Tipping - Good Idea or Bad Idea

Off Topic
481

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I already said I tip, so how exactly am I cheap? Try again tip monkey.

lol - if you don’t like my “attitude” don’t read my posts. I said I’d prefer them getting higher wages+higher restaurant food prices over tipping and somehow you perceive this as an “attitude.”

[/quote]

We’ve already stated (essentially everyone in this thread who’s had any experience with the restaurant biz) that waiting tables is a job with a high turnover rate because you have to deal with shitty people.

Tipping gives them the incentive to stay with the job and work hard at it. If you pay them higher wages and no tips you’ll end up with worse service. No, the “we’ll just fire them because they should be working hard anyway” theory doesn’t work because not many people can do the job well and it’s not a particularly desirable job (the potential for tips or desperation is essentially the whole reason people take it).

If you can’t understand that…I give up.[/quote]

And I’m saying your quality of service will depend on how the waiter/waitress perceives you. Do you think as guy in his early 20’s in regular clothing would receive the same level of service as a well dressed middle aged man (assuming the restaurant is at capacity)?

I would also say a guaranteed higher wage would lessen the turnover rate and lead to better experienced staff → better service.

[/quote]

Dude. Seriously, you have NO IDEA what you’re talking about. In what world does a GUARANTEED wage produce better results than a PERFORMANCE BASED wage? And why would you assume that a guy in his early 20’s in regular clothes would get better service than a well dressed middle aged man? Insecure much?

Why are you even COMPARING the two?

Let’s pretend for a minute that YOU are a waiter. You have two regular customers: one is an Indian guy with a bad attitude who breaks out the cell phone calculator when he pays the bill and gives you 14.999% and the other one is a middle aged guy who engages you and regularly leaves 20 - 25%. They both arrive at the same time. WHO’S ORDER DO YOU PUT IN FIRST?[/quote]

LOL @ insecurity. I’m simply putting myself in the waiter’s shoes. I want to maximize my income, I would make judgement calls on the people I serve based on their appearance. Obviously if something suggests to me that my initial impression of a customer is wrong of course I would alter my perception. Why is it so hard to believe a waiter would perceive a middle aged well dressed man would tip better than a young college student? Is that really far fetched to you?

You are also mistaken if you think the performance aspect of the job is eliminated. Customers complain about bad service and also praise good service. These people still have to answer to their bosses and can receive raises based on overall customer satisfaction.

482

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

And FUCK YOU to the cheapskates out there. Don’t go out to eat because in America you tip your server. If the service was poor you show it in the gratuity.[/quote]

Why should I leave a tip at all if I receive bad service?[/quote]

Read my second sentence that you quoted.

You don’t have to tip if service was absolute complete shit. But of the hundreds of times I’ve been out to eat, it’s never been so bad that I’ve not tipped. When I get some shlep half-ass jack-off server taking their sweet time, talking to the cooks and not filling up my empty Mountain Dew then they’re only gonna get 10% if they’re lucky.
[/quote]

I read the second line in your quote, that’s why I quoted it. My question is why does bad service deserve a tip? Shouldn’t 10% be given for average service and higher for anything better? The system gives waiters/waitresses incentive to provide supbar service on small tables (getting 10% regardless of quality) and focusing their attention on big tables to maximize their tips. For example a waiter will receive a 10% tip instead of the full 15% on a couple spending $50 because he/she neglected them, but make up the loss by receiving a 2-3% higher tip on a table of 6 spending $300.

[/quote]

Also THIS.

483

[quote]therajraj wrote:

LOL @ insecurity. I’m simply putting myself in the waiter’s shoes. I want to maximize my income, I would make judgement calls on the people I serve based on their appearance. Obviously if something suggests to me that my initial impression of a customer is wrong of course I would alter my perception. Why is it so hard to believe a waiter would perceive a middle aged well dressed man would tip better than a young college student? Is that really far fetched to you?

You are also mistaken if you think the performance aspect of the job is eliminated. Customers complain about bad service and also praise good service. These people still have to answer to their bosses and can receive raises based on overall customer satisfaction.
[/quote]

With or without tips, a waiter would still likely try harder for the older guy. Why? Because the manager would put a lot more weight behind the older guy’s opinion of the restaurant than a 19-24 year old’s. Performance is upheld to certain standards, but not enough so to come close to 5% of the import that directly based performance income(tips) will have in an employee’s mind.

Furthermore, it’s a restaurant.
Being completely honest, the pay scale is pretty small with little room for improvement. You don’t really get regular raises as it’s not a corporate ladder type job. You might work there for 4 years and get $1.25 an hour raise over those years. Not quite equal to your performance potentially netting you an extra $5-$10 an hour, is it?

