This is What's Wrong With Abortion

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
401

Dang I’d like to read the article, if anyone finds that story then if you could edit the proper URL into the first post or something…

Anyway the question isn’t whether or not it’s ‘human’. Clearly it is, but then so are our skin cells. Human is what we classify as the DNA pattern in the nucleus. Rather the question is whether or not it’s ‘a’ human, that singular indefinite article implying our concept of ‘individual’ or something like that.

It’s about personhood, which is primarily an issue of sentience. This is something to do with the brain, in which is housed the mind/spirit/personality/etc. what people call our thoughts, opinions and memes/memories.

Retrospectively, you’d have people saying ‘oh, I am glad I was not aborted’ but the thing is, we could say that any hypothetical person would say that, including the ones who might be born if all us men went out and raped a church full of nuns. Clearly this isn’t the basis to make choices on. It’s sort of like saying “oh well I’m glad my grandfather did not keep to his oath of celibacy” as justification that priests shouldn’t get married.

I just think in terms of the mind and I wonder how much mind we have at different stages in our development. Obviously it tends to be more as we move along, the trouble is finding a discrete point at which to draw the line. I personally think conception is too early, but I also understand the suspicion that birth might possible be too late. I’d really like it if there were some simple mathematical way to make these decisions. I hope we can some day, like monitor brain wave activity or MRI or something, because it’s a very apprehensive issue.

402

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I was NOT making any kind of reference to your job. My bad if you took it that way. Was I wrong? I called you a liberal because you think I have no reason to say anything about the abortion topic. You are one hundred percent wrong!

Was slavery a clearly defined occupation in the moral code of the times? Sure as fuck NOT! This country went to war over the topic!! The same will be true if need be in regards to abortion. Abortion is ALWAYS wrong!! Murder is murder, no matter what color you draw it with.

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
. . . . from my avatar . . . . pride in my job shithead . . . .[/quote]
[/quote]

So by your standard abortion is murder period no matter what correct? And both the Mother, Father and Doctor would be charged?

403

If anyone wants the abortion for their own personal benefit, then yes they should be charged. Why is someone charged with two murders after killing a pregnant woman?

Say the mother has a risk of loosing her own life if she goes through with the pregnancy, that’s an incredibly difficult challenge. She should not be charged with murder. Yet I do have to say that everyone in this world dies at some point die. No one ever gets to skip out. IMO laying your life down so that another human has a chance at this life is the best thing you can do. The mother has lived already, why not give the child the same opportunities the mother had/s? Pretty honorable in the eyes of this guy ; )

You never mentioned anything about my slavery topic, do you think I’m right or wrong?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
So by your standard abortion is murder period no matter what correct? And both the Mother, Father and Doctor would be charged?[/quote]

404

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If anyone wants the abortion for their own personal benefit, then yes they should be charged. Why is someone charged with two murders after killing a pregnant woman?

Say the mother has a risk of loosing her own life if she goes through with the pregnancy, that’s an incredibly difficult challenge. She should not be charged with murder. Yet I do have to say that everyone in this world dies at some point die. No one ever gets to skip out. IMO laying your life down so that another human has a chance at this life is the best thing you can do. The mother has lived already, why not give the child the same opportunities the mother had/s? Pretty honorable in the eyes of this guy ; )

You never mentioned anything about my slavery topic, do you think I’m right or wrong?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
So by your standard abortion is murder period no matter what correct? And both the Mother, Father and Doctor would be charged?[/quote]
[/quote]

Interesting kneedragger because in another thread you stated, and I quote

“Just like your abortion belief, murder of any child is still murder! There is NO gray area!!”

and I believe you just introduced a gray area didn’t ya?

And your other option is for a child not to have their biological mother??

405

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I was NOT making any kind of reference to your job. My bad if you took it that way. Was I wrong? I called you a liberal because you think I have no reason to say anything about the abortion topic. You are one hundred percent wrong!

