To All The Unbelievers

[Professor_X]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

So you have no real interest in the discssion taking place in this thread, your presence here is what? thread police?[/quote]

What discussion? You mean the posts made by Steve screaming “what will you do about your sin” and your posts blabbing onward with nothing but insults for an entire religion? This is a discussion?

[quote]
I am not playing games I am interested as to why Steveo and Zeb has accepted their faith but does not wish to question it further than what they have learnt in the bible, I think Steveo and Zeb would like to convert non beleivers, this may not be their main goal but from the PM’s I have received I am certain that they would like to convert non beleivers like myself.[/quote]

And I am letting you know that there are many who wish Zeb and Steve would shut up because it isn’t like they are representing anyone very well at all. You are choosing quite an easy target by even focusing on them. That doesn’t exactly speak too highly of yourself either.

[Electric_E]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

So you have no real interest in the discssion taking place in this thread, your presence here is what? thread police?

What discussion? You mean the posts made by Steve screaming “what will you do about your sin” and your posts blabbing onward with nothing but insults for an entire religion? This is a discussion?

I am not playing games I am interested as to why Steveo and Zeb has accepted their faith but does not wish to question it further than what they have learnt in the bible, I think Steveo and Zeb would like to convert non beleivers, this may not be their main goal but from the PM’s I have received I am certain that they would like to convert non beleivers like myself.

And I am letting you know that there are many who wish Zeb and Steve would shut up because it isn’t like they are representing anyone very well at all. You are choosing quite an easy target by even focusing on them. That doesn’t exactly speak too highly of yourself either.[/quote]

Everyone else who wishes that Zeb and Steveo would shut up have probably stopped reading this thread by now or at least stopped posting in it, again I do not understand your reason for posting?

I have some questions to ask these guys, they have some questions to ask, its a kinda back and forth type thing which to me equals a discussion, OK so this may not be the voted ‘debate of te century’ but I do not see how it is doing any harm.

Do you find my posts insulting? In a day and age of freedom of speech I should be allowed to voice my opinions just as much as the next man.

[Professor_X]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

Do you find my posts insulting? In a day and age of freedom of speech I should be allowed to voice my opinions just as much as the next man.
[/quote]

Who is stopping you from voicing an opinion? Why try to stop me from telling you how stupid your opinions come across? I told Steve the same thing. No one is in need of hearing you pretend like you understand the Bible. Everything you know, according to you, is hearsay. That makes you the wrong person to be speaking out the way you are. I am still waiting on your response as to why someone would consider themselves a “passionate atheist”. You sure do care a lot…for no reason.

[Electric_E]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

Do you find my posts insulting? In a day and age of freedom of speech I should be allowed to voice my opinions just as much as the next man.

Who is stopping you from voicing an opinion? Why try to stop me from telling you how stupid your opinions come across? I told Steve the same thing. No one is in need of hearing you pretend like you understand the Bible. Everything you know, according to you, is hearsay. That makes you the wrong person to be speaking out the way you are. I am still waiting on your response as to why someone would consider themselves a “passionate atheist”. You sure do care a lot…for no reason.[/quote]

Ok so its hard for you to appreciate how someone could be a passionate atheist,

lets just say hypothetically speaking that the following scenario could be a reason to be ‘passionatley atheist’

Born into a loving caring family, mother and father are Christians, not devout bible bashers but go to church sometimes, parents are decent law abiding tax paying quiet happy people.

Then at age of 7 both parents are killed in a road accident by a dickhead arsehole drunk driver.

6 months after parents being murdered, whilst in the ‘care’ of local trusted priest start to be sexually abused by said preist, this continues for sometime.

Shoot forward to present day, where life is a bit tough and finacially very difficult. also live with the fact that parents murderer is now free from jail living in same city and is continuing to live a crime filled life that brings much wealth.

Hypothetically speaking, could you appreciate someone in that position having a bit of an issue with god and Christianity?

