Also, I could see if they went way left and cast a whole multi-racial cast…but they didn’t. It’s one freaking black guy in a sea of white people in this movie yet it is causing this much emotion? Yeah, if they wanted to stay true to the Norse Myths, then all characters should probably be white…but this is not based on the Norse Myth. Thor was never part of the freaking Avengers in the Norse Myth.
I said it was irksome, not that I was going to go burn crosses over it or something like that. Is finding it irksome THAT unreasonable?
Besides, I never said anything either way about Loki. This doesn’t automatically mean I’m okay with it as you seem to think. I was just trying to stay on topic. If you want to talk about Loki, fine, but after I’m done discussing the character change already under way.
I get that’s it’s a Marvel adaptation of Nordic gods, then again, it’s a Marvel adaptation of NORDIC gods. Do you find it unreasonable for Nordic gods to be Nordic (at least in appearance)? I get that it’s just one guy, but then again that’s what makes it so strange. ONE black god amongst a “sea of white people”? Why? To show that they can freely change their appearance? Just one? I’m sure you can see why this doesn’t follow.
In what way is it more of reach to assume this is a controversy ploy than to assume some pointless sub text of this god changing his appearance off screen and before the events of the movie just because he can?
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
I said it was irksome, not that I was going to go burn crosses over it or something like that. Is finding it irksome THAT unreasonable?
Besides, I never said anything either way about Loki. This doesn’t automatically mean I’m okay with it as you seem to think. I was just trying to stay on topic. If you want to talk about Loki, fine, but after I’m done discussing the character change already under way.
I get that’s it’s a Marvel adaptation of Nordic gods, then again, it’s a Marvel adaptation of NORDIC gods. Do you find it unreasonable for Nordic gods to be Nordic (at least in appearance)? I get that it’s just one guy, but then again that’s what makes it so strange. ONE black god amongst a “sea of white people”? Why? To show that they can freely change their appearance? Just one? I’m sure you can see why this doesn’t follow.
In what way is it more of reach to assume this is a controversy ploy than to assume some pointless sub text of this god changing his appearance off screen and before the events of the movie just because he can?
[/quote]
Like I wrote before, one white family in a sea of Eskimos in that Last Airbender movie.
I remember people raising hell over Nick Fury being played by Sam L…yet what they didn’t know was that Marvel had written that character as a black man BEFORE Samuel L. Jackson was even a thought.
I just do not see tyhe big issue here because this is a MINOR character. They didn’t cast a black man as Thor himself and the people telling these stories shape the characters after themselves. This is not a Nordic society we live in and the Avengers is happening NOW, not in ancient Norse times.
I am asking why a NORSE GOD would avoid being a black man if they can be whatever the hell they want?
If Loki can just become a woman for good, you are saying the rest vowed to be white forever?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
I said it was irksome, not that I was going to go burn crosses over it or something like that. Is finding it irksome THAT unreasonable?
Besides, I never said anything either way about Loki. This doesn’t automatically mean I’m okay with it as you seem to think. I was just trying to stay on topic. If you want to talk about Loki, fine, but after I’m done discussing the character change already under way.
I get that’s it’s a Marvel adaptation of Nordic gods, then again, it’s a Marvel adaptation of NORDIC gods. Do you find it unreasonable for Nordic gods to be Nordic (at least in appearance)? I get that it’s just one guy, but then again that’s what makes it so strange. ONE black god amongst a “sea of white people”? Why? To show that they can freely change their appearance? Just one? I’m sure you can see why this doesn’t follow.
In what way is it more of reach to assume this is a controversy ploy than to assume some pointless sub text of this god changing his appearance off screen and before the events of the movie just because he can?
[/quote]
Like I wrote before, one white family in a sea of Eskimos in that Last Airbender movie.
I remember people raising hell over Nick Fury being played by Sam L…yet what they didn’t know was that Marvel had written that character as a black man BEFORE Samuel L. Jackson was even a thought.
I just do not see tyhe big issue here because this is a MINOR character. They didn’t cast a black man as Thor himself and the people telling these stories shape the characters after themselves. This is not a Nordic society we live in and the Avengers is happening NOW, not in ancient Norse times.
