[quote]Sloth wrote:
I wonder how much of a discount it is.[/quote]
40%. It is based on a reverse of that whole “40 Acres and a mule” thing. You don’t get the mule, but you get prime rib almost half off.
Bah. I gotta take some things back and get my discount.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting. Do you think that the higher prices that minorities have to pay are a result of racism/discrimination or people’s attempts to ( unfairly) go after custonmers with little economic power? Are the retailers trying to take advantage of the minorities?
No, let me ask you…do you think there are no retailers who take advantage of the situation? I think I have explained my position better than I even needed to.
You jump in at the end of a thread several pages long with, “Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting.” Is it interesting? Is it really?
Would you like to open a shop in am area where violence and the destruction of property is the norm?
Sure, as long as I’m not personally working in the place if you don’t mind a cynical awnsers, and if the consumers are used to slightly higher prices due to having a higher risk of merchandise, eployee’s health and willingness to work, etc from crime. And if the profx is attempting to say that people want to take advantage of black people because they are weaker economically it is only fair to bring up other reasons why the retailers might be demanding higher prices, and I’m waiting for an awnser but I probably won’t get it.
That’s because I don’t respect you, not because of any fear of answering you.[/quote]
Well, you gave me an awnser alluding to what you beleive about this whole thing earlier but you’re now backing out of it b/c of a lack of respect on your part so you obviously wanted to discuss this at some point but now you are apparantly having second thoughts on this discussion. Having it both ways works for me as well.
And btw, not even Al Sharpton has expounded on this kooky theory of people taking advantage of urban blacks but that Louis Farrakan guy who you have apparantly been listening to, has said this a few times. Anyway my eyes are rolling at this thread and youre not going to respond so I’ll say my goodbye from here.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Of course you don’t. Are you done now?[/quote]
I suppose so. It was senseless of me to expect a civilized conversation from you where you actually address the reasoning behind the stances you take.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Of course you don’t. Are you done now?
I suppose so. It was senseless of me to expect a civilized conversation from you where you actually address the reasoning behind the stances you take.[/quote]
If you have read this thread and STILL think I have not explained my reasoning behind the stances I take, it is you who can’t read.
Oh, and that white guy’s post, the one who lives in Asia, is still waiting for you all to respond to it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you really believe this there is no point in further discussion. If you truly believe business owners would never take advantage of their target patrons (as if they are above this type of thing), you simply don’t live in reality with the rest of us.
No one has said that actions don’t have a basis in economics as it has already been stated many times that no one in this day and age could get away with BLATANT RACISM. That doesn’t change who is largely affected by these practices. It also doesn’t change the fact that SYSTEMIC RACISM exists as a result of many practices that could also be explained as geographic or economic concerns.
Just like in that post by the white guy in Asia, I am still waiting on you all to find any and all reasons besides the fact that he is white for that to occur.
For any of you to ignore his post as if this discussion is only based in America shows you all are grasping for straws.[/quote]
Allow me to make one point of distinction. On the individual level I know people will discriminate against certain differences, either perceived or real. But on a larger, collective level, it goes against everything we understand about human nature. I look at instances in civilization where trade actually brings people together. Look at Amsterdam as an example of a very (classical) liberal city of industry. It is one of the least racist places I have ever been. In fact many cosmopolitan areas of the US happen because there is vast amount of trade. This does not mean racism is non-existent in those areas.
Individuals do discriminate but business as a whole would cease to exist if this were the collective norm. I do not believe in collective behavior, as indeed, this phenomenon defies all logic. We are individuals and act as individuals and that is the only possibility for any action.
I cannot answer the question as to why a white guy in Asia may have received the treatment he did. To be true to my analytic nature I would employ the principle of charity and consider the following arguments (in no particular order):
- Racism
- They think he has a weird odor
- They find him offensive to their culture
- They find him ugly
- Asians are mean
- We misinterpret the meaning of their actions
- They are unaware their actions are wrong and thus don’t know he is hurt by them.
etc.
Of course, this can only be valid if you give merit to the the idea of collective action.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
BB,
You are, without a doubt, one of the folks I most respect here. In this discussion, as in others, I find your comments to be interesting, incisive and well-thought-out.
As a white guy who’s lived in an Asian country for more than a decade, though, I have to say that it may be nigh impossible for you to understand what Prof X is describing unless you’ve spent considerable time as a member of a racial minority.
Try as one might to de-emphasize it, the racial factor is just always there if you’re one of the “different” people.