Was slavery a clearly defined occupation in the moral code of the times? Sure as fuck NOT! This country went to war over the topic!! The same will be true if need be in regards to abortion. Abortion is ALWAYS wrong!! Murder is murder, no matter what color you draw it with.
[/quote]

Actually you need to do some further reading on the slavery topic before you drop that in here. Because prior to 1780 (I use 1780 because that was when Pennsylvania who was the first, passed legislation for gradual emancipation, giving freedom to unborn children of slaves on their 28th birthday) it was very much accepted in the moral code for every state. Even the founding fathers kept slaves. Now does this make it right? At the time you were thought to elite and upper class if you could afford slaves. And as a matter of fact many former slaves in the North found it harder to survive once they were freed. Due to many doing skilled work that was taken back over by the white majority.

So now that we have had a little diversion back to the topic at hand. Your turn to answer my question and the “gray” area you introduced. Since you state this is a right or wrong issue with no middle ground. Either it’s legal and an abortion can take place, or it’s not and punishble as a crime.

406

Abortion is murder, that will never change. The area you say is gray is not gray, someone will still die. Be it the mother and/or the child.

How many kids are raised by other people other than their mother? People, like the father, can step up and raise the child. I believe if something were to happen like that in my family, people would raise that child in someone’s honor. Yet this is all not even relevant to the topic ; )

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
Interesting kneedragger because in another thread you stated, and I quote

“Just like your abortion belief, murder of any child is still murder! There is NO gray area!!”

and I believe you just introduced a gray area didn’t ya?

And your other option is for a child not to have their biological mother??[/quote]

Where was I wrong about slavery? Just because it was accepted by some people at the time, does not make it an OK thing to do. No matter who owned slaves way back in the late 1700’s, why did slavery still end? Because it is morally wrong. There is a difference between moral and human truths.

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

Actually you need to do some further reading on the slavery topic before you drop that in here. Because prior to 1780 (I use 1780 because that was when Pennsylvania who was the first, passed legislation for gradual emancipation, giving freedom to unborn children of slaves on their 28th birthday) it was very much accepted in the moral code for every state. Even the founding fathers kept slaves. Now does this make it right? At the time you were thought to elite and upper class if you could afford slaves. And as a matter of fact many former slaves in the North found it harder to survive once they were freed. Due to many doing skilled work that was taken back over by the white majority.

So now that we have had a little diversion back to the topic at hand. Your turn to answer my question and the “gray” area you introduced. Since you state this is a right or wrong issue with no middle ground. Either it’s legal and an abortion can take place, or it’s not and punishble as a crime.
[/quote]

407

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Abortion is murder, that will never change. The area you say is gray is not gray, someone will still die. Be it the mother and/or the child.

How many kids are raised by other people other than their mother? People, like the father, can step up and raise the child. I believe if something were to happen like that in my family, people would raise that child in someone’s honor. Yet this is all not even relevant to the topic ; )

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
Interesting kneedragger because in another thread you stated, and I quote

“Just like your abortion belief, murder of any child is still murder! There is NO gray area!!”

and I believe you just introduced a gray area didn’t ya?

And your other option is for a child not to have their biological mother??[/quote]

Where was I wrong about slavery? Just because it was accepted by some people at the time, does not make it an OK thing to do. No matter who owned slaves way back in the late 1700’s, why did slavery still end? Because it is morally wrong. There is a difference between moral and human truths.

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

Actually you need to do some further reading on the slavery topic before you drop that in here. Because prior to 1780 (I use 1780 because that was when Pennsylvania who was the first, passed legislation for gradual emancipation, giving freedom to unborn children of slaves on their 28th birthday) it was very much accepted in the moral code for every state. Even the founding fathers kept slaves. Now does this make it right? At the time you were thought to elite and upper class if you could afford slaves. And as a matter of fact many former slaves in the North found it harder to survive once they were freed. Due to many doing skilled work that was taken back over by the white majority.

