This is What's Wrong With Abortion

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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…a memory is not an immaterial current of experience. A memory is information stored in the memory center, it is physically bound to the brain. Visual information is processed by neurons that fire after photons trigger the retina. The impuls from that neuron then exites other, specialized, neurons to create an image of reality.

This all happens in the brain. Some scientists are confident that in the near future, we are able to see what someone is thinking, just by looking at brainwaves. Scary, but interesting…

[quote]So you believe, by stimulating parts of the brain, you can trigger the exact same visions in peoples minds from one to another, even if there entire life experience is dissimilar? Hardly likely.

This got way off topic.[/quote]

…no, that was not what i was suggesting. Simple basic shapes like a triangle, i see no problem with that, but complex experiences is a different matter…

242

[quote]Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.[/quote]

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

243

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

[/quote]

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it.

244

[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it. [/quote]

…the problem there is demographics. Studies have shown: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html that Hispanic and African-American women, who come from a predominantly low income background, have the most abortions…

…so, let’s assume most of these women choose to abort their pregnancies because they have no means to provide their children with a future. If, after banning abortion, a significant portion of these pregnancies are carried fullterm, the children will not cared for in a way they deserve to be, unless the state or federal government assists the mother…

…do you think this is a likely scenario? How do you feel about your taxpayers money being used for such a scenario? Do you have any alternatives?

245

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it.

…the problem there is demographics. Studies have shown: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html that Hispanic and African-American women, who come from a predominantly low income background, have the most abortions…

…so, let’s assume most of these women choose to abort their pregnancies because they have no means to provide their children with a future. If, after banning abortion, a significant portion of these pregnancies are carried fullterm, the children will not cared for in a way they deserve to be, unless the state or federal government assists the mother…

…do you think this is a likely scenario? How do you feel about your taxpayers money being used for such a scenario? Do you have any alternatives?

[/quote]

Heh. Now who hates the poor and minorities?!

246

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it.

…the problem there is demographics. Studies have shown: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html that Hispanic and African-American women, who come from a predominantly low income background, have the most abortions…

…so, let’s assume most of these women choose to abort their pregnancies because they have no means to provide their children with a future. If, after banning abortion, a significant portion of these pregnancies are carried fullterm, the children will not cared for in a way they deserve to be, unless the state or federal government assists the mother…

…do you think this is a likely scenario? How do you feel about your taxpayers money being used for such a scenario? Do you have any alternatives?

[/quote]

So what you are saying here, is that it’s ok to kill people based on socio-economic considerations…Homeless beware!

247

[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote: You failing to separate the center of activity from the the thing that it creates. A memory center isn’t the specific memory. Visual activity isn’t the vision. It is a stimulus/response. You can’t carve up someones brain and see what they were thinking.

…a memory is not an immaterial current of experience. A memory is information stored in the memory center, it is physically bound to the brain. Visual information is processed by neurons that fire after photons trigger the retina. The impuls from that neuron then exites other, specialized, neurons to create an image of reality.
[/quote]
The image and the process that creates it are two separate things not one in the same. If you could transpose that same process to someone elses’ brain, it is unlikely they would have the same mental experience. The may have ta thought or image, but it would not be the same as yours. Further, you actually could not quanitfy in anyway that the thought is the same. They could say it’s the same, but you can never know it with certainty. The only way you could know for certainty, is to become them.

I think you are underestimating the complicated nature of the brain. The average human brain can process one trillion separate pieces of information per second. Emulating any thought from one person to another, no matter how simple the thought would be phenomenally complicated even if you could isolate the variables, and further, if you could do it, you could never know if it worked.

248

[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it.

…the problem there is demographics. Studies have shown: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html that Hispanic and African-American women, who come from a predominantly low income background, have the most abortions…

…so, let’s assume most of these women choose to abort their pregnancies because they have no means to provide their children with a future. If, after banning abortion, a significant portion of these pregnancies are carried fullterm, the children will not cared for in a way they deserve to be, unless the state or federal government assists the mother…

…do you think this is a likely scenario? How do you feel about your taxpayers money being used for such a scenario? Do you have any alternatives?

