Thinking About Your Race?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]Professor X wrote:
To be fair, we should start asking the white guy in the Asian country whether he dresses just like the other Asians…or…or maybe he is just really muscular…or…or maybe it is all in his head and he was TAUGHT to see racism and we have to tell him how to think since he is clearly inferior in mentality than those of us who see no “Asian racism”.
[/quote]

Lol, ok. but kinda, not what I meant…

By the way, as one of the few white guys who lived in a black community(East Flatbush, Brooklyn) for 5 years I can say that it was great. Never had any problems, rent was cheap and, cause it’s like a welfare project, you don’t pay for electricity or gas. I always got attention(duh), people were good, and there were almost no shootings. Though the culture differences due to segregations, considering it’s all one big city, are tremendous. I know it’ll get better in my lifetime, but not as much as it could’ve been.

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This is getting out of hand, so I am going to post something we can all agree on…these are funny as hell.

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and

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The bottom pic reminds of something I’ve always wondered about. What’s with the stereotype of blacks and fried chicken and watermelon? Having grown up in the south I can tell you fried chicken and watermelon is popular, regarless of race. I grew up on fried chicken, greens, watermelon, okra, cornbread, black eyed peas, etc. That’s just good ole’ fashioned southern dining, white or black. Again, as southern born white male, I’ve never understood why such foods are somehow considered “black” foods.

Edit: I can say this much, while growing up, I put down many a watermelon on those hot and humid florida days.

And sorry about the typing. Fighting a cold that’s making my thinking a little foggy.

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I presume the “white guy in Asia post” is this one:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
BB,

You are, without a doubt, one of the folks I most respect here. In this discussion, as in others, I find your comments to be interesting, incisive and well-thought-out.

As a white guy who’s lived in an Asian country for more than a decade, though, I have to say that it may be nigh impossible for you to understand what Prof X is describing unless you’ve spent considerable time as a member of a racial minority.

Try as one might to de-emphasize it, the racial factor is just always there if you’re one of the “different” people.

Anyway, great discussion by both of you guys…[/quote]

It’s a little vague. It does say that unless we’ve lived as a minority for decades, we can’t understand the situation properly.

Fine. That’s why we’re asking questions.

Unfortunately, it appears we can’t do that either.

So, why are we even trying to debate anything here? Whites are automatically disqualified from having an opinion because they haven’t experienced being a visible minority; and they apparently can’t ask questions or offer alternative explanations that might explain a perceived racist situation without resorting to race as the main factor.

I still don’t get how those store prices work. If a racist owner charges more because his clientele is mostly black, why are those blacks still shopping there? Are they unaware they’re being taken advantage of? Don’t they care? Aren’t there any store who are owned by blacks in black neighborhoods? Do they gouge too? Gas stations were mentioned. How does that work since generally the price is shown in 5 foot numbers visible from a mile out. In that case, every customer has a car and can go get his gas somewhere else. Do they have secret systems that spin the counters faster when blacks are fueling up? Aren’t we veering dangerously close to jlesk conspiracy theories here?

I’m not saying that racism doesn’t exist in 2008. I simply don’t see how stores in poor neighborhoods charging higher prices is an example of it and not a reflection that doing business in a tough neighborhood involves higher costs which are passed on to the customers.

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[quote]Chushin wrote:

…

Look, I’m not (and I don’t think Prof is) saying that EVERYONE is BLATENTLY racist toward me (or him). And sure, there have been lots of times that I jumped to the wrong conclusion. But there are many more times that I’m right, and living with such behavior on a daily basis can’t help but make you really sensitive to it.

Do people here really believe that it’s possible to NOT let race influence one’s behavior?

Personally I find the Prof’s approach and attitudes to be more than reasonable…

Signed,

That white guy in Asia :))
[/quote]

If that’s the position then I think we’re not so far apart. I don’t think anyone is saying discrimination isn’t caused by racism.

For me, it comes down to whether racism should be the default assumed cause for any and all perceived discrimination. In the U.S., I thing, and hope, the answer is no. I can’t speak to Japan (which, in any case, is a much more racially homogeneous society than the U.S.).

The answer to your middle paragraph: Yes. And it would be great if we weren’t subjected to policies and social mores that highlight the differences and exacerbate the problem.

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Chushin wrote:

…

Look, I’m not (and I don’t think Prof is) saying that EVERYONE is BLATENTLY racist toward me (or him). And sure, there have been lots of times that I jumped to the wrong conclusion. But there are many more times that I’m right, and living with such behavior on a daily basis can’t help but make you really sensitive to it.

Do people here really believe that it’s possible to NOT let race influence one’s behavior?