So now that we have had a little diversion back to the topic at hand. Your turn to answer my question and the “gray” area you introduced. Since you state this is a right or wrong issue with no middle ground. Either it’s legal and an abortion can take place, or it’s not and punishble as a crime.
[/quote]
[/quote]

So who get’s charged? If an abortion takes place who are you going to punish? I keep going back to this because of your statement that there is no gray area there is either right or wrong.

And the arguement of people stepping up, I believe would apply in many famalies but how many kids are in the foster care system because nobody wants to “step up”? But I agree with you on that being a totally different topic for discussion :wink:

You asked is slavery was part of the morally accepted code, I answered based on history. Do I believe it was wrong? Yes very much so, it directly went against what was stated in the Declaration of Independence.

408

Okay, for the sake of discussion I’m going to grant you that we keep abortion legal in the cases were mother has a possible death or even rape. Will you join me in supporting legal restrictions on abortions done for socioeconomic reasons, that as studies on your side show, make up an over whelming percentage of abortions?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
So who get’s charged? If an abortion takes place who are you going to punish? I keep going back to this because of your statement that there is no gray area there is either right or wrong.
[/quote]

409

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Okay, for the sake of discussion I’m going to grant you that we keep abortion legal in the cases were mother has a possible death or even rape. Will you join me in supporting legal restrictions on abortions done for socioeconomic reasons, that as studies on your side show, make up an over whelming percentage of abortions?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
So who get’s charged? If an abortion takes place who are you going to punish? I keep going back to this because of your statement that there is no gray area there is either right or wrong.
[/quote]
[/quote]

That’s the point I was trying to get you to see!! :slight_smile:

I will now admit that I have agreed all along with the point that abortion for the purpose of birth control is not right. Learn to use a condom (I mean seriously they aren’t that expensive).

And for the record it’s not my side :slight_smile:

410

Right now I am studying abroad in Santiago, Chile where they have a law in place that says if you have an abortion, you receive the death penalty. Guess what? I don’t see any of the problems the pro-choice people say we would have. Nothing! I really don’t understand why people want to do something that is morally debatable?

Your joke was cute, but hitting women shows nothing but insecurities. Just like beating kids, why physically dominate someone you are twice the size of? Does it prove you are big and tough?

And for the record, a punch to the side is free!! j/k ; )

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
That’s the point I was trying to get you to see!! :slight_smile:

I will now admit that I have agreed all along with the point that abortion for the purpose of birth control is not right. Learn to use a condom (I mean seriously they aren’t that expensive).

And for the record it’s not my side :)[/quote]

411

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Right now I am studying abroad in Santiago, Chile where they have a law in place that says if you have an abortion, you receive the death penalty. Guess what? I don’t see any of the problems the pro-choice people say we would have. Nothing! I really don’t understand why people want to do something that is morally debatable?

Your joke was cute, but hitting women shows nothing but insecurities. Just like beating kids, why physically dominate someone you are twice the size of? Does it prove you are big and tough?

And for the record, a punch to the side is free!! j/k ; )

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
That’s the point I was trying to get you to see!! :slight_smile:

I will now admit that I have agreed all along with the point that abortion for the purpose of birth control is not right. Learn to use a condom (I mean seriously they aren’t that expensive).

And for the record it’s not my side :)[/quote]
[/quote]

You lost me on the beating women and kids one? I’ve never advocated that at all.

412

hahaha I agree, guys should NEVER hit women OR kids : ) But a poke in the ribs is free. See the last sentence was a joke :^ )

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
You lost me on the beating women and kids one? I’ve never advocated that at all.[/quote]

413

This statement was rubbing me for a few days, then it clicked! I am totally open to a reasonable discussion. You admit you are close minded and refuse to open your mind to being wrong. People do the same thing when they claim through irrationality that ‘there is nothing you can do to convince me.’