Heh. Now who hates the poor and minorities?! [/quote]

…that’s rather pathetic Sloth, and a further indication that you, and those believing like you [pat], have no real interest in searching for the best way of dealing with sensitive issues like abortion…

249

[quote]pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it.

…the problem there is demographics. Studies have shown: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html that Hispanic and African-American women, who come from a predominantly low income background, have the most abortions…

…so, let’s assume most of these women choose to abort their pregnancies because they have no means to provide their children with a future. If, after banning abortion, a significant portion of these pregnancies are carried fullterm, the children will not cared for in a way they deserve to be, unless the state or federal government assists the mother…

…do you think this is a likely scenario? How do you feel about your taxpayers money being used for such a scenario? Do you have any alternatives?

So what you are saying here, is that it’s ok to kill people based on socio-economic considerations…Homeless beware![/quote]

…killing a homeless person is murder, abortion is not. Your arguments are failing, so you resort to hyperbole. That does not surprise me in the least…

250

[quote]pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:…a memory is not an immaterial current of experience. A memory is information stored in the memory center, it is physically bound to the brain. Visual information is processed by neurons that fire after photons trigger the retina. The impuls from that neuron then exites other, specialized, neurons to create an image of reality.

The image and the process that creates it are two separate things not one in the same. If you could transpose that same process to someone elses’ brain, it is unlikely they would have the same mental experience. The may have ta thought or image, but it would not be the same as yours. Further, you actually could not quanitfy in anyway that the thought is the same. They could say it’s the same, but you can never know it with certainty. The only way you could know for certainty, is to become them.[/quote]

…so, according to you, what is thought?

251

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that’s rather pathetic Sloth, and a further indication that you, and those believing like you [pat], have no real interest in searching for the best way of dealing with sensitive issues like abortion…

[/quote]

Pathetic? Your question is basically “how then do we keep the number of blacks, hispanics, and the number children born to the poor, down?!” There’s no way around it. This question sells abortion as some sort of self-selecting population control for…undersireables. That’s exactly the question you’re asking. That is pathetic. Black, hispanic, poor. They deserve their lives just as much as a rich white American. Thankfully, my poor white parents never questioned my right to life.

252

[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…that’s rather pathetic Sloth, and a further indication that you, and those believing like you [pat], have no real interest in searching for the best way of dealing with sensitive issues like abortion…

Pathetic? Your question is basically “how then do we keep the number of blacks, hispanics, and the number children born to the poor, down?!” There’s no way around it. This question sells abortion as some sort of self-selecting population control for…undersireables. That’s exactly the question you’re asking. That is pathetic. Black, hispanic, poor. They deserve their lives just as much as a rich white American. Thankfully, my poor white parents never questioned my right to life.[/quote]

…yes, pathetic. Putting words in my mouth does not make your weak stance any stronger, in fact, it makes you look desperate. Simply outlawing abortion may result in fewer abortions, but causes a number of other problems that have a greater detrimental influence on society than abortion has. If you cannot, or will not, adress those problems, and look for solutions to them, then what are you doing?

…i’m asking you the question: is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival?

253

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…yes, pathetic. Putting words in my mouth does not make your weak stance any stronger, in fact, it makes you look desperate. Simply outlawing abortion may result in fewer abortions, but causes a number of other problems that have a greater detrimental influence on society than abortion has. [/quote]

Oh, please feel free to reword your question as to make your intent crystal clear. However, just from the above quote, it seems as if I hit the mark. We wouldn’t want all those aborted, and now dead, brown folks having a “detrimental influence on society”, right?

254

[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…yes, pathetic. Putting words in my mouth does not make your weak stance any stronger, in fact, it makes you look desperate. Simply outlawing abortion may result in fewer abortions, but causes a number of other problems that have a greater detrimental influence on society than abortion has.

Oh, please feel free to reword your question as to make your intent crystal clear. However, just from the above quote, it seems as if I hit the mark. We wouldn’t want all those aborted, and now dead, brown folks having a “detrimental influence on society”, right?[/quote]

…lol! Your sudden rush of righteous indignation stopped you from answering a valid question Sloth: Is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival?

255

[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:…let me phrase that differently: do you think we’ll see a significant decline in abortions performed when abortion becomes illegal?

