To All The Unbelievers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
322

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Again, this is not written as “persecution”. It is written because you aren’t making sense or even providing a decent debate or argument. You are simply making yourself an easy target. If you take this as anything other than that, then something is very wrong. [/quote]

Brilliantly put!

I honestly do not think that, deep down, SteveO is really interested in bringing people to Jesus like he claims to be. His motivations are purely selfish (he’s just trying to validate his own beliefs through others) and because of that, he subconsciously undermines his own efforts by trying to use vinegar to catch flies…

Any moron knows that doesn’t work, and that if you really want to really convince people of anything, the last thing you want is to start the conversation by trying to make people feel ashamed or generally bad about themselves. On the contrary: what that does achieve very effectively is turning people that have an open mind AWAY.

323

I can’t believe in a God that would suggest I should be put to death for shaving.

He/She/It would have to be as insane as Steveo.

Luckily for me I’m not a fanatical literalist (who also appears to be illiterate to boot).

324

Why has a forum full of topical stuff about bodybuilding, sex and steroids got so many religous threads ?

325

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Do you honestly think you and Steve are the only Christians on this site? [/quote]

That type of inflammatory talk is what “brings it on.”

[quote]I understand why the atheists hate Steve. And they display that hate on a regular basis. But I would think that if Christians were going to complain on this site it would be more about something like the… “Ass Worship thread” for example, rather than Steve talking about Jesus Christ.

This is where you are completely off. What upsets people is that someone like Steve is attempting to speak for an entire belief. [/quote]

I don’t think he is attempting to speak for an entire belief anymore than you speak for everyone who weighs over 250lbs. when you give advice on training. Or, that I speak for everyone who favors chins as part of their training.

It’s simply our take on things. And it’s Steves position that he is debating. However, I have checked on Steve’s Biblical references and they are all exactly right.

Again, it’s his style that you don’t like…that’s your right.

“In my opinion”. You need to add those three little words.

Neither do I.

Agreed.

I’ve been around this site for quite a while and I honestly don’t remember that many religious threads that did not end up with the atheists attacking it. Whether it was Steve or someone else starting these types of threads I have a hunch they would have all pretty much gone the same way.

Atheists do not want to hear anything about God, the Bible or Jesus Christ. Any way that you might package it a similar result would occur.

326

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
what are you going to do about your sin?

Honestly, do you plan to keep asking this question forever?

Do you think everyone, even those who believe in God, who has told you your approach is ridiculous are just unable to comprehend things the way you can?

I am in awe that you think this way.

Don’t be. He’s severly retarded.[/quote]

Posted by an agnostic.

(Although he is a great guy)

327

[quote]hspder wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Again, this is not written as “persecution”. It is written because you aren’t making sense or even providing a decent debate or argument. You are simply making yourself an easy target. If you take this as anything other than that, then something is very wrong.

Brilliantly put!

I honestly do not think that, deep down, SteveO is really interested in bringing people to Jesus like he claims to be. His motivations are purely selfish (he’s just trying to validate his own beliefs through others) and because of that, he subconsciously undermines his own efforts by trying to use vinegar to catch flies…

Any moron knows that doesn’t work, and that if you really want to really convince people of anything, the last thing you want is to start the conversation by trying to make people feel ashamed or generally bad about themselves. On the contrary: what that does achieve very effectively is turning people that have an open mind AWAY.[/quote]

Posted by an Atheist.

328

Well, you can wear those pajamas
like those Tibetan llamas all day.
You can be the ascetic
profound and prophetic
in most every way.

You can model your life after Christ
or suffice with Simon Peter.
You can bathe in holy water, bow
to Gideon or Gautama or the pyramids of
Giza.

You can wear your frock, your collar,
or your shawl.
But there’s a little bit of Judas in us all.

You keep your conscience swept clean
your front lawn looking green, its a
keen neighborhood.
You visit your sick mother weekly,
spring for charity freely like a good
moral man should.
You brought two children in the world,
a little boy, a little girl, you dutifully clothe and you feed them.
You come straight home to your wife,
you want no trouble in your life, you swear you’ll never cheat them.
Now suddenly you’re feeling so small
'cause there’s a little bit of Judas in us all.