Personally I find the Prof’s approach and attitudes to be more than reasonable…

Signed,

That white guy in Asia :))

If that’s the position then I think we’re not so far apart. I don’t think anyone is saying discrimination isn’t caused by racism.

For me, it comes down to whether racism should be the default assumed cause for any and all perceived discrimination. In the U.S., I thing, and hope, the answer is no. I can’t speak to Japan (which, in any case, is a much more racially homogeneous society than the U.S.).

The answer to your middle paragraph: Yes. And it would be great if we weren’t subjected to policies and social mores that highlight the differences and exacerbate the problem.

[/quote]

The problem needs highlights. You all act like it isn’t there otherwise.

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[quote]Chushin wrote:

In sum, I tend to believe that, as is usually the case, both sides need to take a step closer to the other’s perspective. [/quote]

Gasp, how dare you suggest such a thing? This is only a “black problem” and white people shouldn’t have to think about it at all!

Gawd, the audacity to imply that those in majority have some responsibility at all! Just who do you think you are, young man!?

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[quote]Chushin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Chushin wrote:

In sum, I tend to believe that, as is usually the case, both sides need to take a step closer to the other’s perspective.

Gasp, how dare you suggest such a thing? This is only a “black problem” and white people shouldn’t have to think about it at all!

Gawd, the audacity to imply that those in majority have some responsibility at all! Just who do you think you are, young man!?

Shit, Prof, at first glance, I thought you were pissed about what I wrote…LOL!

Again, reading through what you’ve written about your experiences, I’d like to compliment you (directly this time) on the way you seem to deal with this problem. It’d be a whole hell of a lot harder to put up with some of the stuff I get if I were in my own country. But you seem fairly “un-jaded.”

And who you calling “young man”, son? :slight_smile:

PS As a white guy who has, on ocassion, been racist in things I’ve said or done toward black people, I hope you know that most of “us” have no ill-intent; it’s often just unexamined garbage yet to be cleaned out of our psyches…[/quote]

I do find it funny how you can write similar info as myself yet this thread quieted down significantly once you started posting again.

Why no questions for you or people asking about other experiences?

No one seems to be trying to pick apart your experience in an attempt to claim you simply imagined any bias.

I mean, the differences between us include location and…

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:

Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting. Do you think that the higher prices that minorities have to pay are a result of racism/discrimination or people’s attempts to ( unfairly) go after custonmers with little economic power? Are the retailers trying to take advantage of the minorities?

No, let me ask you…do you think there are no retailers who take advantage of the situation? I think I have explained my position better than I even needed to.

You jump in at the end of a thread several pages long with, “Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting.” Is it interesting? Is it really?

Would you like to open a shop in am area where violence and the destruction of property is the norm?

Sure, as long as I’m not personally working in the place if you don’t mind a cynical awnsers, and if the consumers are used to slightly higher prices due to having a higher risk of merchandise, eployee’s health and willingness to work, etc from crime. And if the profx is attempting to say that people want to take advantage of black people because they are weaker economically it is only fair to bring up other reasons why the retailers might be demanding higher prices, and I’m waiting for an awnser but I probably won’t get it.

That’s because I don’t respect you, not because of any fear of answering you.[/quote]

Wow. The bachelor of the decade doesn’t respect me. Oh well.

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[quote]

Chushin wrote:

In sum, I tend to believe that, as is usually the case, both sides need to take a step closer to the other’s perspective.

Professor X wrote:
Gasp, how dare you suggest such a thing? This is only a “black problem” and white people shouldn’t have to think about it at all!

Gawd, the audacity to imply that those in majority have some responsibility at all! Just who do you think you are, young man!?

Chushin wrote:
Shit, Prof, at first glance, I thought you were pissed about what I wrote…LOL!

Again, reading through what you’ve written about your experiences, I’d like to compliment you (directly this time) on the way you seem to deal with this problem. It’d be a whole hell of a lot harder to put up with some of the stuff I get if I were in my own country. But you seem fairly “un-jaded.”

And who you calling “young man”, son? :slight_smile:

PS As a white guy who has, on ocassion, been racist in things I’ve said or done toward black people, I hope you know that most of “us” have no ill-intent; it’s often just unexamined garbage yet to be cleaned out of our psyches…

Professor X wrote:
I do find it funny how you can write similar info as myself yet this thread quieted down significantly once you started posting again.

Why no questions for you or people asking about other experiences?

No one seems to be trying to pick apart your experience in an attempt to claim you simply imagined any bias.

I mean, the differences between us include location and…[/quote]

Just for the record, I pointed out that Chushin’s experiences were subjective and the same causation issues existed in both of your cases.

Also, I want to clarify something that I hope was clear before - I’m not claiming race isn’t an issue in American society. I’m claiming we exacerbate the problem through our own policies, particularly in education.

