. I was taught by my parents, grandparents, relatives, friends’ parents, teachers, etc… When I was good, I was rewarded (with love, praise, attention), and when I was bad I was punished (scolded, spanked, etc.). I was always given and shown love, even when I was bad. Because of this nurturing, I lead a good (moral) life.[/quote]

Well, then who taught this to your grandparents and their parents, and so on. Thinking about this a bit more, you would arrive at the first person in the chain. Where did that person get a sense of right and wrong? Who gave it to him or her? Where did this knowledge come from? [quote]

I currently work with individuals who were never taught that difference, who have no “conscience”. When I say that, I don’t mean that they know the difference between right and wrong, and wrong is more appealing, I mean they literally have no sense that their actions are bad, other than the fact that they could be punished by the court system. Even the thought of being caught doesn’t make them think that their actions are wrong, just that they can get caught. They did not have loving parents who taught them this difference. Yet, they started in life the same as me, a “blank slate” morally. What happened to their “conscience”?

Now you are making stuff up. Everyone has a conscience. The people you work with obviously have “seared” their consciences and thus are able to act without regard to it. Still, everyone knows at some level that murder is wrong for example. Just some have learned to not listen to their consciences. [quote]

Why must everything have a purpose? Why is it a common trait of human nature to be unable to accept that we may simply just “be”, without ultimate cause, ultimate design or ultimate purpose? Do we as humans really need to feel that important, when “ultimately” we are not?

Because everything does have a purpose. That’s why. If the little things on Earth have a purpose, how much more the ultimate Creator of the Universe has a purpose?

When I was a kid, my father would tell me that “because” is not an answer. Now I understand why he would never let me get away with trying to use it as one.

[/quote]

348

[quote]storey420 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Thank you for actually answering some of my questions that began this thread. I do appreciate that.

PGA200X wrote:
b Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.[/b]

I dont believe in god therefore I dont sin.

So, you never lied, stolen anything, lusted after a member of the opposite sex, or anything like that? I mean you don’t have to believe in God in order to do these things. Please explain how you are without sin.

b Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.[/b]

I believe in myself and my choices. Which according to you I’m not supposed to have choices.

Of course you have choices, you are choosing not to believe in God. That is your choice because you made it, therefore obviously you have it. Everyone has been given the ability to make choices. That is what is so neat about God. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because He forces us.

Since you “believe in yourself,” let me ask you this. Can you prevent yourself from death? Did you participate in making yourself alive? Think about what you are saying. You cannot control either life nor death – how can you control your eternal destiny?

bTell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?[/b]

The source of my beliefs is I have not seen anything that proves there is a higher being or beings. There are so many different religious beliefs out there who’s to say which one is right?

I appreciate your honesty here and frankly you sound like me 12 years ago. I made the mistake in thinking that since there were multitudes of “religions” and myraids of “beliefs” even within these religions, that all of them were wrong. Even logically, the choice are this:

(1) They are all wrong – since they all cannot be correct at the same time.

(2) One is correct, the rest of them are wrong.

I have come to realize that, although I believed in choice #1 for a long time, it is actually #2 that is the answer. The Bible is correct, everything else is wrong since it is not of God.

No person can make you or anyone else believe. It will be an act of God if you really are interested in your eternal destiny and hope.

When innocent children stop dying, then maybe I’ll take a look at it all again. Its because of these reasons I believe there is no god.

That is unfortunate indeed. Innocent children die for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with man’s sin. It is unfortunate that you would blame God for man’s choice to sin and thus reject the possibility of His existence. Do not forget, since God is God, no sin goes unpunished forever. When the evildoers meet God and they have not come to Christ – their punishment begins and will never end for all eternity.

You forget Option #3

They are all right. There is no “wrong” religion and that the basic tenets of most of the major ones are the same.[/quote]

This option is not possible. They all cannot be correct since most of all of them contradict each other somewhere.

349

[quote]jasonigor wrote:
These forums are fascinating places to study people. In this particular post there are times when certain posters are using egocentric speech, not for communication purposes with anyone but instead as a means of thinking out loud. Sometimes it changes to collective monologues.

You can spot this when the person who makes the statements will not reply to something that breaks down the complex infrastructure of their original ideology, thoughts and feelings. Gives fantastic insight into the persons sub-conscious, as well as his overt motivation or emotion.