Well, excuse my digression but I had the distinct impression she loved me so.
So as not to try her conscience she handed me a crock of nonsense while she bled me slow.
Now her picture just hangs on the wall to remind me.
There’s a little bit of Judas in us all.

-Gino Vannelli

329

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’ve been around this site for quite a while and I honestly don’t remember that many religious threads that did not end up with the atheists attacking it. Whether it was Steve or someone else starting these types of threads I have a hunch they would have all pretty much gone the same way.

Atheists do not want to hear anything about God, the Bible or Jesus Christ. Any way that you might package it a similar result would occur.[/quote]

The difference here, Zeb, is that it is a little like crying wolf. There have been so many posts and threads lately that haven’t added up to much at all that if any one of us actually did start a decent thread on the subject of religion, it would either go unnoticed or fall into the same basic crap that this one has. In the end, this is a bodybuilding website with a politics and world issues forum. People like Steve have made it some kind of mission to make a new thread once a week or once a day trying to force religion on people who aren’t interested. I truly feel people like him would be leading the Crusades if this were an earlier time. They can’t live with or around people who have different beliefs than them without proclaiming how wrong everyone else is regularly. It makes me wonder how people like Steve would get along with a Muslim, a Buddhist, or even an Atheist on a one on one basis.

330

b Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.[/b]

I dont believe in god therefore I dont sin.

b Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.[/b]

I believe in myself and my choices. Which according to you I’m not supposed to have choices.

bTell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?[/b]

The source of my beliefs is I have not seen anything that proves there is a higher being or beings. There are so many different religious beliefs out there who’s to say which one is right?

When innocent children stop dying, then maybe I’ll take a look at it all again. Its because of these reasons I believe there is no god.

331

[quote]hspder wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Again, this is not written as “persecution”. It is written because you aren’t making sense or even providing a decent debate or argument. You are simply making yourself an easy target. If you take this as anything other than that, then something is very wrong.

Brilliantly put!

I honestly do not think that, deep down, SteveO is really interested in bringing people to Jesus like he claims to be. His motivations are purely selfish (he’s just trying to validate his own beliefs through others) and because of that, he subconsciously undermines his own efforts by trying to use vinegar to catch flies…

Any moron knows that doesn’t work, and that if you really want to really convince people of anything, the last thing you want is to start the conversation by trying to make people feel ashamed or generally bad about themselves. On the contrary: what that does achieve very effectively is turning people that have an open mind AWAY.[/quote]

…and who gives you the right to determine other people’s motives. Both you and the good Prof. are refusing to read what I wrote. By you and the Prof.'s own characterization of how I go about sharing my faith, the same would have to be said about the O.T. prophets, Jesus Himself, and the Apostles and Deacons. Are you saying, as a “Christian” that they were all wrong in their approach?

For the record, I don’t consider myself “persecuted” here or anything of the like. I really could care less of what you think of me personally, although you don’t know me so it is weird that anyone should have personal opinions of the characters of others here. I don’t need this forum or any forum to validate my faith. The validation of my faith comes from my God and nowhere else.

It is sad that “christians” would attack other Christians here or anywhere else. Here is something from the Bible dealing with this:

“From whence come wars and fightings amoung you? Come they not hence, even of the lust which war in your members?” James 4:1-2

Behavior displayed like this clearly is sin as defined by God’s Word.

332

[quote]vroom wrote:
I can’t believe in a God that would suggest I should be put to death for shaving.

He/She/It would have to be as insane as Steveo.

Luckily for me I’m not a fanatical literalist (who also appears to be illiterate to boot).[/quote]

Again, using Scriptures given to the Jewish people under a theocracy .

Vroom, why don’t you concern yourself with what the Bible says for us today?

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.” This was uttered by Paul and Silas to the Phillipain jailor. Are you saying that Paul and Silas were insane?

Please explain your vast theological thoughts here, Vroom.

333

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’ve been around this site for quite a while and I honestly don’t remember that many religious threads that did not end up with the atheists attacking it. Whether it was Steve or someone else starting these types of threads I have a hunch they would have all pretty much gone the same way.