I am asking why a NORSE GOD would avoid being a black man if they can be whatever the hell they want?
If Loki can just become a woman for good, you are saying the rest vowed to be white forever?[/quote]
Imagine if Loki had become a black woman.
[quote]Kristoff wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
http://anyguey.guanabee.com/2010/12/white-supremacists-boycott-thor/
It would seem only a certain kind of person is pissed about this…especially since this was not a premier character that most even know about.[/quote]
Your right, the type of person with the knowledge of Norse Mythology, the history of the scandinavian people… Not redneck racist hicks as you are seemingly trying to hint.
Altho it does make sense why Heimdall was the norse god chosen to be played by a black actor because he has the sight to the nine worlds and in the comic books his face is rarely seen above his nose, and when he looks for something his eyes turn to stars and his face blackens into space, but his long red haired goatee and fair skinned chin are always present.
How would you feel if the african gods were played by white people? or if your a fan of comic books, what would you think if I played Black Panther or Blade. More than anything it just doesn’t make sense.
[/quote]
What African Gods? This movie is not a history lesson. Did I miss Robert Downey Jr being a major factor in my history books? Shit, now that I think of it, I didn’t read anything about the Hulk hanging with Vikings either.
they already make many black characters white (or at least they did)…like the Spawn movie where Al’s best friend in the comics is black but played by a white guy in the movie. I don’t remember boycotts then either.
This country seems to have quite a long history of shit like that…but it appears that it can’t take what it gives.
To be honest, the casting of The Last Airbender bugged me much more than this does. Though, that’s probably just because I like the show Avatar more than I do the Thor comics. My statement before about Jakarra wasn’t ad hoc, racial changes on any character defined by their heritage bothers me.
I don’t know why you’re bringing up Fury. I’ve already stated that I don’t care about playing with the race of characters not defined by their heritage as Jakarra and Heimdall are.
Again, I said I was IRKED. Perhaps to you this word carries different weight, but to me this is a rather minor form of disapproval perfectly suited for a minor character. Also, I don’t see what relevance it is what the era is as these Nordic gods are immortal.
Though, I see what you mean, it’s present day, so why not change into whatever race you want? Great, but that comes with the problems I’ve listed earlier. Why does only one god do this? Why does he only change once? Off screen? AND before the events of the movie take place? This seems MUCH less likely of an explanation than this being a controversy ploy, or even that they just really loved Elba for the part.
Just to be clear, I would prefer if Loki stayed the way he was. But this isn’t really comparable. Loki’s sex change was explicitly explained and had relevance to the story. Besides, I’m pretty sure in the old myths Loki COULD take the form of a woman. Also, taking issue with race and not sex, while peculiar, is not hypocritical. Sex and race are two different qualities of a character and are not dependent on each other. It would be hypocritical of me to be okay with the Airbender changes, but since I’m not this is a moot point. Besides, it looks like Loki is going to be man in the movie anyway. >>New 'Thor' Image: Thor, Odin & Loki (Plus Mjolnir)
Now let me ask you, would you not be irked if they made a Black Panther movie and randomly changed Jakarra into a white guy? Especially if the contextual reason was left up in the air as is the case with Heimdall?
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Now let me ask you, would you not be irked if they made a Black Panther movie and randomly changed Jakarra into a white guy? Especially if the contextual reason was left up in the air as is the case with Heimdall?[/quote]
That is not the same at all. The Black Panther is HUMAN and his race has everything to do with his character and his character’s motivation. If the Black Panther were not black, none of the shit that happens in that story line could stay the same.
How does race hold the same weight in Norse Mythology? Does Thor act in a certain way BECAUSE he is white?
Also, The Black Panther was created by Stan Lee in response to the LACK of black well written characters because of the utter dominance of all media by white characters during that time period. His Race is why he exists in the first place.
This is NOT the same in that arena at all.
Note: I was talking about Jakarra, NOT T’Challa. Seeing as Jakarra is only his half-brother, they could make his character white and I could come up with some BS explination like “his other parent was white” even though there would be no contextual reason to assume this, just as four60 has done by assuming Heimdall is making some arbitrary racial fashion statement.