I dont wish to start arguing with you Prof, you are twice my size FFS! I appologise if my posts seem idiotic and insulting, but trust me I am not targeting Steveo or zeb, I really would like to understand why these guys do not wish to ask more questions about what they have been taught, I can be crass and childish at times I hold my hands up to that ut I am doing my best to keep a lid on it and have an adult conversation/debate.

Peace

[steveo5801]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Steve, you consider yourself a prophet?

Nope, just a believer who is concerned about the eternal destiny of others. That’s all…

How does your concern translate over to making people upset and close their ears to an entire faith?[/quote]

Did you not read the verses which show What Jesus Did? (WDJD = What Did Jesus Do?).

Since believers are to emulate Him, I am “speaking,” or typing the Gospel for Him. Just like He was rejected and told His followers that they would be also, He continued to preach the Word and commands ALL true Christians to do so (Matthew 28, for example).

I am sorry that “feelings” are hurt and people are bothered, but I much rather bother people to get out of the burning building (i.e. Judgment Day to come) then have them perish in the fire.

Think about this; read your Bible for yourself – then after you have really thought about what the Bible says and what Jesus says, then post. Before that you are only wasting your time because you have no Biblical basis for your whinning.

[steveo5801]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

I do not understand how and why Jesus died for our sins?

What good does it do?

Even if it was his destiny and Jesus died on purpose for our sins, how does his death help anyone? What is the point?
What does it prove?[/quote]

These are some of the Biblical answers:

(1) Everyone is a sinner – we all sin because we are sinners by nature. We all inherited Adam’s sin (our original progenitor).

(2) God’s righteousness demands a penalty for sin (“the wages [payment due sin] is death”).

(3) God’s rules demands the shedding of blood. This began with animal sacrifice, but the Bible pointed to a Messiah who would come and pay the ultimate and infiniate price (see Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12).

(4) While animal sacrifices had to be repeated year after year, Jesus died once for all.

(5) Since Jesus is God, His blood has infinite value and removes the penatly for sin.

(6) When someone believes upon Jesus, that person gets credited with Jesus’ righteousness which then causes God not to look upon our sin, but upon Jesus and thus we then can enter into the joy of the Lord (Heaven) after we pass on in this life.

The picture for all of this is the Jewish passover. The Jewish people had to sacrifice the lamb, apply the blood to the doorposts of their homes, and thus when God saw the blood of the Lamb, His wrath would pass over the home.

When we believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit of God applies Jesus’ shed blood to the “doorposts” of our hearts, and then when we die and stand before God (as EVERYONE will), when God sees Jesus’ blood upon us, His wrath then passes over and we can enter into Heaven with Him.

Please check out the Gospel of John in the Bible and read it. Also look up the references I gave in Isaiah and the passover story in Exodus. Really ask God to open His truths to you.

[steveo5801]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

I am a passionate atheist, and I am having a discussion with some passionate Christians about faith, you do not seem to be a passionate beliver or nonbeleiver Prof so why do you care enough to post in this thread?

I believe in God. I just don’t believe in playing games with people who have no other goal but to degrade those who believe differently than they do. You happen to be playing games. You aren’t asking these questions to gain a deeper understanding of what I or anyone else believes. A “passionate atheist” shouldn’t be worried about what a “passionate Christian” believes. I am, however, interested in how someone could PASSIONATELY not believe in anything with regards to a higher power. That makes no sense at all. Why so much emotion…for nothing? [/quote]

I am actually more interested in how can someone call themselves “Christian” as you do, and not follow what Jesus or the Bible says?

[steveo5801]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

I am a passionate atheist, and I am having a discussion with some passionate Christians about faith, you do not seem to be a passionate beliver or nonbeleiver Prof so why do you care enough to post in this thread?

I believe in God. I just don’t believe in playing games with people who have no other goal but to degrade those who believe differently than they do. You happen to be playing games. You aren’t asking these questions to gain a deeper understanding of what I or anyone else believes. A “passionate atheist” shouldn’t be worried about what a “passionate Christian” believes. I am, however, interested in how someone could PASSIONATELY not believe in anything with regards to a higher power. That makes no sense at all. Why so much emotion…for nothing?