Atheists do not want to hear anything about God, the Bible or Jesus Christ. Any way that you might package it a similar result would occur.

The difference here, Zeb, is that it is a little like crying wolf. There have been so many posts and threads lately that haven’t added up to much at all that if any one of us actually did start a decent thread on the subject of religion, it would either go unnoticed or fall into the same basic crap that this one has. In the end, this is a bodybuilding website with a politics and world issues forum. People like Steve have made it some kind of mission to make a new thread once a week or once a day trying to force religion on people who aren’t interested. I truly feel people like him would be leading the Crusades if this were an earlier time. [/quote]

Excuse me, sir, but I take umbrage to this! I am Jewish and if the Crusades were going on I would be the one in trouble and those of my family. This comment is like me saying that you would be a slave master on a plantation if slavery were legal. That would be as equal an idiotic comment as the one you just made. The only difference is that I am telling you that I don’t believe that, while you actually made this comment in a serious way. That is most unfortunate, sir. [quote]

They can’t live with or around people who have different beliefs than them without proclaiming how wrong everyone else is regularly. It makes me wonder how people like Steve would get along with a Muslim, a Buddhist, or even an Atheist on a one on one basis. [/quote]

It might interest you to know that I meet Muslims, Buddists, and people of other belief systems regularly. I am out on the street in New York City quite regularly proclaiming God’s Word. I debate them, with humility and kindness, but I don’t diminish or water down God’s Word. I have had no trouble, but again, my aim is to have people see and understand God’s Truth, rather than like me. Again, the examples from the N.T. show that those who were charged with proclaiming the Gospel, were more interested in others than themselves or being liked.

Anyway, I do think an apology is in order for the comment you made.

334

Thank you for actually answering some of my questions that began this thread. I do appreciate that.

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
b Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.[/b]

I dont believe in god therefore I dont sin.[/quote]

So, you never lied, stolen anything, lusted after a member of the opposite sex, or anything like that? I mean you don’t have to believe in God in order to do these things. Please explain how you are without sin.[quote]

b Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.[/b]

I believe in myself and my choices. Which according to you I’m not supposed to have choices.[/quote]

Of course you have choices, you are choosing not to believe in God. That is your choice because you made it, therefore obviously you have it. Everyone has been given the ability to make choices. That is what is so neat about God. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because He forces us.

Since you “believe in yourself,” let me ask you this. Can you prevent yourself from death? Did you participate in making yourself alive? Think about what you are saying. You cannot control either life nor death – how can you control your eternal destiny? [quote]

bTell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?[/b]

The source of my beliefs is I have not seen anything that proves there is a higher being or beings. There are so many different religious beliefs out there who’s to say which one is right?[/quote]

I appreciate your honesty here and frankly you sound like me 12 years ago. I made the mistake in thinking that since there were multitudes of “religions” and myraids of “beliefs” even within these religions, that all of them were wrong. Even logically, the choice are this:

(1) They are all wrong – since they all cannot be correct at the same time.

(2) One is correct, the rest of them are wrong.

I have come to realize that, although I believed in choice #1 for a long time, it is actually #2 that is the answer. The Bible is correct, everything else is wrong since it is not of God.

No person can make you or anyone else believe. It will be an act of God if you really are interested in your eternal destiny and hope. [quote]

When innocent children stop dying, then maybe I’ll take a look at it all again. Its because of these reasons I believe there is no god.[/quote]

That is unfortunate indeed. Innocent children die for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with man’s sin. It is unfortunate that you would blame God for man’s choice to sin and thus reject the possibility of His existence. Do not forget, since God is God, no sin goes unpunished forever. When the evildoers meet God and they have not come to Christ – their punishment begins and will never end for all eternity.

335

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I am Jewish [/quote]

Do you practice the Jewish religion or faith?

An apology for writing that you would lead the Crusades if you could? I don’t think so. You are on some apparant war path in this very thread where you seem to be trying to force what you believe on people who don’t seem to care. There are people of all races who are Jewish in faith. My comment had nothing to do with ethnicity thus you get no apology.

