FYI:
I seen a article on one of these sites about a bunch of cops getting busted because they were buying gear off the street. It was the hole squad or something like that.
Damn Bush, your a witty MF!
Agree with Mr. Bear. I’m tired of hearing about this cheating bullshit. I could care less about the guy next to me pushing 450, 20 times on the bench. You see guys all the time that come in the gym, stand around talking about other poeple and bull shit, do a couple of curls then leave and do the same thing for 5 days.
I don’t go to the gym to bullshit around. I ordered a shirt from Animal (animal pak) that says “I didn’t come hear to talk” and “shut up and train”. I am an engineer by trade and during the day I have to be somewhat of a professional. People ask me at work why do you lift and why do you take this and that and lift so heavy? This is how I respond:
It is my journey to myself. Some do not under stand. I put on my head phones, crank up some heavy metal, and enter a different fucking world. I like it a lot. I like the way it makes me feel. Just me and my goal for that day. Nobody elses bullshit. Sweat dripping off off my frame in big beads. Can you say in a zone, or on a different level? Hell, I don’t even know others are there when I am in that zone. And best of all: it is mine and no body can take it from me! It is my “quality time”!
One question for anyone that is out there and please respond: Just who the fuck am I cheating?
JW
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Wolfen wrote:
mikekatz wrote:
While I agree that educated guys such as the members of this board are responsible enough to take anabolics, the majority of prospective juicers are not…this sucks for us, but ultimately will prevent the avg. joe who’s wanting to get huuuuuuge overnight from walking into a supp store and downing a handful of dianabol as if it were skittles.
MK
Just curious, in countries where steroids are legal do they have a lot of reported cases of people abusing them?
I would say no…Alcohol is a perfect example of something that is illegal in the u.s. for people under 21, wheras
most countries in europe allow teens to drink without question and don’t have the kind of numbers that the u.s. does with regards to alcohol related deaths…Kind of peculiar don’t you think.
MK
[/quote]
Yeah, but it’s a little different. People don’t use alcohol expecting it to be performance enhancing and/or to improve body composition. But this the express reason people, including young adolescent athletes who are ill-informed as to proper use, use steroids. And this abuse it what occurs with them being legal. I’m not sure whether or how much worse it would be if they were legal. But I suspect the abuse very well might be worse.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
yeah, but i dont care about cheating. life’s not fair, and those who’re good enough to get away with being unfair (like life) deserve it.
[/quote]
Agreed. And those who do get caught should be stripped of all honors and recognition. Too bad that it’s not fair that some of their success is legitimately due to very hard work. Life is not fair.
[quote]CS wrote:
we will probably never see eye to eye on this subject than because i do think that steroids is cheating. i do. regardless of who, what, where, or why. i’m not saying that it’s the worst thing that someone could do or anything like that but it’s still cheating. yah you are probably making better progress that most of the guys in your gym who aren’t using but you are using an illegal substance. plain and simple. you are using something that is not available for everyone to use because everyone is not willing to take the health and legal risks you are. It’s not like they are available at GNC where everyone can get access to them.
[/quote]
This I could care less about. There’s no competition so there’s not cheating. What I do in the gym and the kitchen has nothing to do with the next guy and what he does has nothing to do with me. Any perception on the part of other otherwise is just that, a perception. Some people may choose to compare themselves to others but it’s not valid when the other parties are completely ignorant of the comparison.
[quote]CS wrote:
people probably accuse you of cheating because you are, in fact, cheating. steroids are an illegal drug that give you an unfair advantage over athletes who choose not to use steroids. .[/quote]
I don’t know about this…I’m not sure it’s a strong or defendable position.
[quote]CS wrote:
bottom line is that steroids are an illegal drug and by you choosing to take them you have an unfair advantage
[/quote]
Actually, lets see what happens logically when we use the “unfair advantage” and “legal” argument you are putting forth…
Firstly, I hold the position that legality has nothing to do with defining something as being an “unfair advantage” because you can certainly do things which are illegal and not satisfy the clause of giving an unfair advantage. You can, for example, drive 100MPH (which is clearly illegal) to a football game you are playing in, and not have an “unfair advantage”. Or if you are under 21, you could break the law by drinking before a baseball game you are playing in, and not have an “unfair advantage.” Clearly, therefore, legality (or lack of) is not sufficient to claim an unfair advantage. SO lets remove that argument from the nexus of conversation.