So you have no real interest in the discssion taking place in this thread, your presence here is what? thread police?

I am not playing games I am interested as to why Steveo and Zeb has accepted their faith but does not wish to question it further than what they have learnt in the bible, I think Steveo and Zeb would like to convert non beleivers, this may not be their main goal but from the PM’s I have received I am certain that they would like to convert non beleivers like myself.

So if they wish to convert me then I would like to learn more, why is that a problem for you?

[/quote]

Good post – I was wondering why the Professor has said that there is no discussion going on, and then tries to stop the discussion that does go on. Seems like “he doth protest too much…”

Anyway, I just want to correct you on something. While I cannot speak for Zeb, I can certainly speak for myself. I am always questioning things that I read in the Bible as I study it further each day and each year.

Faith, however, is just that. Faith cannot be questioned by its very nature. I have placed my faith upon Jesus and His Word and have accepted, on faith, the things God says. That does not mean, as some would accuse, that I throw my intellect away. This does mean, that my intellect cannot drive what I think about God, since God’s ways cannot be fully apprehended simply by the intellect. We dealt with this in other threads, but the main thing is this: If we could simply put God and all His ways in our own minds – i.e. we could contain God in our minds – then He would cease to be God, since we would be greater than He. If God is God, doesn’t it make sense that we cannot wrap our minds around all of His ways (see Isaiah 55 for where God says that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts).

With this said, I think that I just sit there, shut my mind down, and don’t ponder and think and even question. But it is a questioning IN FAITH – and that is the difference.

The Bible tells us that “without faith it is impossible to plaase God.”

We are saved by faith and live by faith and read God’s word by faith, and even question by faith.

Faith is the key!

[Professor_X]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

I am a passionate atheist, and I am having a discussion with some passionate Christians about faith, you do not seem to be a passionate beliver or nonbeleiver Prof so why do you care enough to post in this thread?

I believe in God. I just don’t believe in playing games with people who have no other goal but to degrade those who believe differently than they do. You happen to be playing games. You aren’t asking these questions to gain a deeper understanding of what I or anyone else believes. A “passionate atheist” shouldn’t be worried about what a “passionate Christian” believes. I am, however, interested in how someone could PASSIONATELY not believe in anything with regards to a higher power. That makes no sense at all. Why so much emotion…for nothing?

I am actually more interested in how can someone call themselves “Christian” as you do, and not follow what Jesus or the Bible says?

[/quote]

Are YOU following what the bible says? I quoted scripture that you aren’t following. Why?

[Professor_X]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

Hypothetically speaking, could you appreciate someone in that position having a bit of an issue with god and Christianity?

[/quote]

Appreciate? Yes. Everyone has a different experience in life that leads them to certain conclusions. However, to blame a tragedy itself for emotional rejection of God would be to ignore the many who have been through tragedies and continued to believe.

[steveo5801]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

So you have no real interest in the discssion taking place in this thread, your presence here is what? thread police?

What discussion? You mean the posts made by Steve screaming “what will you do about your sin” and your posts blabbing onward with nothing but insults for an entire religion? This is a discussion?

I am not playing games I am interested as to why Steveo and Zeb has accepted their faith but does not wish to question it further than what they have learnt in the bible, I think Steveo and Zeb would like to convert non beleivers, this may not be their main goal but from the PM’s I have received I am certain that they would like to convert non beleivers like myself.

And I am letting you know that there are many who wish Zeb and Steve would shut up because it isn’t like they are representing anyone very well at all. You are choosing quite an easy target by even focusing on them. That doesn’t exactly speak too highly of yourself either.

Everyone else who wishes that Zeb and Steveo would shut up have probably stopped reading this thread by now or at least stopped posting in it, again I do not understand your reason for posting?

I have some questions to ask these guys, they have some questions to ask, its a kinda back and forth type thing which to me equals a discussion, OK so this may not be the voted ‘debate of te century’ but I do not see how it is doing any harm.