That said, I’m likely culturally biased in that I am more inclined to attribute racism to Japanese society generally than to American society generally because of what I’ve heard and read about Japanese society compared to what I’ve witnessed living in American society. That’s my own subjective filter.

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

That said, I’m likely culturally biased in that I am more inclined to attribute racism to Japanese society generally than to American society generally because of what I’ve heard and read about Japanese society compared to what I’ve witnessed living in American society. That’s my own subjective filter.

[/quote]

Interesting. Your bias against Japan based on perceived racism is more concrete based on what you’ve heard and read…yet all that you have heard and read about racism in this country is dismissed for the most part aside from some general assessment that it exists but isn’t that much of an issue. In both cases, you have experienced very little (if any) of this as a minority yourself, yet you feel like those who have in this country somehow recognize it with LESS efficiency and accuracy than yourself.

All signs point to cultural arrogance.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

That said, I’m likely culturally biased in that I am more inclined to attribute racism to Japanese society generally than to American society generally because of what I’ve heard and read about Japanese society compared to what I’ve witnessed living in American society. That’s my own subjective filter.

Interesting. Your bias against Japan based on perceived racism is more concrete based on what you’ve heard and read…yet all that you have heard and read about racism in this country is dismissed for the most part aside from some general assessment that it exists but isn’t that much of an issue. In both cases, you have experienced very little (if any) of this as a minority yourself, yet you feel like those who have in this country somehow recognize it with LESS efficiency and accuracy than yourself.

All signs point to cultural arrogance.[/quote]

Congnitive dissonance. Most succintly put when someone (I think Mel Brooks) said “Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die.”

He’ll explain away the bad examples in his culture, but doesn’t feel the need to for their culture. Its ok for them to be bad, but not him.

Which isnt even to say that being white and living in a racist pro-white society makes someone racist, but its a concept most dont really consider. They assume that, if they do live in a pro-white racist society, they must be racist themselves. So, as a defense, they find ways to reason that they can’t live in such a society.

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

That said, I’m likely culturally biased in that I am more inclined to attribute racism to Japanese society generally than to American society generally because of what I’ve heard and read about Japanese society compared to what I’ve witnessed living in American society. That’s my own subjective filter.

Interesting. Your bias against Japan based on perceived racism is more concrete based on what you’ve heard and read…yet all that you have heard and read about racism in this country is dismissed for the most part aside from some general assessment that it exists but isn’t that much of an issue. In both cases, you have experienced very little (if any) of this as a minority yourself, yet you feel like those who have in this country somehow recognize it with LESS efficiency and accuracy than yourself.

All signs point to cultural arrogance.

Congnitive dissonance. Most succintly put when someone (I think Mel Brooks) said “Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die.”

He’ll explain away the bad examples in his culture, but doesn’t feel the need to for their culture. Its ok for them to be bad, but not him.

Which isnt even to say that being white and living in a racist pro-white society makes someone racist, but its a concept most dont really consider. They assume that, if they do live in a pro-white racist society, they must be racist themselves. So, as a defense, they find ways to reason that they can’t live in such a society.

[/quote]

The question is, will those in majority ever own up to it or will this forever be some issue that involves those in majority claiming there is no significant problem simply because no one is treating them like minorities.

In this thread alone what you wrote has been seen several times over. It should be shining brighter than ever now that another Caucasian who is a minority in his country has said the same things I have…yet no one is taking him to task on it ANYWHERE NEAR the level I have been in this thread.

If that doesn’t prove a point in itself, nothing will.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
The question is, will those in majority ever own up to it or will this forever be some issue that involves those in majority claiming there is no significant problem simply because no one is treating them like minorities.

In this thread alone what you wrote has been seen several times over. It should be shining brighter than ever now that another Caucasian who is a minority in his country has said the same things I have…yet no one is taking him to task on it ANYWHERE NEAR the level I have been in this thread.

If that doesn’t prove a point in itself, nothing will.[/quote]

Using a phrase like “own up to it” tends to imply that they already understand the issue but simply refuse to admit it. Its an understandable position, considering how obvious the examples here are. But, for most, I dont think thats the case.

I think the first two steps are getting people to understand that race is a myth. To actually question the foundation that says that blacks and whites and asians and arabs and hispanics are any more different than people with blue eyes or green eyes or red hair or blonde hair.

Secondly, to make a distinction between systemic racial oppression and personal racist beliefs. People often use the umbrella term “racism” to mean both, and I think this causes confusion. That is, if they are one and the same, then either every white person in america is racist, or america is not a racist society. Within this thinking, as I said before, whites are resistant to seeing america as racist because it conflicts with them seeing themselves as personally not racist.