In addition, just because something is legal, it may still constitute an “unfair advantage”. Consider baseball, where people can gain an unfair advantage for “corking” bats, or if a pitcher puts an illegal substance (oil, or whatever) on a ball to enhance his break on a curveball-pitch. Both are legal- you won’t suffer a penalty or punishment by the government for doing either.
Legality is therefore not Necessary for something to be “fair,” and being illegal is not Sufficient for it to be “unfair,” in this context. SO as you said “by choosing to take them, you have an unfair advantage” I believe you’ve failed to satisfy both necessary as well as sufficient proof for this position.
If you have another position, and I misrepresented yours here, then I’d be more than willing to listen…but as it stands, I don’t think the argument holds water, in present form.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
if i developed a cologne that made women want to fuck me or die trying would i be cheating you out of a dynamite lay when i sprayed myself and walked by your honey? no. i would be one smart motherfucker who figured out how to be higher on the evolutionary chain than you.[/quote]
LOL! I agree, some people will just never get it. In order to succeed in any endeavor, you need to realize what your going up against with an open mind. Take the friggin blinders off, there is NO SUCH THING as a level playing field. ALways has been and never will be, you either except that and try harder or you don’t and cry foul because someone that wanted it more than you just spanked your ass.
I totally agree with ya wufwugy, It’s not wrong unless you get caught. I mean if you can get away with cheating then more power to you. Unless you’re fucking my girl with that cologne. Then it’s fuckin’ on and I would have to take some of your cologne and then we’d have to see who could fuck more bitches, starting with that girl on you avatar. Ha ha
Anyways I don’t think there’s any problem with taking steroids as long as you take the time to know what you’re doing.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Its more following the letter of the law in your sport than saying, “cheating or not”.[/quote]
This is the contractarian position, and is somewhat better than the others presented, although it still isn’t great. You can break a contract and still not be “wrong” or “immoral” or even a simply a cheater who has an unfair advantage.
The rules in the IFBB say that people must not use steroids, however, clearly, 100% of the IFBB professionals disregard that rule. Ergo, they are ignoring the letter of the law in their competition, yet do not have an unfair advantage over anyone else. Hence, I feel that they aren’t cheating.
In addition, you can easily break contracts, and still be a very moral person. Consider the (hypothetical) slave master who sets all of the plantation owners slaves free in the pre-civil-war-south. Clearly he broke his contract with the plantation owner (which was presumably to oversee the slaves, keep them from leaving, ensure efficiency, etc…). And clearly he is not morally wrong, despite breaking the contract.
I thus feel that following the letter of the law in your sport (or keeping a particular contract) is neither necessary nor sufficient to claim an unfair advantage, nor to be labeled a cheater.
I finished a cycle about 2 months ago. When I was in PCT, I took what was left of my test prop, and went to a batting cage.
I went 19-25.
test prop went 0-fer. Never even took the bat off his shoulders.
I’m just sayin.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
CS wrote:
people probably accuse you of cheating because you are, in fact, cheating. steroids are an illegal drug that give you an unfair advantage over athletes who choose not to use steroids. .
I don’t know about this…I’m not sure it’s a strong or defendable position.
CS wrote:
bottom line is that steroids are an illegal drug and by you choosing to take them you have an unfair advantage
Actually, lets see what happens logically when we use the “unfair advantage” and “legal” argument you are putting forth…
Firstly, I hold the position that legality has nothing to do with defining something as being an “unfair advantage” because you can certainly do things which are illegal and not satisfy the clause of giving an unfair advantage. You can, for example, drive 100MPH (which is clearly illegal) to a football game you are playing in, and not have an “unfair advantage”. Or if you are under 21, you could break the law by drinking before a baseball game you are playing in, and not have an “unfair advantage.” Clearly, therefore, legality (or lack of) is not sufficient to claim an unfair advantage. SO lets remove that argument from the nexus of conversation.
