Tiger Mom

[quote]SpnKick540 wrote:

[quote]ethanwest wrote:
My girlfriend is Chinese, and was raised in Asia by very controlling parents. She got straight A’s and went to Carnegie Melon university and graduated with a double master in computer science and statistics. She had a pretty good job.

I’m American. I dropped out of college. I started a company. I hired her recently and I pay her salary now.[/quote]

Told from this point of view, your position seems favorable. However, were your company to fail, she could simply be hired elsewhere with a comparable salary. You, on the otherhand, would not have the same option.

I’m all for ingenuity, but the hard work she put in ultimately gives her more options than you…and that hard work certainly shouldn’t be minimized just because you took a different route to success.[/quote]

Cereal Entrepreneurship, cereally.

[quote]SpnKick540 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]SpnKick540 wrote:

[quote]ethanwest wrote:
My girlfriend is Chinese, and was raised in Asia by very controlling parents. She got straight A’s and went to Carnegie Melon university and graduated with a double master in computer science and statistics. She had a pretty good job.

I’m American. I dropped out of college. I started a company. I hired her recently and I pay her salary now.[/quote]

Told from this point of view, your position seems favorable. However, were your company to fail, she could simply be hired elsewhere with a comparable salary. You, on the otherhand, would not have the same option.

I’m all for ingenuity, but the hard work she put in ultimately gives her more options than you…and that hard work certainly shouldn’t be minimized just because you took a different route to success.[/quote]

I don’t think he was taking anything away from her, just illustrating the point that one way does not necessarily mean you’ll end up better.[/quote]

If I misinterpretted the intention of the post, apologies. But even re-reading it, the general feel is “She did all this work just to end up being under me…a guy who dropped out of college.”[/quote]

You make a good point, and I completely agree. Whenever someone asks me about education I always recommend going to school and taking it seriously. I think you need to take education seriously whether it be formal “college” education or whether you learn on you own. She’s super smart and I have the utmost respect for the route she took. I made my comment in the way I did because I was trying to point out that two different cultures can put emphasis on things completely differently and neither is necessarily wrong.

I worked as a police officer for 27 years. One night I went to a call of a runaway teenager. The call came from a Chinese family that owned one of the restaurants in town. It was their son who had run away. The call was treated with urgency because it was reported that he had run from the house with his father’s handgun. He was raised in a similar fashion as described in this initial post. He was exceptionally smart and while at the house I noted a report card on the refrigerator. The card was by most standards remarkable. All A’s with the exception of one B. Although I cannot confirm this 100%, I was always under the belief that the discourse between family members that caused him to leave the house that night, was an argument over his B grade.

The letter he had left behind, although not a true suicide note, gave a strong indication that he intended on harming himself. An extensive search was done, but due to heavy rains that night, we were not able to locate him. The next morning his body was discovered in a wooded area in a nearby neighborhood by a man walking his dog. The young man had in fact shot himself.

Now I consider myself to be strict as a parent but when you drive a kid to succeed to the extent that this woman is suggesting, you cannot always be sure that the results you get are going to justify what you could be doing to the kid in other ways. I strongly encourage my kids to be all that they can be, but who am I to demand they learn the piano or get straight A’s or I will punish them with outlandish acts of terrorism. Who in their right mind would set a little kids stuffed animals on fire? I also had my children so I could enjoy watching them develop into individuals, not program them into who and what I want them to be. I want them to be in school plays, play sports and do all those things that make life for a kid enjoyable. They choose what path they want to take. All I ask is that they try their best to succeed at whatever that choice entails and I demand that the choice in no way deviate from what I have taught them is morally right.
I have never been on of those parents that tries to be my kids “friend”. I haven’t hesitated to punish them when it was warranted but I also never held back telling how much they mean to me and how much I love them. And they have turned out pretty darned good.

How to motivate our children to succeed… There are pretty much two ways to COERCE anyone, the carrot and the stick, but MOTIVATION comes from within. The “chinese” way, is primarily “the stick” (you BETTER get A’s or ELSE), while the “american” way is typically the carrot (if you get on the honor roll, I’ll buy you a play station). Neither is INTRINSICALLY motivating the child.

I think that neither way is very productive or contributes to a child’s independence, identity or self worth. The “chinese way” tends to stifle creativity and relies on rote memorization, repetition, and hours practicing a given subject in a rather “dogmatic” way - brutal, yet effective. The consequence being that if there is a below par student, then all kinds of unpleasant things can go wrong. On the flip side, the “american way” (at least as has been popular for the last 30 years or so) is leaving SO much potential on the table, it’s almost criminal. These “american” kids get away with all kinds of behavior and laziness that would be dealt with swiftly and severely in a “non-american” household. And the test results are showing the ineffectiveness of this way of “coddling” kids and worrying about their self esteem to point where they hand out trophies to the LOSERS at kids intramural sports. That’s just fucking ridiculous. If I had to choose between the two, I would say that the “chinese way” produces more consistent results of “moderate success” (good grades, good college, good job). The “american way” is simply… mediocre.