Again you misunderstand. My problem isn’t with Heimdall being black, as though being black changes his characters personality. By problem isn’t so ad hoc. I take issue with messing with the race of characters defined by their heritage. Don’t you???
It doesn’t matter one bit if the Black Panther was created over black outcry or if Thor was created over Scandinavian outcry, my point is that they are characters defined by their heritage and I take issue with arbitrarily changing this.
So yes, they are very much in the same arena, given that Jakarra =/= Black Panther…
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Note: I was talking about Jakarra, NOT T’Challa. Seeing as Jakarra is only his half-brother, they could make his character white and I could come up with some BS explination like “his other parent was white” even though there would be no contextual reason to assume this, just as four60 has done by assuming Heimdall is making some arbitrary racial fashion statement. [/quote]
…and that wouldn’t phase me at all if they did. the Black Panther has to remain the way he is because his entire reason for being is based on the times in which he was created. To ignore that would be erasing his “historic” value and ignoring the acts of this country that led to his creation.
There are other white characters in the Black Panther like the White Wolf. I see no reason why one day in some future version of a movie about BP that Jakarra would have to be black.
I don’t see the significance here. They didn’t change the main character and it isn’t like the creation of these characters was based on being a backlash to racial discrimination.
This isn’t a movie about the history of Norse people and like was written in that link I posted, none of the other actors are from there either yet no one cares just because they are “white”?
That would be like playing The Black Panther as some average black kid from the Bronx.
You are ok with them simply being “white” but claim the issue is with their historic heritage. That makes little sense seeing as none of these other people are Norwegian or even look like it aside from some hair bleaching on Thor.
Why are you explaining this to me? I already know this, that’s why I was talking about Jakarra and not T’Challa.
If that truly wouldn’t phase you then fine, you’re more forgiving than I am (keep in mind this situation assumes no explanation was given for Jakara’s race change), but don’t act like it’s unreasonable to prefer continuity. Heimdall could be a purple and yellow fucking dragon for all I care so long as it has some relevance to the story. Hell, if there were at least a contextual explanation for the change I could get behind it.
Like I’ve already said, if the movie goes on to explain that Heimdall is black just because he’s a god and gets his kicks that way I’d be fine with it. It would obviously be an ex post facto explanation, but whatever.
That’s not my argument at all. You’re all too often ignoring the point of what I’m saying and I’m starting to think it’s intentional.
My point is one of continuity. If you’re going to make a fundamental change about a character, then at least offer some explanation. Wouldn’t Loki’s sex change seem strange if there was no explanation in the comics?
Given that there is no contextual explanation, this is either a ploy for controversy or Elba is just really good at playing Heimdall…
[quote]I don’t see the significance here. They didn’t change the main character and it isn’t like the creation of these characters was based on being a backlash to racial discrimination.
This isn’t a movie about the history of Norse people and like was written in that link I posted, none of the other actors are from there either yet no one cares just because they are “white”?
That would be like playing The Black Panther as some average black kid from the Bronx.
You are ok with them simply being “white” but claim the issue is with their historic heritage. That makes little sense seeing as none of these other people are Norwegian or even look like it aside from some hair bleaching on Thor.[/quote]
This is a problem of idealism vs. realism. Idealistically, these characters would be played by Nordic men, but realistically the actors they chose have greater pull and are about as close as you can get to Nordic without resorting to hiring a bunch of no-name actors.
On the flip side, it isn’t idealistic OR realistic to make such an arbitrary change as having one black Nordic god. So I say it is most likely a ploy and as of right now my argument backing this conclusion follows better than the arbitrary-race-change-by-one-god-off-screen-before-the-events-of-the-movie explanation.
Who knows, maybe they have a really damn good reason in the movie for why he’s black, but I doubt it given the interviews Elba has already had… =/
Heimdall is basically the bouncer of Asgard’s Night Club.
so he will probably be an useless character with a few comical replies.
no wonder they have chosen a black actor to play him.
the real question is : why a white Gimli ? a black one would have been way more hollywoodian.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
They can complain about Idris Alba, but people can always complain about white people playing characters that don’t fit them at all. Best example off the top of my head would be Cleopatra.
