This is What's Wrong With Abortion

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

I don’t usually speak out on this topic because it is so controversial.

 Ephrem---- ".i'm asking you the question: is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival?"

Obviously you must have come from money, and know absolutely nothing about abortion, poverty, or the American dream. Most of the encounters you hear from women who actually had abortions performed on them are riddled with guilt and regret, women that probably would have loved their children if they thought that was the only option.

I think its actually alot more difficult for mothers to not love their children then you would imagine. Its chemical. I’m also going to go out on a limb a say that the majority of people getting abortions are not people coming from streight up poverty.

They are your teenage suburban neighbor girl and cheating cougars.
Fact 1.) Abortion is not cheap. ($300-5000)
Fact 2.) People living on welfare want more children so they get more government money. People in the projects literally make livings off of having babies and getting them falsely diagnosed with disabilities. My sister did it. Its fucked up. Those are the babies that aren’t loved.

I believe that everyone is accountable for their actions. Whether you throw around words like murder or humanitarianism doesn’t change whats actually going on: a life is being augmented.

A system of events had already been set in place, the result of which would have been human life. Do I believe people should be allowed to grow up in poverty, without love, and fuck up their lives. Yes, dammit.

This is America! And everyone should have the chance to make or break there own story. We all-no matter what background we come from-have the ability to do great things, and we should all be given that chance.

262

[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
I don’t usually speak out on this topic because it is so controversial.

 Ephrem---- ".i'm asking you the question: is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival?"

Obviously you must have come from money, and know absolutely nothing about abortion, poverty, or the American dream. Most of the encounters you hear from women who actually had abortions performed on them are riddled with guilt and regret, women that probably would have loved their children if they thought that was the only option.

I think its actually alot more difficult for mothers to not love their children then you would imagine. Its chemical. I’m also going to go out on a limb a say that the majority of people getting abortions are not people coming from streight up poverty.

They are your teenage suburban neighbor girl and cheating cougars.
Fact 1.) Abortion is not cheap. ($300-5000)
Fact 2.) People living on welfare want more children so they get more government money. People in the projects literally make livings off of having babies and getting them falsely diagnosed with disabilities. My sister did it. Its fucked up. Those are the babies that aren’t loved.

I believe that everyone is accountable for their actions. Whether you throw around words like murder or humanitarianism doesn’t change whats actually going on: a life is being augmented.

A system of events had already been set in place, the result of which would have been human life. Do I believe people should be allowed to grow up in poverty, without love, and fuck up their lives. Yes, dammit.

This is America! And everyone should have the chance to make or break there own story. We all-no matter what background we come from-have the ability to do great things, and we should all be given that chance. [/quote]

…we’re talking opinion here, let’s not forget that. Having said that, i find it incredibly arrogant that someone else, men, think it’s perfectly fine to assume authority over what happens to a woman’s body, and then go on to say it’s good to sentence an unwanted child to a life of poverty on the offchance that it finds a way out of that misery…

…that is not your call to make, but i realise stupid people make stupid decisions. Some time ago, an evangelical network in Holland made a documentary on abortion and, without telling who they were, found a girl who thought nothing of it to abort a pregnancy because it would interfere with a skiing trip…

…but inspite of this, the remedy is worse than the illness, imo…

263

…wait, are you saying that because some girl in Holland thought nothing of aborting a pregnancy because it was interfering with her skiing trip that abortion is a justifiable cause? or the opposite? WTF did you just say?

264

…lol, i’m acknowledging that legalized abortion can, and will be, abused for stupid reasons. I just don’t think cases like that outweigh the greater common good, and i think that criminalizing abortion because of these cases has a bigger detrimental effect on society, inspite of the stupid choices some people make…

265

I haven’t read all eleven pages of this thread, but I just want people who are pro choice to do me a favor. Just so you know, I think women deserve the best health care etc., I think they should be able to chose everything. There shouldn’t be an option she shouldn’t have. Every person needs that right. Define the unborn? A simple answer is all that’s needed. I’ll post my answer tomorrow ; ) I refuse to start a a fight : D

266

What is this a bump for the one year anniversary?

267

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I haven’t read all eleven pages of this thread, but I just want people who are pro choice to do me a favor. Just so you know, I think women deserve the best health care etc., I think they should be able to chose everything. There shouldn’t be an option she shouldn’t have. Every person needs that right. Define the unborn? A simple answer is all that’s needed. I’ll post my answer tomorrow ; ) I refuse to start a a fight : D[/quote]

If you didn’t want to start it, then why bump this? JC?