Anyway, great discussion by both of you guys…[/quote]
Thanks Chushin,
In many ways your post illustrates my point. It’s a subjective feeling - you perceive yourself to be a minority and that perception affects how you take things. In any particular case in which you perceive you’re discriminated against, it may or may not actually be caused by racism. But because it’s such an obvious difference, and because humans already naturally categorize into “us” and “them” groups, the cause you assign is racism. [Side digression: I am speculating, but I can imagine a very useful evolutionary adaptation would be to perceive your differences from a group and to make one wary of being alone in a group of “them” - but this doesn’t mean there’s a causal relationship to between the difference and any real or perceived slight].
I agree with you that race is there - it’s inherently there, inherent to our perceptions. But I don’t think that is the outcome we should be trying to achieve, and I think “celebrating our differences” merely exacerbates those differences. People already have a tendency to segregate themselves by race ( Schelling's Spatial Proximity Model of Segregation Revisited by Romans Pancs, Nicolaas J. Vriend :: SSRN ), and not for racist reasons; why choose policies that encourage such separations?
People on a team often look past superficial differences to focus on being members of the team; or if not “look past” at least temporarily forget. I’m told by my friends in the Marines that the “unit, core, God, country” ladder of loyalty taught to Marines is very real - at least during the time people are serving, and is still very strong after active service is over. It’s been argued by numerous people that the greatest force of integration that happened to this country was people of different races serving together in WWII (though that didn’t help the Japanese Americans much - not surprising, given how we defined the enemy at the time). My position is that we should emphasize a common “American” identity, de-emphasize differences, and it would at least help. Again, it’s the old concept of the “Great American Melting Pot” as opposed to the “Salad Bowl” - and the melting pot is better.
And I’m not just speculating about the negative effects of constantly focusing on and harping on racial differences - the law of unintended consequences often comes into play with these types of things. Case in point: http://www.margaretsoltan.com/?p=3414
You wrote this earlier:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The notion that a business owner would take advantage of the race of certain customers is very self-defeating [/quote]
To which I responded:
You are now writing this:
It seems to be you who can’t see past race in this specific scenario. Do you think any gas stations take any advantage at all of their customers? Do you understand that regulations are in place (others would know more specifically what these regulations are) to prevent price gouging but that it still occurs? Has business ceased to exist? That means business owners do sometimes take advantage of their patrons, correct?
If this occurred in greater numbers in minority neighborhoods, are you saying you can not see any systemic racism involved in that action?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
tedro wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Of course you don’t. Are you done now?
I suppose so. It was senseless of me to expect a civilized conversation from you where you actually address the reasoning behind the stances you take.
If you have read this thread and STILL think I have not explained my reasoning behind the stances I take, it is you who can’t read.
[/quote]
First, you failed to give one reason as to how race trumps economic factors in the case of price disparities.
Second, and I was called out on this one many times, you have not answered how you are affected by your race TODAY. Not growing up, not in the movies you used to watch, but today. 2008. You gave a couple stories about people not expecting you to be a doctor, but that was about it. So, how often does Dr. Professor X think about his race? Why is this and how does it affect him?
[quote]tedro wrote:
Professor X wrote:
tedro wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Of course you don’t. Are you done now?
I suppose so. It was senseless of me to expect a civilized conversation from you where you actually address the reasoning behind the stances you take.
If you have read this thread and STILL think I have not explained my reasoning behind the stances I take, it is you who can’t read.
First, you failed to give one reason as to how race trumps economic factors in the case of price disparities.
Second, and I was called out on this one many times, you have not answered how you are affected by your race TODAY. Not growing up, not in the movies you used to watch, but today. 2008. You gave a couple stories about people not expecting you to be a doctor, but that was about it. So, how often does Dr. Professor X think about his race? Why is this and how does it affect him?[/quote]
You expect for me to sit here and type out SEVERAL instances of racism, why? So you all can tell me it is NOT racism?
Are you new here? Do you fucking realize how often this topic has come up in the past? Go find those old threads and read about my past experiences.
You are obviously one of the new guys yet you act like everyone has to cater to your own cluelessness.
The guys I took the time to respond to have been debating issues on this forum for YEARS.
I think of race as many times as it presents itself as an obstacle to me. That may be once a month or twice in one day.
I can’t even believe what went on in your head to think that I should be writing an autobiography of several racist acts I have experienced. Where should we start, kid…elementary school? How far back should I go.
You can expect that book in stores in a few months when I get done listing it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You expect for me to sit here and type out SEVERAL instances of racism, why? So you all can tell me it is NOT racism?
[/quote]
Actually I simply wanted to see where your point of view comes from. You claim that you have to experience these things to know about them, so I thought I would ask you about them.
New to the site and reading the forums? No. New to posting? Yes, for the most part.
