This is Pretty Sick...

Listen people. I know about Sayid Qutb. Not a nice guy. I know about the Hamas pamphlet that first advocated suicide bombings- ?The suicide bombings in the balance of jurisprudence?.All these writings are shitty and evil, NO DOUBT. Do you hear me? acknowledge this. But listen to David Ben-Gurion’s u-turn please- pre-Israel-
“Zionism has no right to harm a single Arab child, even if with this we could achieve all our wishes.” Sounds nice? This guy sounds to me like a real leader of men, a follower of Yeshua Bin-Joseph (not the bullshit apocrypha)
Now, post-Israel’s establishment-
?Jews, having previously subject to the will of non-Jews, (founded) Israel, as the Jewish state, (that) would never submit to constraints imposed by others.?

OH

So I guess the UN have their work cut out for them! You guys, for one moment, forget that i see reason in the terrorism where you see barbarity. Forget that i see causality in the Israeli militaries bombings and assassinations and fences and confinements and shin bet’s sins. This man is the Abraham Lincoln of Israel. And he’s stubborn as fuck.

Please someone who purports to be knowledgeable, quote something to me, except repeating “terrorism is bad, mmkay?” and what you read in the newspapers about how brutal and primitive the arabs are. You try saying that about black people, or Jews, see what happens. No, you wouldn’t would you, as thats nasty.

Remember that Irgun bombed Jerusalem (the world’s holiest place perhaps) to get their state of Israel. The leader of this group became… Israeli PM Menachim Begin!

I’ll quote Moshe Dayan (Israeli military during the 6 days war, and no pussy)

?They hate us not for religious or racial reasons. They consider us, justly, as western invaders who seized an Arab country to make it a Jewish state. Who are we to blame them for hating us??

This guy is the Colin Powell of Israel. Imagine if Colin said tomorrow “We’re setting up puppet democracies in all of the former Ottoman empire, basically, If you don’t suck our cock (like UAE) and shut up, we’ll demonise you in the press and then fuck up everything you hold dear.”

Someone say something new please

Here’s what you’ve said so far, and what i think of it.

Terrorists are evil, should be punished
AGREE

Israel has a right to exist
AGREE (but conditional on Ben Gurion’s first quote)

Terrorism is war
AGREE (but look at the relative figures, i’ll bet ?100 Israel has killed as many in the last month as all Islamic extremists have killed in the last year. Why? Because America undeniably gives them the means to. Your special forces trained theirs, and you supply them with weapons)

miscellaneous other

Vroom, from your last post-
“Personally, I don’t give a shit who lost what chunk of land for what reason and how badly they want it back.”

I know it’s done now, but would it then have been fair to say that to all the jews of the world in 1947? I don’t believe so. If it’s right for one, it must be in accord. Or it’s hypocrisy.

“The place to go, if there is in fact any place, is the UN.” Okay, sorry, i’ve been talking shit. In fact, it was resolution 242 that demanded immediate withdrawal from all occupied areas of Palestine (in 1967!). Since then, they’ve expanded land appropriation, and settlement in the occupied areas is taking place more than 4X faster than in Israel itself!

And on the effectiveness of the UN-
to quote my essay on the matter

"a 2001 Geneva convention (boycotted by the US and Israel) concluded that Israel?s presence continually constitutes a war crime, and a vetoed UN resolution (by USA, all other 4 security council members were in favour) asserts the rights of those under ?colonial and racist regimes? to ?struggle toward self-determination and receive support?

