This is What's Wrong With Abortion

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…

282

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?

283

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]
Post delivery the baby cannot survive without food, warmth and shelter from the mother. It’s not like it can go to the store.

284

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?[/quote]

…as in human as we are human; e.i. fullfledged? No, i do not…

285

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]
Post delivery the baby cannot survive without food, warmth and shelter from the mother. It’s not like it can go to the store.[/quote]

…it doesn’t have to be the mother, does it? It can be anyone, so what’s your point?

286

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?[/quote]

…as in human as we are human; e.i. fullfledged? No, i do not…
[/quote]

Define what a fullfledged human is, please…

287

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?[/quote]

…as in human as we are human; e.i. fullfledged? No, i do not…
[/quote]

Define what a fullfledged human is, please…[/quote]

…someone who left the womb of his/her mother, or an unborn child who made it past the 23rd week of gestation…

288

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?[/quote]

…as in human as we are human; e.i. fullfledged? No, i do not…
[/quote]

Define what a fullfledged human is, please…[/quote]

…someone who left the womb of his/her mother, or an unborn child who made it past the 23rd week of gestation…
[/quote]

No, no. Not when you think a person becomes a human, what is a full-fledged human?

289

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?[/quote]

…as in human as we are human; e.i. fullfledged? No, i do not…
[/quote]

Define what a fullfledged human is, please…[/quote]

…someone who left the womb of his/her mother, or an unborn child who made it past the 23rd week of gestation…
[/quote]

No, no. Not when you think a person becomes a human, what is a full-fledged human? [/quote]

…sorry pat: someone who left the womb of his/her mother, or an unborn child who made it past the 23rd week of gestation…

290

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This WILL change for the lives of the future!! Why are we even discussing current times? Laws will change to protect ALL life!! So why is it you believe 16 weeks is the magic time instead of 23 weeks? How about the fact that from the moment of conception is the start of reactions that result in a person.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…within a limited legal timeframe the fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination. I wouldn’t mind if that legal timeframe is lowered to 16 weeks instead of 23 weeks, but within those first four months what happens to the fetus is up to the woman, and the woman alone…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…at 16 weeks the fetus can’t survive outside the womb, and as such it’s brain is insuffiently formed to be [self] aware. This cut-off point is arbitrary, and just to make sure you understand; i’m not pro-abortion but pro-choice. After the first 16 weeks, barring valid medical reasons, the mother can’t abort the pregnancy…

…i’m not going to go over this again tbh. How i feel about this issue is all in this thread…
[/quote]

So you consider it a human at 16 weeks?[/quote]

…as in human as we are human; e.i. fullfledged? No, i do not…
[/quote]

Define what a fullfledged human is, please…[/quote]

…someone who left the womb of his/her mother, or an unborn child who made it past the 23rd week of gestation…
[/quote]

No, no. Not when you think a person becomes a human, what is a full-fledged human? [/quote]

…sorry pat: someone who left the womb of his/her mother, or an unborn child who made it past the 23rd week of gestation…[/quote]

OK, allow me to rephrase. What constitutes a person being a full-fledge human, past the 23 week gestation mark. Or are you saying that age is the only determinant factor of what make a human a human?

Good dodge-job by the way…

291

[quote]pat wrote:

OK, allow me to rephrase. What constitutes a person being a full-fledge human, past the 23 week gestation mark. Or are you saying that age is the only determinant factor of what make a human a human?

Good dodge-job by the way…[/quote]

…thank you, you taught me well (: How about sentience?

292

Perhaps every once in a very great while we should make an exception.

293

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

OK, allow me to rephrase. What constitutes a person being a full-fledge human, past the 23 week gestation mark. Or are you saying that age is the only determinant factor of what make a human a human?

Good dodge-job by the way…[/quote]

…thank you, you taught me well (: How about sentience?[/quote]

Ha!
I dodged nothing. No offense intended, but why can’t you answer the question?
Despite the stance you hold, you have to be prepared to explain it; and be right. I am less interested in you sharing my stance as I am interested in hearing pure honesty based on something solid.
Put anything I have conversed with you about to the test, I don’t give a fuck because I’ll pass.

Look if you want to be a pro-abortionist or atheist go ahead, but be good at it. There are weaknesses in my arguments and there is nothing I can do about them; you haven’t found them. Find them and lets discuss them. But don’t be evasive, you have put great effort into these discussions, see it through.