336

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
So, you never lied, stolen anything, lusted after a member of the opposite sex, or anything like that? I mean you don’t have to believe in God in order to do these things. Please explain how you are without sin.

Since you “believe in yourself,” let me ask you this. Can you prevent yourself from death? Did you participate in making yourself alive? Think about what you are saying. You cannot control either life nor death – how can you control your eternal destiny?

I appreciate your honesty here and frankly you sound like me 12 years ago. I made the mistake in thinking that since there were multitudes of “religions” and myraids of “beliefs” even within these religions, that all of them were wrong. Even logically, the choice are this:

(1) They are all wrong – since they all cannot be correct at the same time.

(2) One is correct, the rest of them are wrong.

I have come to realize that, although I believed in choice #1 for a long time, it is actually #2 that is the answer. The Bible is correct, everything else is wrong since it is not of God.

No person can make you or anyone else believe. It will be an act of God if you really are interested in your eternal destiny and hope.

That is unfortunate indeed. Innocent children die for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with man’s sin. It is unfortunate that you would blame God for man’s choice to sin and thus reject the possibility of His existence. Do not forget, since God is God, no sin goes unpunished forever. When the evildoers meet God and they have not come to Christ – their punishment begins and will never end for all eternity.
[/quote]

I do not believe in god therefore sins do not exist to me. Having sex out of marriage is not a sin since sins do not exist to me because of my belief in no god. If I dont believe in a god or gods, sins cannot exist in my beliefs. You and your beliefs may think I’m sinning but I’m not according to my beliefs, therefore I do not sin and I have nothing to be forgiven of.

I have prevented myself from death. I was in a car accident when I was younger and I was able to control the car and avoid all of the passing traffic and weave my way out of danger. I was choking to death when I was younger but was able to dislodge the obstruction.

My mom and dad having sex is what created me. What they did caused a chemical reaction and created what I am today.

The god will punish sinners (children killers and rapists) excuse is tiring and utter BS. Innocent children should not at the hands of another being. They havent sinned and god should be protecting them rather than saying “oh well I’ll punish the evil doers when the come up here.” If thats a case thats a very sad god and I would like it to change its ways a bit becaues I’m more humane then it.

337

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’ve been around this site for quite a while and I honestly don’t remember that many religious threads that did not end up with the atheists attacking it. Whether it was Steve or someone else starting these types of threads I have a hunch they would have all pretty much gone the same way.

Atheists do not want to hear anything about God, the Bible or Jesus Christ. Any way that you might package it a similar result would occur.

The difference here, Zeb, is that it is a little like crying wolf. There have been so many posts and threads lately that haven’t added up to much at all that if any one of us actually did start a decent thread on the subject of religion, it would either go unnoticed or fall into the same basic crap that this one has. In the end, this is a bodybuilding website with a politics and world issues forum. People like Steve have made it some kind of mission to make a new thread once a week or once a day trying to force religion on people who aren’t interested. I truly feel people like him would be leading the Crusades if this were an earlier time. They can’t live with or around people who have different beliefs than them without proclaiming how wrong everyone else is regularly. It makes me wonder how people like Steve would get along with a Muslim, a Buddhist, or even an Atheist on a one on one basis. [/quote]

Actually, I think if you look back over all of the religious threads many (perhaps half) have been started by non-Christians. I know there is one going right now begun by “futurdave.” He’s not a Christian to my knowledge.

However, your point is well taken about where we are.

But on the other side of the coin if we can talk about Hillary running for President, mortage interest rates, cartoons, Pearce Brosnan, time travel etc,… I think the forum can handle discussion on Christianity.

And I think it’s a big enough religion to handle those like Steve who are aggressive with their witnessing. And those like you who are more laid back. Because HIS brand of Christianity is not YOUR brand should not bother you.

That might be why God has allowed the many different Christian denominations.

338

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’ve been around this site for quite a while and I honestly don’t remember that many religious threads that did not end up with the atheists attacking it. Whether it was Steve or someone else starting these types of threads I have a hunch they would have all pretty much gone the same way.

Atheists do not want to hear anything about God, the Bible or Jesus Christ. Any way that you might package it a similar result would occur.