If you feel the need to join a discussion, you should be willing to debate the topic at hand and not just defer to previous posts that may be years old. I realize you had a nice debate with BB, but there is much more to this topic than has been discussed, but has not been addressed by you.
[quote]
The guys I took the time to respond to have been debating issues on this forum for YEARS.
I think of race as many times as it presents itself as an obstacle to me. That may be once a month or twice in one day.
I can’t even believe what went on in your head to think that I should be writing an autobiography of several racist acts I have experienced. Where should we start, kid…elementary school? How far back should I go.
You can expect that book in stores in a few months when I get done listing it.[/quote]
I’ll keep an eye out for it.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Actually I simply wanted to see where your point of view comes from. You claim that you have to experience these things to know about them, so I thought I would ask you about them.
[/quote]
Are you ok? No head injuries? If I give an account and you all spend pages telling me how this is not racism, what insanity has you believing the course of action would be to…list more acts?
You just wanted to see your log in name on screen, huh?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You wrote this earlier:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The notion that a business owner would take advantage of the race of certain customers is very self-defeating
To which I responded:
If you really believe this there is no point in further discussion. If you truly believe business owners would never take advantage of their target patrons (as if they are above this type of thing), you simply don’t live in reality with the rest of us.
You are now writing this:
Individuals do discriminate but business as a whole would cease to exist if this were the collective norm.
It seems to be you who can’t see past race in this specific scenario. Do you think any gas stations take any advantage at all of their customers? Do you understand that regulations are in place (others would know more specifically what these regulations are) to prevent price gouging but that it still occurs? Has business ceased to exist? That means business owners do sometimes take advantage of their patrons, correct?
If this occurred in greater numbers in minority neighborhoods, are you saying you can not see any systemic racism involved in that action?
[/quote]
Yes, in very general terms I concede that people discriminate in this way but I cannot in good conscious explain the phenomenon you are describing as racism. Neither could I describe it as systemic. Sure, racism exists, but to say that black frequented businesses, for example, collectively charge their customers more because of their race defies all common sense. Not only that, I would have to know the motivations of every business owner to be able to answer that question.
The only way a business could take advantage of customers this way on such a large scale would be if customers were forced to shop at these places. If white people frequent these same stores because they happen to live in the neighborhood but get charged the same prices is it still considered racism or is it just good, old-fashioned price gouging?
I still say it’s economics…and the good news is that voting with dollars is more just than voting by ballot.
Exactly. In a competitive environment the more legit businesses that put at a higher priority making profits than sticking it to the black man would charge prices lower ( if dumbassX’s theory was correct), in fact low enough to still earn a profit, and if his theory is correct, then there should be quite a bit of room for prices to drop.
The profit-oriented businesses would charge lower price b/c they aren’t racist ( LOL) and steal market share from the racist businesses which must basically be EVERY BUSINESS, b/c dumbassX says that this is a general trait of society. Except…we have not seen any businesses that have been able to do this so something must be wrong with X’s theory.
X must have been listening to Louis Farakkan for all of this. Remember when Farakan ranted about the Koreans for taking advantage of blacks with their corner stores? Farakan b!tched about the jews too. Now X is laying the blame on the whites. Well X, the white man is always trying to stick it to you black guys huh?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Are you ok? No head injuries? If I give an account and you all spend pages telling me how this is not racism, what insanity has you believing the course of action would be to…list more acts?
You just wanted to see your log in name on screen, huh?[/quote]
Maybe I missed something, but I only saw you give one example. While it is of course possible that this lady asked the question because of your race, there are other explanations that you must admit are fully plausible.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Are you ok? No head injuries? If I give an account and you all spend pages telling me how this is not racism, what insanity has you believing the course of action would be to…list more acts?
You just wanted to see your log in name on screen, huh?
Maybe I missed something, but I only saw you give one example. While it is of course possible that this lady asked the question because of your race, there are other explanations that you must admit are fully plausible.
[/quote]
Yet you don’t think you will try to find other explanations for ANY example I give?
Are you really this dull or are you doing this on purpose?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yet you don’t think you will try to find other explanations for ANY example I give?
Are you really this dull or are you doing this on purpose?[/quote]
You bet I will try, that is the point of the discussion. That does not mean that you cannot convince me otherwise, however. Contrary to your opinion of me, I am willing to consider others point of view.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Yet you don’t think you will try to find other explanations for ANY example I give?
Are you really this dull or are you doing this on purpose?
You bet I will try, that is the point of the discussion. That does not mean that you cannot convince me otherwise, however. Contrary to your opinion of me, I am willing to consider others point of view.[/quote]
Wow. Deep down, I am applauding.
You will have to wait for the book to come out, however.
Don’t worry, you people get 40% off.