268

The dates just where chance my man : ) Kind of fitting though ; )

[quote]snipeout wrote:
What is this a bump for the one year anniversary?[/quote]

And where did I say I don’t want to talk about it? Women deserve the best, what about the child which she carries? Don’t they have a right to life, with the best health care as well?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
If you didn’t want to start it, then why bump this? JC?[/quote]

269

I said I will post my answer today, so here IS my post:

The unborn are simply no different than any person alive today. Simply four characteristics that define and make them a little different. The unborn are 1) in a different stage of development. ALL life goes through different stages on development. 2) the unborn are simply in an environment where they need to be, naturally 3) their location is where they need to be 4) the unborn start life and can’t even be seen with the naked eye. That doesn’t mean they are NOT human.

The unborn ARE human. The above 4 characteristics simply define the unborn. Other than that they are NO different than you, I or any person alive today.

So why/how is it OK to kill the unborn?

270

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…it isn’t disparaging if indeed abortion is outlawed, because that means that half your countries population lost it’s right to self determination, and is subject to the state. A fetus is not an other, it may become an other, but until it reaches a certain point in it’s development, it’s not an other and therefore does not have the same rights a living, breathing person has…

Living breathing external babies are being killed as in this case.

All countries limit self determination. You cannot just do anything you want. Outlawing anything makes us “not free”. Do they let you kill people in Holland? If not, then you have no “self determination”.[/quote]

…people are killed everywhere, for various reasons. That does not mean that basic human rights should be curtailed just because we want to prevent certain things. These excesses, deplorable as they are, do not justify the oppression of every virtile woman in your country. The consequences of that are too far reaching…

…6 countries in Europe: Ireland, Poland, Malta, Cyprus, Lichtenstein and Portugal have still not legalized abortion. Altough that’s their prerogative, as it would be your countries prerogative to outlaw abortion, i also feel that in these cases that fact is deplorable…

…a few years back, a dutch organisation, caused quite a storm in europe by building a abortion-boat and sail to those countries accessable by sea, and take on board women who want an abortion, sail to international waters and perform the abortion there: Abortion Facts @ Women on Waves and they’re still going strong. It would be sad to have them sail the atlantic ocean to help your women out, wouldn’t it?

[/quote]

You think killing people is a basic right? That’s pretty sick really.

271

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The dates just where chance my man : ) Kind of fitting though ; )

[quote]snipeout wrote:
What is this a bump for the one year anniversary?[/quote]

And where did I say I don’t want to talk about it? Women deserve the best, what about the child which she carries? Don’t they have a right to life, with the best health care as well?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
If you didn’t want to start it, then why bump this? JC?[/quote]
[/quote]

Sorry I stand corrected, you said you didn’t want to start a fight. Luckily most everybody is argueing over something already…

272

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
From reading that piece it doesn’t state anywhere that the baby/embryo had any chance of surviving, the cause of death is listed as extreme prematurity. The pregnancy was at 23 weeks and as far as I know there has only been 1 case where a baby born before 23 weeks has survived and in that case, they were specifically set up to try and save the baby, which of course would not be the case in an abortion clinic.

Seems like the Doctor (and others) totally fucked up and should be fully investigated and whatever punnishment should be applied.

If it can be argued that he was criminally negligent then he should be charged with that. You cannot charge him with Murder though because Abortion is legal.

The piece uses words like decomposing infant deliberately to pull on your heartstrings and it works.

It’s a pretty horrible case but if you accept abortion as right then you cannot call the guy a murderer. If you are anti abortion then go ahead and call the guy a murderer, but then again, even had he performed the procedure correctly that would still be the case.[/quote]

If someone finds you wounded on the street is it justifiable to throw you in a dumpster rather than help because you don’t have good survival odds? Many gunshot victims are living beings, but at that point can’t survive on their own, so would they forfeit their human rights? I guess we should do away with ambulances and emergency services and load up the dumpsters.

Alive is alive, whether you need help to survive or not.

[/quote]

Totally different situation, you went from healthy on your own to injured. A fetus outside the womb is never in a healthy state on its own.

273

Any life, is a life. You disagree? Killing the unborn is NO different than killing an adult.

And since when is are all fetus’ NOT healthy?