Fortunately there are plenty of different options, and NOT just the “american” or “chinese” way. My eldest son is an honor roll student, plays several instruments, plays sports (was soccer, but now he wants to learn football), will have his eagle scout rank in about a year, won the chess tournament at his school and is a active member in the chess club, was on a rubics cube team that placed FIFTH in the nation and he actually won money earlier this year, last week just received a presidential award for volunteer service - I could keep going… and I don’t MAKE him do anything!

I lead from the front - by example. I talk to him about what he wants in life. I ask him questions about what he THINKS. I offer alternatives to his ideas. I play devil’s advocate often. I give him opportunities to make mistakes and learn from them. I don’t ask him to do anything I can’t do. I hold him accountable to his word. I give him consequences when he shows “less than honorable” intentions. I offer him rewards when he makes unselfish decisions. I CHALLENGE him. I encourage him to take a leadership role in HIS life… So far (knock on wood), he has chosen excellence… I merely facilitate his choices and ideas and then get the hell out of the way. At the same time, I am BRUTALLY honest with him and don’t sugar coat anything when he screws up, and when he does, we BOTH find a way to never make that mistake again. He understands that the concept of “failure” is NOT linked to who he is as young man.

It all starts with good communication and trusting in your child’s inherent greatness.

That’s how I choose to parent. It takes a lot of effort in the beginning, but it is worth it, IMHO. Also, you kinda need to have your own shit together, because kids are smart and they WILL call you on it! LOL

My .02

[quote]Vinnie85 wrote:
this way of raising your kids have created a sheltered society in china… lots of kids don’t know how to deal with their emotions and pressure of the real world… when they used to disappoint their parents they might get a beating or two but they knew how to do deal with it… in the real world their boss doesn’t hit them…

a few months back there was the employee for foxconn(?), they manufactured iphone parts, that lost one of the prototype iphones and he ended up committing suicide… they are saying that this upbringing does not give the child time to deal with his own emotions and learn how to cope…
[/quote]

(I know I’m basing most of my knowledge on china specifically… on a single trip to china… but it was a fairly long trip through several cities and places… and at least for cities I’m sure my “findings” are statistically relevant. The rural areas are most likely completely different but they also don’t abide by the same laws… they pop out kids like crazy :P)

Only thing I wanted to respond too is that you’re referencing a sweat shop worker and their ability to cope with emotions… hell if you put me in that situation for a few years i’d go crazy too.

I still don’t see how strict parenting prevents a kid from developing social skills… Sense we’re basically focusing solely on china… Every kid at that school that talked to me… most of them initiating conversation… were very well versed and respectful… weren’t stressed… different society different culture.

In the end thats what I think makes the difference… to us… it may seem ridiculous because its not a cultural norm… to them its there every day life and it doesn’t even phase them… they still have there time with friends at school etc… when they’re not working. Parents were in the same boat… being raised in iran… different culture different cultural norms. Thats why I think they were so successful coming here.

Depressing part is as much as I try I don’t think i’ll know the meaning of hard work like them… its just on a whole different level in other countries.

I still hold true to the fact that if you look at any immigrants… even the ones that don’t need to work hard… more times then not they will be the harder worker and more dedicated worker.

Sidenote: on our visit we went to a place that makes instruments… they sponsored our trip… absolutely a sweat shop… and we were walking through watching them… I’ve never seen conditions that bad and people in that bad of shape health wise… and I’ve seen some britty shitty places around the world… they were selective about the building they took us in as well. Our jazz band performed for a couple hundred of them when we were leaving(the company was taking pictures for publicity etc… only reason they got time off) and you could clearly see it on their face that they were happy to get that 15-20 min break… Words can not describe the conditions… and foxconn is popular for having 30+ hour shifts… thats going to make anyone go crazy.

Seeing some other posts… the reason I think in this country maybe you see these runaways etc… is because that parenting style isn’t the cultural norm… when a kid sees another kid getting Bs and playing video games for hours etc… that changes his/her perception real quick.

I still think it all comes down to culture in the end… what does America value… what do other countries value. Your environment determines the type of person you’ll be in the end… and if you’re teaching in a “Chinese environment” then they go off into the “american” environment you could mix and match any countries… The kid is most likely to go for the easier route and they’ll also attempt to lead similar lives to their peers… is just wired in our brains.