An argument that is presented well can convince me of anything, I am wrong many times. Say you showed me science that proved a fetus was not human, I would then concede. I don’t think of myself as close minded. That behavior isn’t even tolerant let alone being open minded.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…this song and dance routine can, and will, go on forever because i won’t change my mind, and you won’t change your’s on this subject. So what’s the point?[/quote]

414

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
hahaha I agree, guys should NEVER hit women OR kids : ) But a poke in the ribs is free. See the last sentence was a joke ^ : )

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
You lost me on the beating women and kids one? I’ve never advocated that at all.[/quote]
[/quote]

Got it I’m a little slow today, last day of four day heading back in tomorrow.

415

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This statement was rubbing me for a few days, then it clicked! I am totally open to a reasonable discussion. You admit you are close minded and refuse to open your mind to being wrong. People do the same thing when they claim through irrationality that ‘there is nothing you can do to convince me.’

An argument that is presented well can convince me of anything, I am wrong many times. Say you showed me science that proved a fetus was not human, I would then concede. I don’t think of myself as close minded. That behavior isn’t even tolerant let alone being open minded.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…this song and dance routine can, and will, go on forever because i won’t change my mind, and you won’t change your’s on this subject. So what’s the point?[/quote]
[/quote]

At least he admits his shortcomings. Don’t even try to pretend you’d change your mind in the face of reasonable discourse.

416

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This statement was rubbing me for a few days, then it clicked! I am totally open to a reasonable discussion. You admit you are close minded and refuse to open your mind to being wrong. People do the same thing when they claim through irrationality that ‘there is nothing you can do to convince me.’

An argument that is presented well can convince me of anything, I am wrong many times. Say you showed me science that proved a fetus was not human, I would then concede. I don’t think of myself as close minded. That behavior isn’t even tolerant let alone being open minded.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…this song and dance routine can, and will, go on forever because i won’t change my mind, and you won’t change your’s on this subject. So what’s the point?[/quote]
[/quote]

…when you start replying to old posts; 4 or 5 in a row, and give counter-arguments that are in essence the same arguments other anti-abortionists gave in this thread, without reading my explanations [or giving a damn about them], there’s no incentive for me to engage a discussion with you…

…i don’t believe you when you say you’re openminded [or not closedminded in this case]. I’ve made my case and explained numerous times why i think a woman should have the choice to abort her pregnancy, within a limited legal timeframe. That you can’t accept that is not my problem, so what exactly is the point of continueing the discussion if neither of us will budge?

417

you have done nothing but provide your OPINION!! Zero science behind your claims hahaha Provide me some science that says life is the exact same as the mother, no different. I’ll wait for a long time. The science isn’t there.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…when you start replying to old posts; 4 or 5 in a row, and give counter-arguments that are in essence the same arguments other anti-abortionists gave in this thread, without reading my explanations [or giving a damn about them], there’s no incentive for me to engage a discussion with you…

…i don’t believe you when you say you’re openminded [or not closedminded in this case]. I’ve made my case and explained numerous times why i think a woman should have the choice to abort her pregnancy, within a limited legal timeframe. That you can’t accept that is not my problem, so what exactly is the point of continueing the discussion if neither of us will budge?
[/quote]

418

He admits when he is wrong? On this topic? Where? He just gives an opinion, like choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Nothing more. If he were to show me that the unborn are NOT human, I will admit my defeat.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

At least he admits his shortcomings. Don’t even try to pretend you’d change your mind in the face of reasonable discourse.[/quote]

419

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
He admits when he is wrong? On this topic? Where? He just gives an opinion, like choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Nothing more. If he were to show me that the unborn are NOT human, I will admit my defeat.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

At least he admits his shortcomings. Don’t even try to pretend you’d change your mind in the face of reasonable discourse.[/quote]
[/quote]

…how is that different from what you’re doing exactly? I never said a fetus is not human. What else can it be. A dog?

420

the fetus is human and I proved that with size, level of development, environment and degree of dependency. Where did you refute that?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…how is that different from what you’re doing exactly? I never said a fetus is not human. What else can it be. A dog?
[/quote]