Do you find my posts insulting? In a day and age of freedom of speech I should be allowed to voice my opinions just as much as the next man.
[/quote]

This is often the case with people that take the so called “liberal” position. They are all for freedom of expression for themselves and their opinions, but not for those who oppose them – especially born-again Christians.

I do appreciate the opportunity to ask and answer questions – have a discussion – and I also appreciate your civility in doing so.

[steveo5801]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

I am a passionate atheist, and I am having a discussion with some passionate Christians about faith, you do not seem to be a passionate beliver or nonbeleiver Prof so why do you care enough to post in this thread?

I believe in God. I just don’t believe in playing games with people who have no other goal but to degrade those who believe differently than they do. You happen to be playing games. You aren’t asking these questions to gain a deeper understanding of what I or anyone else believes. A “passionate atheist” shouldn’t be worried about what a “passionate Christian” believes. I am, however, interested in how someone could PASSIONATELY not believe in anything with regards to a higher power. That makes no sense at all. Why so much emotion…for nothing?

I am actually more interested in how can someone call themselves “Christian” as you do, and not follow what Jesus or the Bible says?

Are YOU following what the bible says? I quoted scripture that you aren’t following. Why?[/quote]

Who’s the prophet now. Perhaps you can enlighten me on which ones that I am not following.

[Electric_E]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

Hypothetically speaking, could you appreciate someone in that position having a bit of an issue with god and Christianity?

Appreciate? Yes. Everyone has a different experience in life that leads them to certain conclusions. However, to blame a tragedy itself for emotional rejection of God would be to ignore the many who have been through tragedies and continued to believe.[/quote]

Yes prof Ignore those other people for the moment, people who have suffered tragedy in there life and have kept or found faith in god afterwards ia of absoloute no relevance to your original question, you asked how could someone be a passionaite athiest, I gave you an example of a a life that could lead someone to feel that way.

What other people feel right now is not important, I hope I have answered your question satisfactorally for you and that you may now desist in policing my posts

[Professor_X]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

What other people feel right now is not important, I hope I have answered your question satisfactorally for you and that you may now desist in policing my posts

[/quote]

My main goal in posting at all has been accomplished. It was simply to show you and anyone else reading this that Steve doesn’t represent all or even most Christians.

[Electric_E]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

What other people feel right now is not important, I hope I have answered your question satisfactorally for you and that you may now desist in policing my posts

My main goal in posting at all has been accomplished. It was simply to show you and anyone else reading this that Steve doesn’t represent all or even most Christians. [/quote]

Thats cool, I was aware that Steveo is only representing himself, and I am hapy to listen to what he has to say in the knowledge that his posts are not nesecarally reflected the views and opinions of other Christians.

Same way I am sure he is aware that my views and opinions do not reflect other atheist’s opinions.

[steveo5801]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

What other people feel right now is not important, I hope I have answered your question satisfactorally for you and that you may now desist in policing my posts

My main goal in posting at all has been accomplished. It was simply to show you and anyone else reading this that Steve doesn’t represent all or even most Christians. [/quote]

I represent God by being a born-again believer in Jesus Christ and I therefore follow Jesus. My example of how to proclaim God’s Word follows His. Anyone can read the Gospels for themselves. They would then see who truly is following Him…

[steveo5801]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

What other people feel right now is not important, I hope I have answered your question satisfactorally for you and that you may now desist in policing my posts

My main goal in posting at all has been accomplished. It was simply to show you and anyone else reading this that Steve doesn’t represent all or even most Christians.

Thats cool, I was aware that Steveo is only representing himself, and I am hapy to listen to what he has to say in the knowledge that his posts are not nesecarally reflected the views and opinions of other Christians.

Same way I am sure he is aware that my views and opinions do not reflect other atheist’s opinions.
[/quote]

More important then this, we can do so in a calm, friendly, way and have good back and forth discussions, etc.

[steveo5801]

Well, after 9 pages, nobody seemed to answer the challenge that I originally gave when I first began this thread.