You just have to adapt whatever parenting style you prefer to the country you’re living in :P…

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
How to motivate our children to succeed… There are pretty much two ways to COERCE anyone, the carrot and the stick, but MOTIVATION comes from within. The “chinese” way, is primarily “the stick” (you BETTER get A’s or ELSE), while the “american” way is typically the carrot (if you get on the honor roll, I’ll buy you a play station). Neither is INTRINSICALLY motivating the child.
[/quote]

Its not as much as you better get an A or else… its why the fuck didn’t you get an A when you’re clearly capable… or the kid shortchanging themselves because they think they’re a special little flower.

As far as do something and get a reward… I will never agree with that… but I also never had an allowance and I worked at my dads shop for free(and this wasn’t because the told me but because I offered) its my responsibility as a member of the family…

Iono the idea of giving a kid a cookie for doing something is hard for me to grasp. Getting some money or a gadget shouldn’t even be on there mind… they should do it because they want to better themselves.

I don’t think the purely american way or progressive etc… not sure what to call… is good. But I also don’t think the “Chinese” way is ideal unless you’re in china… I’d say like a 70/30 blend is the best :stuck_out_tongue:

also I apologize for all these posts… I’m seriously bored out of my mind and mostly thinking out loud… or in text

I got through two screens of text before I had to stop.

I can only imagine that if China were filled with mothers like this, it’d be more successful.

I’m waiting for Nards’ (or Xiaonio’s) reply on this…

I’ve noticed a tendency for Chinese to sacrifice their children to the “God” of education, as if a Master’s degree were the singular purpose of life. IMO, this is an empty pursuit. Leads to terrible depression and frustration when it doesn’t get them rich and famous. Years ago, Deng Xioaping proclaimed “To be rich is glorious” and a billion little lemmings ran off to do just that. All in the EXACT same manner.

Most Chinese education is basically memorization and imitation; there’s not a lot of room for, or encouragement of, creative and independent thought. I mean, think of all those Chinese(or asian) piano and violin virtuosos out there: Who is the world-famous Chinese composer? Where are the original compositions? Where are the groundbreaking new ideas? They sure can play some Mozart or Brahms, though. And why only violin and piano? Because no one ever got rich or famous in Asia playing anything else (*maybe Yo-yo Ma).

Disclaimer: That was a blanket statement; I know someone will list exceptions to everything I said. I am not Chinese but I do speak Mandarin, so I know just a little bit of what I’m talking about. For me Chinese culture is a love/hate kinda thing.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
How to motivate our children to succeed… There are pretty much two ways to COERCE anyone, the carrot and the stick, but MOTIVATION comes from within. The “chinese” way, is primarily “the stick” (you BETTER get A’s or ELSE), while the “american” way is typically the carrot (if you get on the honor roll, I’ll buy you a play station). Neither is INTRINSICALLY motivating the child.

I think that neither way is very productive or contributes to a child’s independence, identity or self worth. The “chinese way” tends to stifle creativity and relies on rote memorization, repetition, and hours practicing a given subject in a rather “dogmatic” way - brutal, yet effective. The consequence being that if there is a below par student, then all kinds of unpleasant things can go wrong. On the flip side, the “american way” (at least as has been popular for the last 30 years or so) is leaving SO much potential on the table, it’s almost criminal. These “american” kids get away with all kinds of behavior and laziness that would be dealt with swiftly and severely in a “non-american” household. And the test results are showing the ineffectiveness of this way of “coddling” kids and worrying about their self esteem to point where they hand out trophies to the LOSERS at kids intramural sports. That’s just fucking ridiculous. If I had to choose between the two, I would say that the “chinese way” produces more consistent results of “moderate success” (good grades, good college, good job). The “american way” is simply… mediocre.

Fortunately there are plenty of different options, and NOT just the “american” or “chinese” way. My eldest son is an honor roll student, plays several instruments, plays sports (was soccer, but now he wants to learn football), will have his eagle scout rank in about a year, won the chess tournament at his school and is a active member in the chess club, was on a rubics cube team that placed FIFTH in the nation and he actually won money earlier this year, last week just received a presidential award for volunteer service - I could keep going… and I don’t MAKE him do anything!

I lead from the front - by example. I talk to him about what he wants in life. I ask him questions about what he THINKS. I offer alternatives to his ideas. I play devil’s advocate often. I give him opportunities to make mistakes and learn from them. I don’t ask him to do anything I can’t do. I hold him accountable to his word. I give him consequences when he shows “less than honorable” intentions. I offer him rewards when he makes unselfish decisions. I CHALLENGE him. I encourage him to take a leadership role in HIS life… So far (knock on wood), he has chosen excellence… I merely facilitate his choices and ideas and then get the hell out of the way. At the same time, I am BRUTALLY honest with him and don’t sugar coat anything when he screws up, and when he does, we BOTH find a way to never make that mistake again. He understands that the concept of “failure” is NOT linked to who he is as young man.