So for those who hate, they can eat a dick. This movie will be great no matter what.[/quote]
They STILL portray that character as a white woman but I don’t remember any protests or boycotts.[/quote]
Cleopatras family was Greek.
[quote]four60 wrote:
^I could see the beef if it was a historical person or even a mythical human character who is white or black or whatever but this is a god, who are free to take on whatever shape or form they please. Gods are not bound by race shape or form. It’s the person that is telling the story that adds all of that. And this story teller did it his way. I’m not sure why it bugs ^so many? [/quote]
I dont think you have the right idea of what a Norse god is, they are not all powerful and do not have the ability to change whatever they please. They are more of a race, born from a mother. They can die, and they do bleed. So what you are saying above would be the same as my norwegian parents giving birth to me, then me just deciding to be black and it happening… that doesn’t work.
[quote]Kristoff wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
^I could see the beef if it was a historical person or even a mythical human character who is white or black or whatever but this is a god, who are free to take on whatever shape or form they please. Gods are not bound by race shape or form. It’s the person that is telling the story that adds all of that. And this story teller did it his way. I’m not sure why it bugs ^so many? [/quote]
I dont think you have the right idea of what a Norse god is, they are not all powerful and do not have the ability to change whatever they please. They are more of a race, born from a mother. They can die, and they do bleed. So what you are saying above would be the same as my norwegian parents giving birth to me, then me just deciding to be black and it happening… that doesn’t work. [/quote]
No I do understand your point. But these are not the same Mythological Norse gods. These are Marvels version. There power differ, remember Thor never had an alter ego but he does in the comic, his brother changes form at will, like what was said before his recent transformation is into a hot god chick.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
They can complain about Idris Alba, but people can always complain about white people playing characters that don’t fit them at all. Best example off the top of my head would be Cleopatra.
So for those who hate, they can eat a dick. This movie will be great no matter what.[/quote]
They STILL portray that character as a white woman but I don’t remember any protests or boycotts.[/quote]
Cleopatras family was Greek.
[/quote]
And African. Still wouldn’t have Liz Taylor’s complexion.
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
They can complain about Idris Alba, but people can always complain about white people playing characters that don’t fit them at all. Best example off the top of my head would be Cleopatra.
So for those who hate, they can eat a dick. This movie will be great no matter what.[/quote]
They STILL portray that character as a white woman but I don’t remember any protests or boycotts.[/quote]
Cleopatras family was Greek.
[/quote]
And African. Still wouldn’t have Liz Taylor’s complexion.[/quote]
If by African you mean Greek, I agree.
Now if you want to go into the details of how white people really look like and what the differences are in term of adaptations to Europes diverse geography and climate, fine, but that would probably mean overdoing it.
And Norse gods are white, sorry.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
They can complain about Idris Alba, but people can always complain about white people playing characters that don’t fit them at all. Best example off the top of my head would be Cleopatra.
So for those who hate, they can eat a dick. This movie will be great no matter what.[/quote]
They STILL portray that character as a white woman but I don’t remember any protests or boycotts.[/quote]
Cleopatras family was Greek.
[/quote]
And African. Still wouldn’t have Liz Taylor’s complexion.[/quote]
If by African you mean Greek, I agree.
Now if you want to go into the details of how white people really look like and what the differences are in term of adaptations to Europes diverse geography and climate, fine, but that would probably mean overdoing it.
And Norse gods are white, sorry.
[/quote]
Actually, I was thinking of Septimius Severus.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Note: I was talking about Jakarra, NOT T’Challa. Seeing as Jakarra is only his half-brother, they could make his character white and I could come up with some BS explination like “his other parent was white” even though there would be no contextual reason to assume this, just as four60 has done by assuming Heimdall is making some arbitrary racial fashion statement.
Again you misunderstand. My problem isn’t with Heimdall being black, as though being black changes his characters personality. By problem isn’t so ad hoc. I take issue with messing with the race of characters defined by their heritage. Don’t you???
It doesn’t matter one bit if the Black Panther was created over black outcry or if Thor was created over Scandinavian outcry, my point is that they are characters defined by their heritage and I take issue with arbitrarily changing this.