484

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I read the second line in your quote, that’s why I quoted it. My question is why does bad service deserve a tip? Shouldn’t 10% be given for average service and higher for anything better? The system gives waiters/waitresses incentive to provide supbar service on small tables (getting 10% regardless of quality) and focusing their attention on big tables to maximize their tips. For example a waiter will receive a 10% tip instead of the full 15% on a couple spending $50 because he/she neglected them, but make up the loss by receiving a 2-3% higher tip on a table of 6 spending $300.

[/quote]

Also THIS.
[/quote]

Why do you assume the larger table is paying 2x as much per person? Seems like you’re skewing your numbers to aid in your example.

It’s more like a 6 person table spending 150 and 2 people spending 50(same amount per person), in which case, the waitress has no extra incentive to cater to the big table.

There’s no obligation for the 2 people to tip if they get screwed for service. Saveski said he always tips 10%, but the waitress isn’t going to know you’re a restaurant owner and assume you’re going to tip 10%. She’s going to try to please everyone and get at least 15% from everyone.

Working in a restaurant is pretty frantic. You don’t have time to commit table triage and pick who you’re going to focus on (unless they’re terribly important, mayor, health inspector, etc).

485

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

LOL @ insecurity. I’m simply putting myself in the waiter’s shoes. I want to maximize my income, I would make judgement calls on the people I serve based on their appearance. Obviously if something suggests to me that my initial impression of a customer is wrong of course I would alter my perception. Why is it so hard to believe a waiter would perceive a middle aged well dressed man would tip better than a young college student? Is that really far fetched to you?

You are also mistaken if you think the performance aspect of the job is eliminated. Customers complain about bad service and also praise good service. These people still have to answer to their bosses and can receive raises based on overall customer satisfaction.
[/quote]

With or without tips, a waiter would still likely try harder for the older guy. Why? Because the manager would put a lot more weight behind the older guy’s opinion of the restaurant than a 19-24 year old’s. Performance is upheld to certain standards, but not enough so to come close to 5% of the import that directly based performance income(tips) will have in an employee’s mind.

Furthermore, it’s a restaurant.
Being completely honest, the pay scale is pretty small with little room for improvement. You don’t really get regular raises as it’s not a corporate ladder type job. You might work there for 4 years and get $1.25 an hour raise over those years. Not quite equal to your performance potentially netting you an extra $5-$10 an hour, is it?[/quote]

That is just ONE example. My point is waitstaff make snap judgements on clients based on their appearance and manage how much time they spend on each table accordingly.

As for the pay, isn’t the system built so that most of their income comes mostly in the form of tips? Whose to say raises would be so meagre under a system where people aren’t tipped?

486

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I read the second line in your quote, that’s why I quoted it. My question is why does bad service deserve a tip? Shouldn’t 10% be given for average service and higher for anything better? The system gives waiters/waitresses incentive to provide supbar service on small tables (getting 10% regardless of quality) and focusing their attention on big tables to maximize their tips. For example a waiter will receive a 10% tip instead of the full 15% on a couple spending $50 because he/she neglected them, but make up the loss by receiving a 2-3% higher tip on a table of 6 spending $300.

[/quote]

Also THIS.
[/quote]

Why do you assume the larger table is paying 2x as much per person? Seems like you’re skewing your numbers to aid in your example.

It’s more like a 6 person table spending 150 and 2 people spending 50(same amount per person), in which case, the waitress has no extra incentive to cater to the big table.

There’s no obligation for the 2 people to tip if they get screwed for service. Saveski said he always tips 10%, but the waitress isn’t going to know you’re a restaurant owner and assume you’re going to tip 10%. She’s going to try to please everyone and get at least 15% from everyone.

Working in a restaurant is pretty frantic. You don’t have time to commit table triage and pick who you’re going to focus on (unless they’re terribly important, mayor, health inspector, etc).[/quote]

Haha, yeah I noticed that after I posted, no one complained so I didn’t change it. Good Eye.

But even if you were to equate it, losing 5% on a $50 bill - $2.50 is not as much as gaining 2%-3% on a $150 bill - $3-4.50. Stretch that over a year, it will make a large impact.

The thing is most people will tip at least 10% even if the service is poor to mediocre - just read some of the comments made in this thread as proof.

487

[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Look all I’m saying with the matter of tipping out is this. A server makes 8 dollars an hour. They tip out based on what is sold and who they serve.So if you don’t tip they still have to give money to their support staff.