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
Totally different situation, you went from healthy on your own to injured. A fetus outside the womb is never in a healthy state on its own.[/quote]

274

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…it isn’t disparaging if indeed abortion is outlawed, because that means that half your countries population lost it’s right to self determination, and is subject to the state. A fetus is not an other, it may become an other, but until it reaches a certain point in it’s development, it’s not an other and therefore does not have the same rights a living, breathing person has…

Living breathing external babies are being killed as in this case.

All countries limit self determination. You cannot just do anything you want. Outlawing anything makes us “not free”. Do they let you kill people in Holland? If not, then you have no “self determination”.[/quote]

…people are killed everywhere, for various reasons. That does not mean that basic human rights should be curtailed just because we want to prevent certain things. These excesses, deplorable as they are, do not justify the oppression of every virtile woman in your country. The consequences of that are too far reaching…

…6 countries in Europe: Ireland, Poland, Malta, Cyprus, Lichtenstein and Portugal have still not legalized abortion. Altough that’s their prerogative, as it would be your countries prerogative to outlaw abortion, i also feel that in these cases that fact is deplorable…

…a few years back, a dutch organisation, caused quite a storm in europe by building a abortion-boat and sail to those countries accessable by sea, and take on board women who want an abortion, sail to international waters and perform the abortion there: Abortion Facts @ Women on Waves and they’re still going strong. It would be sad to have them sail the atlantic ocean to help your women out, wouldn’t it?

[/quote]

You think killing people is a basic right? That’s pretty sick really. [/quote]

…a fetus is not a person, so that does not constitute killing…

275

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Any life, is a life. You disagree? Killing the unborn is NO different than killing an adult.

And since when is are all fetus’ NOT healthy?

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
Totally different situation, you went from healthy on your own to injured. A fetus outside the womb is never in a healthy state on its own.[/quote]
[/quote]

…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…

276

The right of the unborn baby might be a better way to say it.

There are many legal precedents to tell a woman, man or child what they can and cannot do with their body. We can’t sell a kidney. We can’t sell our bodies for sex in most states, or display our bodies in certain degrees of nudity. We cannot urinate or defecate in public.

So the ole Gummint can’t tell me what to do with my body has gone by the wayside a long time ago.

Now I’m pro life for a few reasons, 1. that bay/fertilized egg/.fetus is the same DNA wise as a 100 year old person, 2 year old, or thirty year old. Our brains do not mature completely to app. 25 years of age. So at one cell I was me, DNA wise, and as for brain activity, at 25 or so I was done maturing.

  1. Recent studies has shown that in the womb, twins interact much earlier than previously thought in human ways. I forget the actual time frame, but it was earlier than thought possible before. Kind of hard for a kid to tease, comfort, or play with anyone else if there is no one else. so you can’t observe this behavior if there is no other baby.

And you didn’t have the available technology. So science came along and said, " look human interaction". Wonder how many abortions happened after that time frame? Maybe someone else saw the same thing and can give greater specifics.

So to me this woman’s right thing is a big you’re not going to tell me what to do issue. An abdication of personal responsibility. You have sex, you can have lots of unwanted things, disease and pregnancy. that is if you don’t want to get pregnant.

You might not want it, but if you make a choice where you know the possibilities, there can be consequences. You drive drunk you risk your safety and the safety of others, legal expenses, and jail time. actions have consequences.

So if you want to think a fetus is a life, you are against abortion. If you think it’s just tissue, no different than a bad gall bladder, appendix, or cyst that needs to be removed , you probably fall intot he abortion category.

But I seriously think as we learn and observe more the pro life types will be proved right earlier and earlier. It’s already happened more than once. What happens then? Oops, I guess we did kill what? 60-100 million people?

277

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…it isn’t disparaging if indeed abortion is outlawed, because that means that half your countries population lost it’s right to self determination, and is subject to the state. A fetus is not an other, it may become an other, but until it reaches a certain point in it’s development, it’s not an other and therefore does not have the same rights a living, breathing person has…

Living breathing external babies are being killed as in this case.