In addition, just because something is legal, it may still constitute an “unfair advantage”. Consider baseball, where people can gain an unfair advantage for “corking” bats, or if a pitcher puts an illegal substance (oil, or whatever) on a ball to enhance his break on a curveball-pitch. Both are legal- you won’t suffer a penalty or punishment by the government for doing either.
Legality is therefore not Necessary for something to be “fair,” and being illegal is not Sufficient for it to be “unfair,” in this context. SO as you said “by choosing to take them, you have an unfair advantage” I believe you’ve failed to satisfy both necessary as well as sufficient proof for this position.
Alright. I’m sorry Mr. Roberts but that is a ridiculous argument. To liken using steroids to “speeding to a game” or “drinking before a baseball game” is just dumb. In what way can that give you an unfair advantage? the more i read that the dumber it is. the whole basis for my previous argument was that if steroids weren’t in place the athlete wouldn’t perform the same. i’m pretty sure that a football player skills wouldn’t be magically enhanced by speeding to the game. i’m pretty sure a baseball player would probably play worse if they got sideways before the game.
the second point is somewhat more valid because it agrees with my argument to an extent. this gives the player an unfair advantage that wouldn’t be there if the substance (or whatever) was taken away. it’s still very different than a chemical advantage though and that is reflected in the rules of professional sports. Since you have not presented valid points to dissuade me from my argument i stand by my points. Just because people throw out arguments that make no sense and have nothing valid like “hey dude, life isn’t fair” or “i don’t give a fuck about the guy next to me and what he does” still doesn’t make it right. I realize that life is very unfair. i’m not saying that life is fair. and just because you’re not cheating someone else doesn’t mean you are not cheating yourself. i realize that i sound like i am trying to be high and mighty and i’m really not. i have done many many bad things in my life. i have cheated in my life. but i’ve always been a man aobut it and admitted when i had. even when i didn’t get caught i knew i cheated and i was ready to face that. i’ve said many times in this thread that i’m not trying to bash people who use. i’m not saying that at some point i may not use myself. but if/when i do use i will know that the gains i get are not completely mine because i was using an illegal drug. TO ME that’s cheating myself. i’m not saying that it’s the worst offense ever or i would never be able to live with myself but that would be my truth. To someone else you may not feel like you’re cheating and that’s fine too. to each his own.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I finished a cycle about 2 months ago. When I was in PCT, I took what was left of my test prop, and went to a batting cage.
I went 19-25.
test prop went 0-fer. Never even took the bat off his shoulders.
I’m just sayin. [/quote]
you must not have read through the thread very well. never, not even one time, did i state that steroids made athletes. in fact i was very adament about stating that most of the athletes (or even every day guys) that use steroids still worked very very hard to attain the physique, or strenght, or level they have achieved in whatever their chosen endeavour was.
CS:
You need to define your terms more clearly, if they are to have any substance…
What is the intrinsic problem(s) with using steroids in sports (morally/ethically) which makes a person who does so in some way lacking in some virtue? What is the wrong that is comitted when an athlete uses steroids, and whom is the athlete wronging?
If we can agree that ethics are a set of guidelines which describe what we ought to do and how we ought to live, them perhaps we can pinpoint the eact evil or unethical means/end which is engendered by cheating (and the cheater). I await your definition of the preceeding terms, so we can continue meaningfully towards discovering what makes someone a “cheater” and if thats even morally reprehensible in this modality.
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Wolfen wrote:
mikekatz wrote:
While I agree that educated guys such as the members of this board are responsible enough to take anabolics, the majority of prospective juicers are not…this sucks for us, but ultimately will prevent the avg. joe who’s wanting to get huuuuuuge overnight from walking into a supp store and downing a handful of dianabol as if it were skittles.
MK
Just curious, in countries where steroids are legal do they have a lot of reported cases of people abusing them?