Someone who does not tip on a 50 dollar meal creates the following

  1. is taking 1 hour hour away from a table that could hypothetically tip. (-7.5 dollars)
  2. are asking for a service that requires a reward for the management, bus boy, bouncer and cook -20% tip out of sales (-10 dollars)

So if you go and spend an hour and don’t tip on a 50 dollar meal you have cost that server 17.5 dollars for that hour in lost tips and mandatory tip out, BUT they still get their wage(8 dollars)! Effectively that hour made that server -9.50. They paid to serve you!

This is the reality of their job. [/quote]

I’m only on page two of this shitty thread and I’ve already seen you make some of the most asinine posts I’ve ever seen on T-Nation in the course. This one has to take the cake. I’m sure some other person that doesn’t suck at math and logic as bad as you has pointed this out in the course of the next 15 pages of this train wreck, but jesus christ.

You are telling me that 100% of a 20% tip goes to management, busy boys, cooks, and bouncers? That is the only possible way you can come up with a -$10 figure in this instance. That is absolutely comical.

LOL!!!

488

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

3 dollars man! 1 buck each. Bathroom guy just ignore him if you really don’t want to tip him. 2 bucks…

Cover is also a hectic job. [/quote]

How do you justify not tipping the bathroom guy but mandating a dollar be given to a bartender for handing you a water from the fridge???

489

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

That being said you technically cannot auto grat unless the group is larger than 8 people generally.[/quote]

LOL…do you just make up the rules as you go along and type the first thing that comes to mind? You do realize that there are no laws establishing what is and is not subject to service charges right? A restaurant can charge an auto grat for a single person if they wish…idiot

490

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

My meaning is that regardless of how it happens: the average servers wage is around 25-30 dollars an hour. Just because there is some place that makes way less and there is unemployment doesn’t mean that server doesn’t deserve their money.

That logical applies no more to a server who just so happens to reserve tips than it does to you.

As for my making of buck. On a saturday night I make maybe 38 per hour. But I put in alot of work while the bar is closed to make that possible so the average is closer to 25.

What a person makes though is irrelevant to how much they helped you. I tip because my bartender/server/barber did me a long personal service, one for which their salary does NOT reward them.
[/quote]

This is so stupid I don’t even know where to begin…you really think the average server in america makes 30 fucking dollars an hour?? LMFAO…you live in a fucking fantasy land…I don’t know the stats (but that makes two of us) but there is no way in hell the average server makes anywhere close to that…that is just funny

You keep arguing that these professions are not being REWARDED with their base salary…NO SHIT!!! that is exactly what October Girl has been saying from the get go but you are too dumb to realize it…do you not understand what LIVING WAGE means? Or can you just not comprehend what she is saying when she says she wouldn’t mind them making it??? holy fuck man…

491

[quote]CBear84 wrote:

you have solutions for your, “I hate tipping” dilemma.

-in your preferred scenario, the price of your meal at a restaurant would likely triple, at least. unless the food quality went to that of McDonalds.

[/quote]

LOL this is just comical. It amazes me how many people in this thread seem to have never left the friendly confines of North America.

I’m currently in Scotland. I just went to a pub in Glasgow last night. My drinks were about 3 pounds per pint or less. This is actually cheaper than what I pay in the US. Weird, I would have expected them to be AT LEAST triple that…I don’t know WHY they weren’t 9 pounds. Weird

Oh yeah, I went to a TGI Fridays last week while over here. The cost of my meal was about 20 pounds. I was expecting it to be AT LEAST 60, since, you know, no tip was required and all the costs were built into the food. Imagine by shock and awe when my tab was only about 20!!!

492

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]CBear84 wrote:

you have solutions for your, “I hate tipping” dilemma.

-in your preferred scenario, the price of your meal at a restaurant would likely triple, at least. unless the food quality went to that of McDonalds.

[/quote]

LOL this is just comical. It amazes me how many people in this thread seem to have never left the friendly confines of North America.

I’m currently in Scotland. I just went to a pub in Glasgow last night. My drinks were about 3 pounds per pint or less. This is actually cheaper than what I pay in the US. Weird, I would have expected them to be AT LEAST triple that…I don’t know WHY they weren’t 9 pounds. Weird

Oh yeah, I went to a TGI Fridays last week while over here. The cost of my meal was about 20 pounds. I was expecting it to be AT LEAST 60, since, you know, no tip was required and all the costs were built into the food. Imagine by shock and awe when my tab was only about 20!!![/quote]

Oh yeah, I also got refills in a timely manner at the Fridays, my food was served quickly and was cooked properly, and the wait staff was friendly…I left a couple extra pounds, and all were happy…

I would be very happy if this model was adopted in the US

493

[quote]overstand wrote:

And the kid that was saying he makes $38/hr as a waiter is proof the system is broken. No job that takes 0 education or skill should make that kind of money. And before you jump all over me, I’ve worked as a waiter. It’s not that hard. Work a couple weeks of construction and then bitch about “the customers were so rude”.