All countries limit self determination. You cannot just do anything you want. Outlawing anything makes us “not free”. Do they let you kill people in Holland? If not, then you have no “self determination”.[/quote]

…people are killed everywhere, for various reasons. That does not mean that basic human rights should be curtailed just because we want to prevent certain things. These excesses, deplorable as they are, do not justify the oppression of every virtile woman in your country. The consequences of that are too far reaching…

…6 countries in Europe: Ireland, Poland, Malta, Cyprus, Lichtenstein and Portugal have still not legalized abortion. Altough that’s their prerogative, as it would be your countries prerogative to outlaw abortion, i also feel that in these cases that fact is deplorable…

…a few years back, a dutch organisation, caused quite a storm in europe by building a abortion-boat and sail to those countries accessable by sea, and take on board women who want an abortion, sail to international waters and perform the abortion there: Abortion Facts @ Women on Waves and they’re still going strong. It would be sad to have them sail the atlantic ocean to help your women out, wouldn’t it?

[/quote]

You think killing people is a basic right? That’s pretty sick really. [/quote]

…a fetus is not a person, so that does not constitute killing…
[/quote]

What is it a gerbil? I bet if we took DNA you as a zygote and match it up with you today, it’s be an exact match.

What was the thing that the original poster linked to, if not a person?

278

And where is the biology to back this claim? A fetus is a person! What makes you seperate from any other person? A fetus shares those SAME traits!! They have their own separate DNA, they are contained and grow at an extremely fast rate. I can go on and on as to how they ARE different and alive, but why give more points to the obvious. shrug

[quote]ephrem wrote: …a fetus is not a person, so that does not constitute killing…
[/quote]

279

This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

It was Regan who said that it was people who were alive who have the ability to choose abortion, no one asks the child about to be killed. Here is a little bit from Wikipedia -

Abortion and the Conscience of the Nation (1983) ISBN 0964112531

We must all educate ourselves to the reality of the horrors taking place.

* Make no mistake, abortion-on-demand is not a right granted by the Constitution. No serious scholar, including one disposed to agree with the Court's result, has argued that the framers of the Constitution intended to create such a right.

* The decision by the seven-man majority in Roe v. Wade has so far been made to stick. But the Court's decision has by no means settled the debate. Instead, Roe v. Wade has become a continuing prod to the conscience of the nation.

* We cannot diminish the value of one category of human life â?? the unborn â?? without diminishing the value of all human life.

* If you don't know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it. I think this consideration itself should be enough for all of us to insist on protecting the unborn.

* The real question today is not when human life begins, but, What is the value of human life?

* The abortionist who reassembles the arms and legs of a tiny baby to make sure all its parts have been torn from its mother's body can hardly doubt whether it is a human being.

* Regrettably, we live at a time when some persons do not value all human life. They want to pick and choose which individuals have value.

* As a nation, we must choose between the sanctity of life ethic and the "quality of life" ethic. I have no trouble identifying the answer our nation has always given to this basic question, and the answer that I hope and pray it will give in the future.

* As a nation today, we have not rejected the sanctity of human life. The American people have not had an opportunity to express their view on the sanctity of human life in the unborn. I am convinced that Americans do not want to play God with the value of human life. It is not for us to decide who is worthy to live and who is not. Even the Supreme Court's opinion in Roe v. Wade did not explicitly reject the traditional American idea of intrinsic worth and value in all human life; it simply dodged this issue.

* We must all educate ourselves to the reality of the horrors taking place. Doctors today know that unborn children can feel a touch within the womb and that they respond to pain.

* Late-term abortions, especially when the baby survives, but is then killed by starvation, neglect, or suffocation, show once again the link between abortion and infanticide. The time to stop both is now.

* It is possible that the Supreme Court itself may overturn its abortion rulings. We need only recall that in Brown v. Board of Education the court reversed its own earlier "separate-but-equal" decision.

* As we continue to work to overturn Roe v. Wade, we must also continue to lay the groundwork for a society in which abortion is not the accepted answer to unwanted pregnancy. Pro-life people have already taken heroic steps, often at great personal sacrifice, to provide for unwed mothers.

* We will never recognize the true value of our own lives until we affirm the value in the life of others.

* We cannot survive as a free nation when some men decide that others are not fit to live and should be abandoned to abortion or infanticide. My Administration is dedicated to the preservation of America as a free land, and there is no cause more important for preserving that freedom than affirming the transcendent right to life of all human beings, the right without which no other rights have any meaning.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]

280

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

You think killing people is a basic right? That’s pretty sick really. [/quote]

…a fetus is not a person, so that does not constitute killing…
[/quote]

What is it a gerbil? I bet if we took DNA you as a zygote and match it up with you today, it’s be an exact match.

What was the thing that the original poster linked to, if not a person?[/quote]

…at that stage it’s a clump of cells that has the potential of becoming human…