I would think so.

…okay. What do you think the socio-economic consequences are for your country if abortion is outlawed?

Whatever the people whose lives were spared make of it.

…the problem there is demographics. Studies have shown: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html that Hispanic and African-American women, who come from a predominantly low income background, have the most abortions…

…so, let’s assume most of these women choose to abort their pregnancies because they have no means to provide their children with a future. If, after banning abortion, a significant portion of these pregnancies are carried fullterm, the children will not cared for in a way they deserve to be, unless the state or federal government assists the mother…

…do you think this is a likely scenario? How do you feel about your taxpayers money being used for such a scenario? Do you have any alternatives?

So what you are saying here, is that it’s ok to kill people based on socio-economic considerations…Homeless beware!

…killing a homeless person is murder, abortion is not. Your arguments are failing, so you resort to hyperbole. That does not surprise me in the least…
[/quote]

How is an abortion not murder…You’re feeble argument that it must have brain activity. What is a fetus if not a human life…Is it a dog, an amoeba? Or is it a human life. There is no decernable break in the chain of human life save for conception and death. People go through stages through out their entire lives, you cannot say that the life you take is not human simply because you do not like which stage of development it’s in. Newborns are useless, toddlers are pretty useless, children are somewhat useless, and many adults are stupider than dogshit, but killing them is still murder. The human brain doesn’t fully develop until a person is in their twenties. Arguable it doesn’t stop developing until it begins to degrade.
You cannot make a good argument that a 25 week old fetus is more human than it was at 20 weeks, it puts you on what is called a slippery slope which is a logical fallacy. The life at 40 weeks and born is the same life at 20 weeks, as it was the same life at 10 weeks as it was the same life it was at 1 day. The embryo at one day is the same person it is at 2 years. It isn’t something arbitrary until you decide it has enough brain activity for you to consider it living person. We have living proof that you can function at a high level, with no brain at all, see nancy pelosi.
Brain activity alone does not a human make…Perhaps you should first take to task what alive means, first for it is clear you do not know.

256

[quote]pat wrote:

How is an abortion not murder…[/quote]

…because your Supreme Court says so. There’s no point in going 'round and 'round the same tired arguments [from both sides]. I think i’ve argued my point, and asked valid questions that remain unanswered, so i’ll bow out of this discussion. It’s been educational for me, so it’s not been for nothing. Have a good weekend!

257

[quote]ephrem wrote:
pat wrote:

How is an abortion not murder…

…because your Supreme Court says so. There’s no point in going 'round and 'round the same tired arguments [from both sides]. I think i’ve argued my point, and asked valid questions that remain unanswered, so i’ll bow out of this discussion. It’s been educational for me, so it’s not been for nothing. Have a good weekend![/quote]

What questions? The supreme court is not God. It is a court made of fallible people. People fuck up. I also explained why the court fucked up. For the client Roe, was not seeking an abortion and was not intending to, so the decision was made on false pretenses.

258

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…lol! Your sudden rush of righteous indignation stopped you from answering a valid question Sloth: Is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival? [/quote]

No hope? A man has the capacity and a reason to hope until he’s dead. Only then has the clock run out on his struggles, and on hope. Abortion stops the clock before he even has the chance to struggle. Even before he’s had the opportunity to direct his energy and will towards improving his lot in life, abortion has robbed him of everthing. Everything. Including hope. If you’re truly worried about the absence of hope, oppose abortion.

Any black folk here come from a poor/broken household? We’re debating whether or not you should have been killed in the womb.

259

[quote]ephrem wrote:
(Compared to abortion) … is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival?
[/quote]

Yes, it is.

p.s. “So then you (I) must think lovelessness, poverty, and crime are good” is a non-sequitor.

p.p.s. “If you don’t want to allow abortion, then you are responsible for fixing the problems that will be faced by the people who otherwise would have been aborted” is also a non-sequitor.

260

[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
(Compared to abortion) … is it really better to let unwanted children be born in a reality where they have no hope for a proper future, where they will be unloved and forced to grow up in poverty and crime, where the mother either gives up the child into the care of child services and/or has to rely on government hand-outs for survival?

Yes, it is.[/quote]

How so