[quote]Professor X wrote:
BB, like you. I really do. But what the hell was this?[/quote]
Good - the feeling is mutual. This is an example of two people writing past one another…
I’m not saying you’ve never had a negative experience based on your race. What I am saying is that it’s highly likely that there are some negative experiences that you’ve had that you attributed to race even though there were other possible causes, and one of the prime reasons for that is our cultural focus on racial difference and divisiveness.
That blacks should just “shut up and deal with it” and that, since its not impossible (but much more difficult) for them to improve their lives, nothing should be done about the racism in America?
[/quote]
And here you go putting words into my mouth. This is a complete twist of what I said, and I said solutions, not shutting the fuck up and dealing with it, nor that nothing should be done about racism.
Again PC is prevailing the discussion, and any deviation is quickly met with… well everyone gets the idea.
To eliminate racism, you need to actually eliminate racism. Not do what has been done for decades and actually cause racism to fester. Not to actually promote it.
We can’t eliminate racism any more than we can eliminate fear, anger, or envy. We should be cautious to create yet another “War on X.” Those wars are everlasting, create resentment, and introduce more and more government intrusion.
Yes, we should be aware of it, but that’s about all we should expect. If there were more moralists and traditionalists, I’d bet we’d see less racists, but never none. Instead of demanding the removal of insensitive radio jockeys, demand the letting go of entertainers who belittle women, preach violence, glorify promiscuity, and talk up the drug culture. Reintroduce rational discrimination, otherwise known as morality.
Because I’m a lawyer and I can’t help myself. I thought doctors were supposed to be nicer and more pragmatic - my faith is shattered…[/quote]
Nice and pragmatic? I’m a doctor who is extremely straight forward, blunt and who has a sense of humor that allows me to get away with it most social situations. Please pick your shattered faith off the floor before someone stabs themselves with it.
I think this was your main point?
[quote]
It’s divisive on its face because of how human beings are innately wired psychologically - we divide and classify into groups, and even if we know those groups are random, we attribute good characteristics to “our” groups and negative characteristics to “other” groups. It has absolutely nothing to do with underrepresentation in this country (whatever that means - I actually dislike that term because it implies some proper level of representation, like a quota - too many and the group is “overrepresented,” too few and it’s “underrepresented.”).[/quote]
To this, I have to restrain myself from asking where your head is at. In this country, you didn’t notice every toy (or at least most) looked like you. Why? Because “white” was the standard. If you picked a lead for a role in a movie, the first thought was a white guy. It is only recently that black actors can simply play “a man” instead of “a black man”. I was thrilled to see Will Smith in that “I Am Legend” role and even happier to find that he was accepted as a doctor dealing with that situation and his race never came up. They didn’t even throw in any mannerisms to typecast him. That movie wouldn’t have been made even 15 years ago and you know it…not with him in that role.
You didn’t notice that many of us grew up in the early 80’s and late 70’s wondering why few items looked like us. How do you fit snugly into a culture that leaves you out of it? It would be blind to look at things ONLY through the eyes of 2007 as if 2007 doesn’t only exist because of every year before it.
With that in mind, it makes no sense to pretend as if you don’t understand UNDER-REPRESENTATION when it comes to racial groups. It wasn’t an issue with you because YOU WERE THE STANDARD. the rest of us simply grew up needing to MAKE our own place in the world.
It is like you are upset because there were celebrations for other races while you were growing up. I think that says more about you and much less about other races.
[quote]
I don’t recall anything really about Barbies and Cabbage Patch Kids - not my cup of tea, and my little sister is 8 years younger than I am so she missed the Cabbage Patch phenomenon - I don’t recall she had any black Care Bears, but it seemed as if there sure were a lot of blue, pink and green ones. And some blue Smurfs. I guess small blue folks with tails were happy to have a role model…[/quote]
This was cute. Again we get a response as if you can’t understand how massively white culture pervaded every aspect of this country until the 60’s. You didn’t recognize issues with race because for you there were none. An image of someone like you was everywhere. My only question is how someone can go through life and not understand this…or protest every time someone points it out.