The difference here, Zeb, is that it is a little like crying wolf. There have been so many posts and threads lately that haven’t added up to much at all that if any one of us actually did start a decent thread on the subject of religion, it would either go unnoticed or fall into the same basic crap that this one has. In the end, this is a bodybuilding website with a politics and world issues forum. People like Steve have made it some kind of mission to make a new thread once a week or once a day trying to force religion on people who aren’t interested. I truly feel people like him would be leading the Crusades if this were an earlier time. They can’t live with or around people who have different beliefs than them without proclaiming how wrong everyone else is regularly. It makes me wonder how people like Steve would get along with a Muslim, a Buddhist, or even an Atheist on a one on one basis. [/quote]

Good post Prof,

He probably wouldn’t get along with a
Muslim or Buddist very long if he hammered them at every turn like he does here. Kinda makes me wonder about the relationships some Christians have with God.
Is it a Drill Instructor / enlisted guy, Sir, Yes Sir! kind of relationship? If that’s what is called for I’m in a lot of trouble.

339

[quote]ZEB wrote:
And I think it’s a big enough religion to handle those like Steve who are aggressive with their witnessing. And those like you who are more laid back. Because HIS brand of Christianity is not YOUR brand should not bother you.

That might be why God has allowed the many different Christian denominations.

[/quote]

Zeb, he isn’t just aggressive, he is irritating. It is like watching the writings of a Jehova’s Witness on crack.

340

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

When innocent children stop dying, then maybe I’ll take a look at it all again. Its because of these reasons I believe there is no god.

That is unfortunate indeed. Innocent children die for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with man’s sin. It is unfortunate that you would blame God for man’s choice to sin and thus reject the possibility of His existence. Do not forget, since God is God, no sin goes unpunished forever. When the evildoers meet God and they have not come to Christ – their punishment begins and will never end for all eternity.[/quote]

The following issue has been discussed on a different thread and I’m interested in your opinion:

You stated above that the suffering of innocent children can be considered evil that results from the exertion of free will by “evildoers”. As a result, these “evildoers” will suffer eternal punishment.

The value of this freedom of will, although it can lead to suffering, lies therein, that it enables us to make choices, most of all moral choices, choices to create moral good and conversely moral evil, correct? Simplified, the ability to choose could be considered necessary in order for us to be “human”, a creation in God’s own image.

I still wonder, though, how it can be that an innocent child would have to suffer the consequences of “natural evil”, i.e. evil which is not the consequence of the exertion of free will. What about disease, disasters, etc.? Not all of these cases have their causation in a sinful deed of some “evildoer”. How would you explain this?

341

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

OK – do you think that lying, stealing, having sex with another man’s wife, are good things? What do you call these things then?

Certainly not. That has been addressed in my original post (see above), as well as in a follow-up post (see below). Non-believers aren’t saying that these behaviors are good, they just don’t attach any theological qualifiers to them. If “sin” is a crime against God, and one does not believe in God, it is not a “sin”. It is still a bad behavior, and is still not beneficial to society, but there are no eternal consequences attached.

OK – you want to call these types of behaviors “bad,” instead of sin – I have no problem with that. But let me ask you something on this point.
[/quote]

I never said one way or the other what I want to call these behaviors. That is irrelvant to the point I am making.

A fair and interesting question. Could it be possible that we are not born with an innate sense of right and wrong? Could it be possible that that is something that must be taught and learned?

I was taught at a young age the difference between right and wrong. I was taught by my parents, grandparents, relatives, friends’ parents, teachers, etc… When I was good, I was rewarded (with love, praise, attention), and when I was bad I was punished (scolded, spanked, etc.). I was always given and shown love, even when I was bad. Because of this nurturing, I lead a good (moral) life.

I currently work with individuals who were never taught that difference, who have no “conscience”. When I say that, I don’t mean that they know the difference between right and wrong, and wrong is more appealing, I mean they literally have no sense that their actions are bad, other than the fact that they could be punished by the court system. Even the thought of being caught doesn’t make them think that their actions are wrong, just that they can get caught. They did not have loving parents who taught them this difference. Yet, they started in life the same as me, a “blank slate” morally. What happened to their “conscience”?