@ other angry T-Waiters: We understand that waiters aren’t paid minimum wage. The whole entire point of this thread is that waiters should get paid a fair wage and we should get rid of the system of tipping. [/quote]

This…its amazing to me that people don’t see this

494

[quote]TunaMonkey wrote:

Fair enough, I would rather pay directly for the service. Have you been to a country where they do not tip? The service is at best passable and nonchalant and at worst hostile.[/quote]

WROooooooooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggggggggg

495

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I already said I tip, so how exactly am I cheap? Try again tip monkey.

lol - if you don’t like my “attitude” don’t read my posts. I said I’d prefer them getting higher wages+higher restaurant food prices over tipping and somehow you perceive this as an “attitude.”

[/quote]

We’ve already stated (essentially everyone in this thread who’s had any experience with the restaurant biz) that waiting tables is a job with a high turnover rate because you have to deal with shitty people.

Tipping gives them the incentive to stay with the job and work hard at it. If you pay them higher wages and no tips you’ll end up with worse service. No, the “we’ll just fire them because they should be working hard anyway” theory doesn’t work because not many people can do the job well and it’s not a particularly desirable job (the potential for tips or desperation is essentially the whole reason people take it).

If you can’t understand that…I give up.[/quote]

And I’m saying your quality of service will depend on how the waiter/waitress perceives you. Do you think as guy in his early 20’s in regular clothing would receive the same level of service as a well dressed middle aged man (assuming the restaurant is at capacity)?

I would also say a guaranteed higher wage would lessen the turnover rate and lead to better experienced staff → better service.

[/quote]

Dude. Seriously, you have NO IDEA what you’re talking about. In what world does a GUARANTEED wage produce better results than a PERFORMANCE BASED wage? And why would you assume that a guy in his early 20’s in regular clothes would get better service than a well dressed middle aged man? Insecure much?

Why are you even COMPARING the two?

Let’s pretend for a minute that YOU are a waiter. You have two regular customers: one is an Indian guy with a bad attitude who breaks out the cell phone calculator when he pays the bill and gives you 14.999% and the other one is a middle aged guy who engages you and regularly leaves 20 - 25%. They both arrive at the same time. WHO’S ORDER DO YOU PUT IN FIRST?[/quote]

1st) I agree with the premise but…

Japan (for example) would be such a world. No tipping and the service is generally better than in the States. That said, I bet if they WERE given tips here…

eh, apples and oranges. I just thought it was funny that “such a world” does in fact exist.

496

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]parsley wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]parsley wrote:
Some waiters get paid pretty shitty, so i always tip at a restaurant especially because my friends are assholes and will leave change as tips anyway.

Just move the decimal over to the left one place, thats 10%, double that for 20% add 1/2 of the 10% for 15%. [/quote]

SEE!!! that is the problem. I realize they get paid less and get taxed on my bill. Just pay them more and eliminate the 8% tax and I would like it so much more.

[/quote]

Yeah but like dnl said before, you can decide what to tip your server, if at all, based on their performance. So looking at it from a managerial stand point aren’t tips good because the staff may be more motivated to cater to the customer as best they can and as dnl said “bend over backwards” for the customer?[/quote]

Sure, but as a manager once told me, “It’s your job to do a good job, if you don’t, find a new job.”

I heard a guy on the radio compare it to when he went to Ace Hardware and the guy there helped him solve all his questions to a sprinkler problem. Now that guy definitely deserved a tip, but … no tip jar. Just a good guy doing a good job for his paycheck.

[/quote]

edit: I’m not reading thru 20 pages but has the issue of tipping the cook actually come up? You know, the person who actually does all the work and literally takes the heat in the kitchen…

497

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Japan (for example) would be such a world. No tipping and the service is generally better than in the States. That said, I bet if they WERE given tips here…

eh, apples and oranges. I just thought it was funny that “such a world” does in fact exist. [/quote]

Exactly. What you have to keep in mind though is a lot of the posters in this thread grew up in Smalltownville USA and went to high school 5 miles south of their parents house, went to community college 5 miles north, married the girl that lived 5 miles to the east, and now live 5 miles to the west…

499

I’m not Scottish (as indicated by the DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA tag below my avatar) but if you don’t think British folks have more world travel experience than Americans, I don’t know what to tell you

500

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’m not Scottish (as indicated by the DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA tag below my avatar) but if you don’t think British folks have more world travel experience than Americans, I don’t know what to tell you[/quote]

I don’t know about the “average” Brit but Brits do get around. They are underfoot whenever I go. I suspect they have their share of homebodies but for world travelers (at least in English speaking parts of the world) it is hard to beat people from the UK.