So here goes to all of you scoffers and unbelievers once again:

The Challenge: What are YOU [individually] going to do about your SIN?

The Bible says that “…the wages [just payment] for sin is death” – physical death as well as spiritual death.

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

Please do the following in your answer:

(1) Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.

(2) Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.

(3) If you don’t believe in the Bible, don’t use the Bible against itself. That is not logical. If you don’t believe in something, then don’t use that something in your answer.

(4)Tell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?

So, let’s see if there is at least one intelligent scoffer that can answer my challenge question, while covering all of the four points above.

We will see…

[system]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Well, after 9 pages, nobody seemed to answer the challenge that I originally gave when I first began this thread.[/quote]

Many people have written in various ways both the only response that makes sense for an atheist and the big problem with your little “challenge”. Your question in the context that you have asked it is totally nonsensical…and your stipulations are just silly.

[quote]So here goes to all of you scoffers and unbelievers once again:

The Challenge: What are YOU [individually] going to do about your SIN?[/quote]

I reject the very idea that you call SIN. Since there is no good reason to believe that such a thing exists, I see no reason to do anything about it. I very seldom bother dealing with nonexistant things.

[quote]The Bible says that “…the wages [just payment] for sin is death” – physical death as well as spiritual death.

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.[/quote]

And I should believe your bible because? It gets its authority from where? If I don’t believe in your god then everything you are on about in this thread is total nonsense in the context of my worldview. If you fail to grasp this then you are beyond the reach of rational discussion and are incapable of rational thought.

[quote]Please do the following in your answer:

(1) Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.[/quote]

Hey, I did…NOTHING…it does not exist.

(2) Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.

This would be fine if your question actually made sense. I feel it is within reason to address the inherent flaw of the question being asked when responding to that question.

(3) If you don’t believe in the Bible, don’t use the Bible against itself. That is not logical. If you don’t believe in something, then don’t use that something in your answer.

YOU specifically make reference to the bible, then put in a stipulation that I can’t address this in my reply? Interesting…sorry, you can’t have it both ways. Beyond that, this makes no sense! If I don’t believe in something I cannot use it against itself? What?? Sorry, but demonstrating that something is not internally consistant does not require that I believe in any of it.

(4)Tell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?

Ummm…what beliefs are we talking about here? Are you asking for the authority behind my non-belief in your deity and the corresponding concept of sin? I need no authority to reject claims for which there is no good evidence. This isn’t even directly related to your question in my opinion.

What exactly is your “authority” anyway?

[quote]So, let’s see if there is at least one intelligent scoffer that can answer my challenge question, while covering all of the four points above.

We will see…[/quote]

Your original question is nonsensical. Your four points are just ways for you to artificially limit the responses to suit your own goals. They are overly restrictive for no logical reason, and require that I expound on things not directly related to your original question.

In short, your “challenge” is stupid. This has been pointed out to you already. However, if you want…I will post what I considered posting before I decided to address your nonsense in more detail. It’s quite short, and meets all your bogus stipulations. Here it is…

NOTHING

I require no authority to reject unproven claims.

[nephorm]

Ok, I have a challenge for all of you, as well.

Nephorm says, "all whosoevereth posteth on thiseth forumeth, oweth nephorm money.

Eth."

So, here are the rules for those of you who don’t believe in nephorm, or who don’t believe you owe him money.

1. What are YOU going to do about your nephorm debt? I want specific answers… what sexual favors or monetary contributions are YOU willing to perform (or have performed on your behalf)? If you DON’T believe in nephorm, how will you possibly make the bank deposit or find out his account number? Please be specific.

2. Talk only about yourself. Nephorm has goons to deal with everyone else.

3. If you don’t believe in nephorm, don’t use nephorm against himself. Further, if you don’t believe you owe him money, don’t use that in your answer. It isn’t logical to refute the argument by using things you don’t believe.

4. Tell why you don’t believe you owe nephorm. What sources or authorities can you base that claim on?

Q.E.D.