If the goal is to truly move forward, you can’t act as if my perspective is irrelevant. The sad part is, that is exactly what you are doing while claiming that noticing race at all (or even discussing when race is a liability) should be avoided. You only think this way because you always were the standard…and changing that takes a lot more than accepting the situation as it stands.
I wish they would have made a black one of these Sons of Bitches. Once I saw “Child’s Play” this little bastard went into the attic, but if he were black I don’t think I would have been as worried since Chucky was white. They probably would have called the black doll “my shorty” instead of “my buddy.”
It’s divisive on its face because of how human beings are innately wired psychologically - we divide and classify into groups, and even if we know those groups are random, we attribute good characteristics to “our” groups and negative characteristics to “other” groups. It has absolutely nothing to do with underrepresentation in this country (whatever that means - I actually dislike that term because it implies some proper level of representation, like a quota - too many and the group is “overrepresented,” too few and it’s “underrepresented.”).
Professor X wrote:
To this, I have to restrain myself from asking where your head is at. In this country, you didn’t notice every toy (or at least most) looked like you. Why? Because “white” was the standard. If you picked a lead for a role in a movie, the first thought was a white guy. It is only recently that black actors can simply play “a man” instead of “a black man”. I was thrilled to see Will Smith in that “I Am Legend” role and even happier to find that he was accepted as a doctor dealing with that situation and his race never came up. They didn’t even throw in any mannerisms to typecast him. That movie wouldn’t have been made even 15 years ago and you know it…not with him in that role.[/quote]
Of course, you also had quite a few movies from the 70s that went out of their way to emphasize the blackness of the roles - some Blaxploitation pics, and some Black Power pics (like Melvin van Peebles movie Sweet Sweetback’s Badass Song ( Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song (1971) - IMDb ).
I’m happy for Will Smith too - he’s a good actor.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You didn’t notice that many of us grew up in the early 80’s and late 70’s wondering why few items looked like us. How do you fit snugly into a culture that leaves you out of it? It would be blind to look at things ONLY through the eyes of 2007 as if 2007 doesn’t only exist because of every year before it.
With that in mind, it makes no sense to pretend as if you don’t understand UNDER-REPRESENTATION when it comes to racial groups. It wasn’t an issue with you because YOU WERE THE STANDARD. the rest of us simply grew up needing to MAKE our own place in the world.[/quote]
No, I didn’t - except when it was pointed out (which was often), I didn’t think about it. That’s what I said above right before I said I could see how it would be harder for a minority to avoid thinking about it, particularly when it’s brought up all the time.
I’m not disputing what you felt. I’m disputing the possible causes.
Also, I didn’t say I didn’t understand the concept of underrepresentation - I said I didn’t like it. The reasons I don’t like it are that it implies a segregation into groups and some sort of uniformity in choices, preferences and opinions among the members of those groups.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is like you are upset because there were celebrations for other races while you were growing up. I think that says more about you and much less about other races.[/quote]
That’s not what I said. I said that I didn’t think that government-sponsored events should promote the differences among us. And I explained why I thought that as well: because it encourages the impulse, already innate in humans, to categorize into “us” and “them” - and to make those celebrated differences into a “them” category. We should be encouraging the “us” understanding - the great American melting pot, as it were.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t recall anything really about Barbies and Cabbage Patch Kids - not my cup of tea, and my little sister is 8 years younger than I am so she missed the Cabbage Patch phenomenon - I don’t recall she had any black Care Bears, but it seemed as if there sure were a lot of blue, pink and green ones. And some blue Smurfs. I guess small blue folks with tails were happy to have a role model…
Professor X wrote:
This was cute. Again we get a response as if you can’t understand how massively white culture pervaded every aspect of this country until the 60’s. You didn’t recognize issues with race because for you there were none. An image of someone like you was everywhere. My only question is how someone can go through life and not understand this…or protest every time someone points it out.