It all starts with good communication and trusting in your child’s inherent greatness.

That’s how I choose to parent. It takes a lot of effort in the beginning, but it is worth it, IMHO. Also, you kinda need to have your own shit together, because kids are smart and they WILL call you on it! LOL

My .02[/quote]

Best post yet

I thought this thread was gonna be about some kinda Cougar-MILF that has transcended from ‘Cougar’ status to ‘Tiger’ status.

I am dissappoint.

I haven’t read the thread…but I was talking about this article on another forum.

Interesting ideas. Overall, I think it’s good to be “strict” with your kids. That being said, I don’t think I’ll use this woman’s “type” of strictness with my crosses fingers soon to be coming little ones.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

It all starts with good communication and trusting in your child’s inherent greatness.

[/quote]

That’s all you had to write AC. LOL

[/thread]

[quote]ethanwest wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]ethanwest wrote:
My girlfriend is Chinese, and was raised in Asia by very controlling parents. She got straight A’s and went to Carnegie Melon university and graduated with a double master in computer science and statistics. She had a pretty good job.

I’m American. I dropped out of college. I started a company. I hired her recently and I pay her salary now.[/quote]

Be sure to tell that story if you ever meet her folks.[/quote]

We’ve been dating for 5 years. Her parents hate me with every bone in their body. It’s a good time.[/quote]

If you really want to make them mad, get engaged.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Also, you kinda need to have your own shit together, because kids are smart and they WILL call you on it! LOL

My .02[/quote]

AC, all of what you said was excellent but I wanted to bring stress to this last part. I think one reason the “American” style has had such less than stellar results is parents not preparing themselves to be parents. If the child see adults unable to control themselves it should be no wonder that the kids may not be able to.

I think parents too often underestimate the intelligence of their children.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2043298,00.html

Interesting take on this debate. Describes American parents as “Choppers”, i.e. helicopter parents.

“But it is the differences between the Tigers and the Choppers that help explain the furor Chua has caused, at least in the U.S. Tigers fixate on success, defined as achievement in precision-oriented fields like music and math; Choppers are obsessed with failure and preventing it at all costs. Tigers operate in a culture of discipline; Choppers, in a culture of fear. Tigers view children as tough, able to take the abuse; Choppers view them as precious, to be raised under glass. Their fury at a bad grade is more likely to land on the teacher than on the child.”

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2043298,00.html

Interesting take on this debate. Describes American parents as “Choppers”, i.e. helicopter parents.

“But it is the differences between the Tigers and the Choppers that help explain the furor Chua has caused, at least in the U.S. Tigers fixate on success, defined as achievement in precision-oriented fields like music and math; Choppers are obsessed with failure and preventing it at all costs. Tigers operate in a culture of discipline; Choppers, in a culture of fear. Tigers view children as tough, able to take the abuse; Choppers view them as precious, to be raised under glass. Their fury at a bad grade is more likely to land on the teacher than on the child.”
[/quote]

That article makes alot of sense. Many of my college friends are teachers and I’ve heard stories of how Asian parents would drag their kids by the ears out of meetings after they found out they got a B in something. American parents on the other hand seem to think their perfect little angels either 1. deserve better and blame the teacher or 2. are totally happy raising an underachiever.

I was brought up in a pretty strict Indian house in MA. But getting my ass beat for not doing well or for doing stupid shit I shouldn’t be has worked out damn well for me. I did excellent in school, played lacrosse, graduated top of my class in hs, went to and graduated from a top 20 university, and now I’m a 3rd year med student. I’m also not socially handicapped for the “ordeal” because I have many friends and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

Most of my classmates from hs, from upper class white families, are unemployed, in shitty bands that play in their parent’s basements, have multiple kids, and still live at home. I think the Tiger method worked pretty damn well and in all honesty, that’s exactly how I would raise my kids in the future.

I was raised using the spartan method

Tiger children would crumble in my pressence…

I think the thing that gets me the most is that the tiger mom’s daughters were never allowed to have fun. No playdates? WTF? Even kids need to decompress, especially after being pushed so hard! Your brain needs a break every now and then.

My father was raised by parents who couldn’t have cared less about anything. He received bad grades in everything but band. He flunked out of U of Illinois. He decided he would parent his children (me) differently. He was very proud of me when I got good grades, especially starting in 4th grade when I started getting As and Bs consistently. However, the only thing I remember him saying is about my grades when I got straight As (one was an A-, but still an A) for the only time in 8th grade. He said: They could at least have been A+'s… :\ Made me feel like shit. Made me think “WTF? I get straight As for the first time and that’s what you say?” After that, I didn’t care anymore. Did no homework or at least the bare minimum. Thank goodness I test well and write excellent papers, otherwise I probably would have failed high school.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I lead from the front - by example. [/quote]

Yep! Exactly.