294

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Perhaps every once in a very great while we should make an exception. [/quote]

You have a point…Imagine that slipping under the covers with you…RALF!

295

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Perhaps every once in a very great while we should make an exception. [/quote]

I support post-term abortion when the life of the country is at stake.

296

http://jfaweb.org/0101.html

Look at this and don’t tell me you don’t feel a reaction.

297

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

OK, allow me to rephrase. What constitutes a person being a full-fledge human, past the 23 week gestation mark. Or are you saying that age is the only determinant factor of what make a human a human?

Good dodge-job by the way…[/quote]

…thank you, you taught me well (: How about sentience?[/quote]

Ha!
I dodged nothing. No offense intended, but why can’t you answer the question?
Despite the stance you hold, you have to be prepared to explain it; and be right. I am less interested in you sharing my stance as I am interested in hearing pure honesty based on something solid.
Put anything I have conversed with you about to the test, I don’t give a fuck because I’ll pass.

Look if you want to be a pro-abortionist or atheist go ahead, but be good at it. There are weaknesses in my arguments and there is nothing I can do about them; you haven’t found them. Find them and lets discuss them. But don’t be evasive, you have put great effort into these discussions, see it through.[/quote]

…what is a full-fledged human? It starts with sentience. Now, in an earlier post i clarified i’m not pro-abortion, and why i’m not. So, play nice and don’t be a dick…

298

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

OK, allow me to rephrase. What constitutes a person being a full-fledge human, past the 23 week gestation mark. Or are you saying that age is the only determinant factor of what make a human a human?

Good dodge-job by the way…[/quote]

…thank you, you taught me well (: How about sentience?[/quote]

Ha!
I dodged nothing. No offense intended, but why can’t you answer the question?
Despite the stance you hold, you have to be prepared to explain it; and be right. I am less interested in you sharing my stance as I am interested in hearing pure honesty based on something solid.
Put anything I have conversed with you about to the test, I don’t give a fuck because I’ll pass.

Look if you want to be a pro-abortionist or atheist go ahead, but be good at it. There are weaknesses in my arguments and there is nothing I can do about them; you haven’t found them. Find them and lets discuss them. But don’t be evasive, you have put great effort into these discussions, see it through.[/quote]

…what is a full-fledged human? It starts with sentience. Now, in an earlier post i clarified i’m not pro-abortion, and why i’m not. So, play nice and don’t be a dick…
[/quote]

How the fuck do you measure sentience? You cannot know what has or does not have it.

299

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

OK, allow me to rephrase. What constitutes a person being a full-fledge human, past the 23 week gestation mark. Or are you saying that age is the only determinant factor of what make a human a human?

Good dodge-job by the way…[/quote]

…thank you, you taught me well (: How about sentience?[/quote]

Ha!
I dodged nothing. No offense intended, but why can’t you answer the question?
Despite the stance you hold, you have to be prepared to explain it; and be right. I am less interested in you sharing my stance as I am interested in hearing pure honesty based on something solid.
Put anything I have conversed with you about to the test, I don’t give a fuck because I’ll pass.

Look if you want to be a pro-abortionist or atheist go ahead, but be good at it. There are weaknesses in my arguments and there is nothing I can do about them; you haven’t found them. Find them and lets discuss them. But don’t be evasive, you have put great effort into these discussions, see it through.[/quote]

…what is a full-fledged human? It starts with sentience. Now, in an earlier post i clarified i’m not pro-abortion, and why i’m not. So, play nice and don’t be a dick…
[/quote]

How the fuck do you measure sentience? You cannot know what has or does not have it.[/quote]

…are you sentient, pat? There, that’s a measurement. When the brain hasn’t developed enough to exibit it’s higher functions, you could say that person isn’t a fully fledged person yet. We’ve already been over this…

300

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what is a full-fledged human? It starts with sentience. Now, in an earlier post i clarified i’m not pro-abortion, and why i’m not. So, play nice and don’t be a dick…
[/quote]

How the fuck do you measure sentience? You cannot know what has or does not have it.[/quote]

…are you sentient, pat? There, that’s a measurement. When the brain hasn’t developed enough to exibit it’s higher functions, you could say that person isn’t a fully fledged person yet. We’ve already been over this…
[/quote]

You cannot know that. You may think it, but you don’t know.

So is the definition of a person having necessarily higher level brain function? Sounds like a stretch to me. There is more to person hood then that.