If the goal is to truly move forward, you can’t act as if my perspective is irrelevant. The sad part is, that is exactly what you are doing while claiming that noticing race at all (or even discussing when race is a liability) should be avoided. You only think this way because you always were the standard…and changing that takes a lot more than accepting the situation as it stands.[/quote]
Really, from the cultural perspective of what people our age and younger have experienced growing up, what happened before the 60s is largely irrelevant except when we studied history. History is important, but it’s not relevant to the particular issue of what we experience in the culture of a given time. When I watched the Bears win the Super Bowl in 1985 when I was 11 I wasn’t experiencing it through the prism of the American Professional Football Association inaugural season in 1920, or the first Super Bowl in 1967, even though if it weren’t for those events my experience in 1985 would have been very different.
I’m not against black dolls, Asian dolls, Hispanic dolls - if there’s a market for it and that’s what people want to buy, so be it. Again, if private groups want to celebrate their differences and unique cultures, that’s their prerogative. I do find it hard to believe they didn’t exist - I even do remember a black “My Buddy” doll that my friend’s little brother had - but I really wasn’t paying close attention at the time…
Also, I’m not saying your perspective is irrelevant. My point is that the constant focus on race and racial differences influenced the formation of your perspective. Part of the perspective your referencing is the attribution of racism as the cause for certain things you perceived in life. And my position is that if we want to move forward, we need to remove or reduce the underlying emphasis on race and differences that causes that attribution - in other words, stop doing things that encourage people to automatically attribute racism as the cause for any discrimination they happen to suffer.
Finally, for clarity, I’m not saying that all discussion of race should be avoided - particularly if there are instances in which there is an established racism issue (versus something attributed to racism as the default). I’m not saying that there is no racism that ever occurs in modern America - though I am saying it’s very likely over attributed as a cause for perceived negative acts or facts because of our constant focus on race.
What I am saying is that the government should promote inclusiveness and an American identity, not promote our differences. Thus I am also saying that having the government promote “celebrate our diversity” sorts of things is a bad idea.
That blacks should just “shut up and deal with it” and that, since its not impossible (but much more difficult) for them to improve their lives, nothing should be done about the racism in America?
And here you go putting words into my mouth. This is a complete twist of what I said, and I said solutions, not shutting the fuck up and dealing with it, nor that nothing should be done about racism.
Again PC is prevailing the discussion, and any deviation is quickly met with… well everyone gets the idea.
To eliminate racism, you need to actually eliminate racism. Not do what has been done for decades and actually cause racism to fester. Not to actually promote it.[/quote]
Your only solution so far is that people should stop “bitching and whining” and overcome hardships they face. Sounds much to me like “shut up and deal with it”.
Also, you didnt answer my question. What solutions are you talking about? Eliminating racism how?
No, I don’t know it actually. Just off the top of my head - and I’m no movie buff - Sidney Poitier ( ) had quite a few starring roles in which his race wasn’t relevant unless you made it relevant; some other examples: Morgan Freeman (
Of course, you also had quite a few movies from the 70s that went out of their way to emphasize the blackness of the roles - some Blaxploitation pics, and some Black Power pics (like Melvin van Peebles movie Sweet Sweetback’s Badass Song ( ).
I’m happy for Will Smith too - he’s a good actor.
[/quote]
Well, I am a movie buff and while I don’t know everything about every movie Poitier was in, I can tell you that the other actors you mentioned had their way paved by the man. It isn’t like there was an endless supply of black actors who weren’t typecast. Unfortunately, that is exactly what you seem to be implying…that because Poitier had a lead role in a movie that blacks were not seen as “back up talent” everywhere else in film.