Israel is proven to be a racist regime- To quote me again- (i quoted someone else first, believe me ;))
“Within the internationally recognised Israeli state, there are a subclass of 850,000 ?Israeli Arabs?, who constitute 18% of its population. Many live in refugee camps throughout the state. They are labelled ?Isareli Arabs? here only for convenience , though it is acknowledged that Israel does not, will not offer these people the same rights and opportunities as Jewish citizens. These people have ?dual marginality? meaning that they are mistrusted by both Israelis and Palestinians alike, who are unsure of their status and allegiance. Non-Jewish Israelis are routinely discriminated against, to clearly show that they are unwelcome guests in Israel, they may not live or work in 92% of Israel, due to the ?1960 Basic Law: Israeli lands? or in all-Jewish cities like Karmiel, which was built on confiscated Arab land.”

any replies? (intelligent please, you can of course defend your views, but don’t just be stubborn, use reason and history)
"

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
any replies? (intelligent please, you can of course defend your views, but don’t just be stubborn, use reason and history)
"[/quote]

Danny,

I’m afraid nobody gives a shit about the chain of causality that you have so intricately traced during your studies.

Yes, shit happened. Shit always happens. Shit happening today. Shit will happen tomorrow.

Other than waiting for people in the region to decide to live in peace together, there is really very little that can be done.

Why don’t you tell us what you think should happen?

However, don’t be putting Israel into a situation where it has to sit back and allow people to conduct murderous attacks on it’s citizens.

All I see you saying is that bad stuff happened so we should now allow Islamic fanatics to convert the area into a cesspool for generations. The non-fanatic citizens need to assert themselves and change things to allow peace to develop.

What else needs to be said?

[quote]The_Rabbi wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:

I would be very interested in hearing how you understood that from those pictures.
[/quote]

Please answer my question.

When one of those shells falls on your car killing your husband, crippling your 9 year old son, leaving your two teens in intensive care and your baby badly burned, what are you supposed to understand ?


See this link for the video :
CNN.com Video

Are you going to thank God that Israelis are doing the work that you are too weak to do ? Or are you going to blame Israel?

Israel has the right for self-defense. But I feel very strongly that this umpteenth war is just not going to solve anything.

This war is just fostering more hate and is widely welcomed by Al Jazeera and Co who are using it to spew out more hate.

For the moment, the Lebanese government is too weak to oppose itself to Hezbollah or Syria.

Before the start of the war, they were still trying to get some sort of stability.

Do you not remember that their prime minister was assassinated last year.

Syria is still very influent over there and is very much a part of the problem.

You do realize that many Lebanese would have a brother or maybe someone they know that is a member of Hezbollah.

To oppose themselves to Hezbollah would mean ANOTHER long civil war.

I feel that this would be a very hard decision to take.

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
When one of those shells falls on your car killing your husband, crippling your 9 year old son, leaving your two teens in intensive care and your baby badly burned, what are you supposed to understand ?[/quote]

If you are the unlucky recipient of such a shell, do you really think you’d have any of this baloney on your mind?

What are you trying to suggest with your very strange connection of dots?

[quote]The_Rabbi wrote:

What don’t you guys get about Hezbollah and Hamas? They want to destroy Israel. End of sentence. No amount of Land that Israel has given up and no amount of negotiations has changed that. What makes you think further negotiations will?

[/quote]

Do you remember that just before Gilad Shalit was kidnapped Hamas was trying to find a way to recognize Israel without looking weak ?

I think we missed out on something important.

Peace in the middle east will NOT come before the end of Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
You do realize that many Lebanese would have a brother or maybe someone they know that is a member of Hezbollah.

To oppose themselves to Hezbollah would mean ANOTHER long civil war.

I feel that this would be a very hard decision to take.[/quote]

What you are describing is that many people in Lebanon hate Israel enough to condone terrorism by either joining Hezbollah or supporting others who have joined Hezbollah.

Those people have brought all of this upon themselves by conducting terrorism… the people you are describing are not the innocent civilians who get to complain about this war.

Once again the media over dramatizes and uses this as a way to attack the Israelis. Show me an article about the Israelis from CNN on the same topic with the same depth and a video. I would really like to see it. I read the article and watched the movie. More unborn babies in US die in more horrible deaths this way than are being killed in LEbanon and Israel.

The media over dramatizes it and tries to make everyone feel sorry and get emotional. Bullshit. America is so pussified. You guys gotta learn that in war this happens and you shouldn’t get so surprised and emotional and boo hoo. You gotta suck it up and MOVE ON.