So yes, they are very much in the same arena, given that Jakarra =/= Black Panther…
[/quote]
Ok, you seem to have placed wayyyyyyyyyyyy to much thought into this. So much thought that you look pass the fact you are talking about comic characters.
There is a Hercules who is walking around chilling with a asian kid in the comic books (according to scriptures he died). The god greek god of war just had his guts ripped out and splatted like a bug by a insane comic book character Aries not a minor god in any sense.
However your coming across as saying that race is the only issue that must not change. The god we are talking about was known as a god that enjoyed wondering around the earth. If he is wondering thru now in modern day NY why not pic a dif race. You want a drawn out explanation as to why is this. I’m saying its such a small thing for a Marvel Comicbook god to do that why should he explain at all.
And the guy had 9 mothers damn he could be anything he wants (Heimdal, why are you black", “whats it to you…wandering china next”)
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
They can complain about Idris Alba, but people can always complain about white people playing characters that don’t fit them at all. Best example off the top of my head would be Cleopatra.
So for those who hate, they can eat a dick. This movie will be great no matter what.[/quote]
They STILL portray that character as a white woman but I don’t remember any protests or boycotts.[/quote]
Cleopatras family was Greek.
[/quote]
And African. Still wouldn’t have Liz Taylor’s complexion.[/quote]
If by African you mean Greek, I agree.
Now if you want to go into the details of how white people really look like and what the differences are in term of adaptations to Europes diverse geography and climate, fine, but that would probably mean overdoing it.
And Norse gods are white, sorry.
[/quote]
Norse gods are gods
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Kristoff wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
http://anyguey.guanabee.com/2010/12/white-supremacists-boycott-thor/
It would seem only a certain kind of person is pissed about this…especially since this was not a premier character that most even know about.[/quote]
Your right, the type of person with the knowledge of Norse Mythology, the history of the scandinavian people… Not redneck racist hicks as you are seemingly trying to hint.
Altho it does make sense why Heimdall was the norse god chosen to be played by a black actor because he has the sight to the nine worlds and in the comic books his face is rarely seen above his nose, and when he looks for something his eyes turn to stars and his face blackens into space, but his long red haired goatee and fair skinned chin are always present.
How would you feel if the african gods were played by white people? or if your a fan of comic books, what would you think if I played Black Panther or Blade. More than anything it just doesn’t make sense.
[/quote]
What African Gods? This movie is not a history lesson. Did I miss Robert Downey Jr being a major factor in my history books? Shit, now that I think of it, I didn’t read anything about the Hulk hanging with Vikings either.
they already make many black characters white (or at least they did)…like the Spawn movie where Al’s best friend in the comics is black but played by a white guy in the movie. I don’t remember boycotts then either.
This country seems to have quite a long history of shit like that…but it appears that it can’t take what it gives.[/quote]
African gods:
And not everyone is from “this country” and just because your country has a history with racism and segregation towards African people that doesn’t mean that my country’s historical stories should be altered.
And yea, It is a partial history lesson. Its scandinavian gods put into comic book form, In the same way that 300 was a historical based graphic novel. Would it make sense to make Theron played by anyone who didn’t look greek? just because he is not a “main” character.
It is history, turned comic, turned movie. In history he was a north man, in the comic he was a north man, and in the movie he is a black man. it just doesn’t make sense.
And if you want to bring other changes into play like the fact that Loki was turned into a woman for a while in the comic books lets talk about that. First off Loki is the god of mischief and trickery. In history he was just that, he was not an “enemy” of Thor but he sure did cause alot of trouble for his fellow Asgardians. In the comic books it made sense that he was turned into a villain, envious of his half brother Thor. His only weapons being sorcery, deception, and lies. In the comic books, After the Ragnarok all the gods were destroyed and one by one brought back by Thor himself finding them in the hearts of man, Loki came back as a woman. Convincing Thor that he had changed so much to the point in which he was no longer an enemy or threat. Thor was deceived (get it, Loki is the god of mischief and trickery, he tricked Thor) into believing this, after all he had even changed in physical appearance… Yada yada yada Loki gets Thor to a point of weakness, admits his diabolical plan, and turns into his true form, a man. God of mischief, that made sense.