I would say no…Alcohol is a perfect example of something that is illegal in the u.s. for people under 21, wheras
most countries in europe allow teens to drink without question and don’t have the kind of numbers that the u.s. does with regards to alcohol related deaths…Kind of peculiar don’t you think.
MK
[/quote]
That’s a good point Mike. Do you think there might be some correlation between vehicle ownership in the US versus public transportation in most of the other industrialized nations?
Our kids get drunk then try to drive home. European kids, Japanese kids, etc. get drunk then walk home or take the bus or train.
RB
[quote]CS wrote:
i’m gonna have to go ahead and change my stance a little bit and play devil’s advocate. AGAIN, i’m not trying to disrespect anyone because steroids are a personal choice BUT…i can even understand how the average every day lifter who doesn’t compete in anything could feel cheated by someone choosing to take steroids. now i agree that if steroids are taken the right way with the right supervision they can be safe and they cause much less side effects, deaths, and overall problems than alcohol or nicotine BUT they are still an illegal drug that COULD cause horrible side effects.
now say Mr. average every day gym goer is not willing to risk the ramifications taht could come with using steroids but he is the gym workin hard just like you, watching what he eats just like you, trying to do things right just like you, yet you are far bigger, stronger, and more muscular i can see how they could feel cheated. To say that just because you’ve researched it or you know how to use it right or it isn’t any worse than using any other recreational drug or you just don’t care really doesn’t mean shit because it is still an illegal drug and until the powers that be change that you are still getting an unfair advantage.[/quote]
True. But, I’m not competing with him. He may be competing with me, but that’s not my problem or fault.
If you’d like to apply cheating to a real world environment then let’s take the Army. Are cruise missles cheating? Are scoped weapons cheating? How about body armor? All that stuff improves the performance of the military and gives them a significant real world performance advantage over the enemy, yet, no one cmplains. In fact, they condone it and expect more.
In fact, can we discuss the term illegal? My understanding is that Steroids are mostly listed on the DEA’s Schedule III which means that Doctors can’t even prescribe them.
I’m aware that there are countries that allow Doctors to prescribe them, like Germany and France.
What I’d like to know is, are there countries that have laws that allow steroids to be purchased over the counter without a prescription?
RB
[quote]conorh wrote:
CS wrote:
people probably accuse you of cheating because you are, in fact, cheating. steroids are an illegal drug that give you an unfair advantage over athletes who choose not to use steroids. i guess i just don’t see any validity in your argument. TRUE, you still have to work hard to get where you want to be (if you are using steroids) but never the less, you are still using an illegal drug that is giving you an unfair advantage. basically what you’re saying is that just because you still have to lift weights and watch your diet that you are not cheating and that is just ludacris. another point to your argument was that if you use them right and don’t incur any side effects then you aren’t cheating…but you still are. taht really has nothing to do with your argument.
bottom line is that steroids are an illegal drug and by you choosing to take them you have an unfair advantage over those who choose to not use them. i have no problem with people using steroids. you are right in saying that you are an adult and make your own choices but don’t come on here and try to say you’re not cheating by taking them because that is just stupid.
Then why don’t those people who don’t want to jucie join some super stringent organization that keeps the chemistry fair? 'Cause no one cares. Everyone has access to the same drugs, some people choose not to use them and they choose to lose. Otherwise they’d join a different organization.
If anything, I want an all drug organization, the more chemistry the better. Take baseball for example. No one wants to see a bunch of limp dicks making base hits, we want to see monsters smash the ball. Hell, I’d like to see Tiger Woods launch the ball 500 yards.
Of course, that’s a fanciful notion because we all know that drugs alone don’t ensure sports performance. We do know that right?
Oh, and if you’re juicing but not participating in an organization that bans it, you’re not “cheating”. Breaking the law perhaps, but not cheating. If you’re lifting for your physique and you juice who has the right to tell you that’s cheating? Where do you draw the line? How about it’s cheating if you eat more than three meals a day? Or more than 2000 kcals? Why not make it real fair by giving everyone the same ration and forcing them to all perform the same exact exercise regimen?[/quote]
Harrison Bergeron. Read it:
RB