I think the fact some people are not interested in the importance of others saying I agree makes it a whole host of issues that have little to do with intelligent debate.

By the way, i’m a clinical psychologist, currently studying behavioural stuff on the internet.[/quote]

Do you believe in the God of the Bible, Mr. Psychologist?

351

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I am Jewish

Do you practice the Jewish religion or faith?

Jewishness is a heritage – independent of the ‘religion.’ I am Jewish because I was born that way. Just like you are black, because you were born that way. Get it?

Anyway, I do think an apology is in order for the comment you made.

An apology for writing that you would lead the Crusades if you could? I don’t think so. You are on some apparant war path in this very thread where you seem to be trying to force what you believe on people who don’t seem to care. There are people of all races who are Jewish in faith. My comment had nothing to do with ethnicity thus you get no apology.

This is a very foolish comment and it is disappointing that you have little to no integrity. I have absolute confidence that if someone made a comment to you like the one I suggested in my earlier post, you and the Al Sharpton’s of the world would have screamed bloody murder.

For you to equate my preaching to others so that they might get saved from an eternity in Hell, to those who killed my ancestors is a disgusting and despicable remark. The fact that you will not admit your error and apologize just shows your utter lack of respect for the Jewish people and hence you have no integrity.
[/quote]

I have a lack of respect for you. I don’t disrepect entire cultures of people. Again, for the mildly retarded, my comment was referring to RELIGION and your methods, not the ethnicities of anyone involved. Jews weren’t the only people killed during The Crusades. Basically anyone who didn’t want to be converted was a target. Sound familiar?

Wait, was this your attempt to pretend to be persecuted?

352

Rev. 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.?
This scripture is about the judgment of the wicked and how they will endure it forever in consciousness.

353

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
…and who gives you the right to determine other people’s motives.[/quote]

Actually, that’s an integral part of my job. In fact, I’d even say it’s one of the most important parts of my job.

Not that I expect you to understand that, of course, but in case anyone else was wondering…

354

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Do you believe in the God of the Bible, Mr. Psychologist?[/quote]

That’s just… low.

I can get you being a condescending prick towards long-time posters who have attacked you in the past, but towards a newcomer that is actually trying to elevate the conversation a bit?

Is that how your parents taught you to welcome people?

355

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I want to get back to talking politics, not the bullshit that Steveo talks.

No religious issue will be solved over the net.[/quote]

And political issues ARE solved over the net?

356

[quote]hspder wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Do you believe in the God of the Bible, Mr. Psychologist?

That’s just… low.

I can get you being a condescending prick towards long-time posters who have attacked you in the past, but towards a newcomer that is actually trying to elevate the conversation a bit?

Is that how your parents taught you to welcome people?[/quote]

And that is funny!

You are THE most “condescending prick” on this forum.

358

[quote]hspder wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Do you believe in the God of the Bible, Mr. Psychologist?

That’s just… low.

I can get you being a condescending prick towards long-time posters who have attacked you in the past, but towards a newcomer that is actually trying to elevate the conversation a bit?

Is that how your parents taught you to welcome people?[/quote]

Yeah right. I’ll take pointers in the finer points of social skills from you, right? Give me a break!

Besides, I asked him a question without using any inflammatory or foul language, unlike you, my misguided tutor. So knock off your sanctimonious garbage and either post something reasonably intelligent, or stop posting on these threads that you don’t like anyway.

359

[quote]Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I am Jewish

Do you practice the Jewish religion or faith?

Jewishness is a heritage – independent of the ‘religion.’ I am Jewish because I was born that way. Just like you are black, because you were born that way. Get it?

Anyway, I do think an apology is in order for the comment you made.

An apology for writing that you would lead the Crusades if you could? I don’t think so. You are on some apparant war path in this very thread where you seem to be trying to force what you believe on people who don’t seem to care. There are people of all races who are Jewish in faith. My comment had nothing to do with ethnicity thus you get no apology.

This is a very foolish comment and it is disappointing that you have little to no integrity. I have absolute confidence that if someone made a comment to you like the one I suggested in my earlier post, you and the Al Sharpton’s of the world would have screamed bloody murder.

For you to equate my preaching to others so that they might get saved from an eternity in Hell, to those who killed my ancestors is a disgusting and despicable remark. The fact that you will not admit your error and apologize just shows your utter lack of respect for the Jewish people and hence you have no integrity.

I have a lack of respect for you. [/quote]

And I for you, sir. [quote]

I don’t disrepect entire cultures of people. Again, for the mildly retarded, my comment was referring to RELIGION and your methods, not the ethnicities of anyone involved. Jews weren’t the only people killed during The Crusades. Basically anyone who didn’t want to be converted was a target. Sound familiar? [/quote]

No it doesn’t. Another ridiculous attempt to equate Bible-beliving Christians who seek to share their faith with those who will listen, with those who attempted to force conversions with the penalty of death. Simply a ludacrous, inflammatory, and hateful comparison, especially used upon a Jewish person.

Wait, was this your attempt to pretend to be persecuted?[/quote]

As I have said many times, I don’t feel persecuted at all here on these threads. I do see that many people hate God, and hate those who will stand up for God, but I never used the “p” word – that is your invention once again to diminish what I say by trying to diminish me.

I will not respond to you anymore, unless you apologize for your hateful statement equating me with the Crusades which caused bloodshed for my ancestors (and yes, others too).

BTW – real men know when they are wrong and will apologize for their actions.

360

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Again, using Scriptures given to the Jewish people under a theocracy . [/quote]

Steveo, I find it hard to imagine, as you have identified yourself as Jewish, that you would be so dismissive of their beliefs.

[quote]Vroom, why don’t you concern yourself with what the Bible says for us today?

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.” This was uttered by Paul and Silas to the Phillipain jailor. Are you saying that Paul and Silas were insane?[/quote]

I do concern myself with what it says, but since I can read and reason I do not reach the same conclusion that you do.

In particular, Paul and Silas are simply people. It doesn’t really matter to me what they said. I am more concerned with the words of Jesus as related to us (by other men, who as humans have filtered events through the lens of their time and attitudes) in the Bible.

If you want to be Christian, you should consider getting your inspiration from the source, not his hangers on.

[quote]Please explain your vast theological thoughts here, Vroom.
[/quote]

Steveo, you refuse to pay any attention to what anyone says in these matters. Jesus himself states in various locations in the Bible that there is more than one path for us to follow.

You have chosen a very strict and particular interpretation, and it gives you peace and comfort, that is fine. However, I find it wrong of you to chastise other Christians who have a different interpration than yours.

God is not speaking to you. Jesus has not held your hand and delivered to you the one and only truth. You appear very much to want to think this is the case, but I do not in any way believe you’ve been given a miracle.

Perhaps you should show a little more respect for both your fellow man and your fellow Christians. You are not acting very Christian at all, which in my mind would be more exemplified by demonstrating good will to your fellow man.

361

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I will not respond to you anymore, unless you apologize for your hateful statement equating me with the Crusades which caused bloodshed for my ancestors (and yes, others too).[/quote]

I protest. That is entirely fucking unfair!

How do I get a free pass from your voluminous stupidity?

362

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
hspder wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Do you believe in the God of the Bible, Mr. Psychologist?

That’s just… low.

I can get you being a condescending prick towards long-time posters who have attacked you in the past, but towards a newcomer that is actually trying to elevate the conversation a bit?

Is that how your parents taught you to welcome people?

And that is funny!

You are THE most “condescending prick” on this forum.

Zeb, if he’s the liberal condescending prick, then you are the conservative version. Watch yourself.

[/quote]

At least I have the intelligence to be one…when I want that is.

363

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

A fair and interesting question. Could it be possible that we are not born with an innate sense of right and wrong? Could it be possible that that is something that must be taught and learned?

I was taught at a young age the difference between right and wrong. I was taught by my parents, grandparents, relatives, friends’ parents, teachers, etc… When I was good, I was rewarded (with love, praise, attention), and when I was bad I was punished (scolded, spanked, etc.). I was always given and shown love, even when I was bad. Because of this nurturing, I lead a good (moral) life.

Well, then who taught this to your grandparents and their parents, and so on. Thinking about this a bit more, you would arrive at the first person in the chain. Where did that person get a sense of right and wrong? Who gave it to him or her? Where did this knowledge come from?
[/quote]
Trial and error throughout the history and development of the best methods of social control.

Are you accusing me of the “sin” of lying? Why Steve, what an ugly thing to say. Does this mean we’re not friends anymore? Because if I thought you weren’t my friend, I just don’t know if I could bear it.