Historically, and even now, in majority if a part is written for a movie, it is assumed the actor is white unless some other nationality is specifically written in. I am not sure if you actually believe otherwise or not…but if you do, then I refuse to argue reality with you. I imagine that things will eventually change (possibly within the next generation).
I had an incident yesterday where I was asked if I was a doctor. This one struck me as even more strange than usual because this was after I had just finished treating the 5 kids of the woman who asked me this question. You know, that whole “I just injected your kids with drugs and wrote you a prescription but I must still be an assistant” type of logic.
To her credit, she did come up to me later with the following, “I didn’t mean anything negative when I asked if you were a doctor earlier. You are just very good with my kids and usually they won’t even talk to the person treating them so I assumed that you weren’t a doctor. They usually walk out afraid…but they’re giggling…and they joked around with you. I just wanted to say thank you.”
You, of course, will take one of the following courses of action:
You will assume that this is “bitching and whining” by even implying that race may be a factor.
you will get defensive and try to explain it in some way that makes it seem as if I were white that the exact same thing would have happened.
You will try to inform me of how delusional I am as if people are questioning you about what you do for a living…while you are at work doing it. Then you will tell me I was taught about race so much that I look for it everywhere.
The truth is, this isn’t “bitching and moaning”. I debated whether to even write about it because I don’t dwell on things like this. I take some of it as a compliment and throw the rest out of my mind quicker than it can take up residence. I am certainly not a person who “sits around and complains”. My only question for you is, do you or do you not believe it is possible in that world of yours…THE SLIGHTEST FUCKING POSSIBILITY…that this woman would not have said this if I were white?
How often are you questioned about what you do?
For the record, the woman’s kids were great people. The oldest will probably be in the NBA one day. I do not think this woman was racist in any way. I wonder if you will try to make it seem as if I am saying she was. I also wonder if you know the difference between someone who is racist…and someone who lives in a society where enough inequality exists that it is still rare to see certain individuals in certain roles.
Your only solution so far is that people should stop “bitching and whining” and overcome hardships they face. Sounds much to me like “shut up and deal with it”.[/quote]
Your right, people should keep bitching and whining, and do nothing else. Complain, but do nothing. Nada. Zip.
What you need to understand is what I mean by bitching and whining. Earlier it was posted that a grocery store was selling crappy apples at high prices, oh my god, thats racism. By selling crappy apples, that makes you a racist.
Now I just imagine a newbie posting on another forum that he can’t eat good, and build muscle because his local grocery store has crappy apples. I am fairly certain that Professor X would be there ripping him a new asshole, as much as you can though a web post that is.
But add the word racism, and suddenly things are different. That kid is suddenly incapable of anything because of that damn racist apple dealer. (Hey look, a wolf.)
What I am saying is simple, and a basic tenant of my life. And I will not suddenly change it because somebody brings up the race card. If my principles are not acceptable in certain situations, why should they be acceptable in any situation?
My belief is don’t settle, you deserve better. Don’t make excuses, and don’t let anyone or anything get in your way. (In a respectable way that is.)
Prof. X did just mention his childhood and wondering why the toys didn’t look like him. (I had Rockem Sockem robots and wondered the same thing.) That comment was legitimate, and not used as an excuse not to succeed.
The last thing people need is another excuse not to succeed. I see it all the time. I can’t because ________!(Fill in the blank.) I listened to a guy try to tell me he can’t get anywhere because he is white. Another told me he couldn’t because he had an accent. (They worked at the same place too.)
Actually I will say I misspoke there. I literally wrote that and posted it in less then a minute, and had to rush off.
It is really impossible to eliminate racism, but we can reduce it, and should not be finding ways to promote it, as is too often done.
There is no way to cover this in a forum post, and as I said before you will not accept what I bring up.
But still. The problem is within many �??low class�?? communities, not just black communities. The whole idea of not being able to get anywhere, and the feeling of being trapped is a major problem. Also many of these people are hooked on the �??system�??. Where does money come from? You get a check from the government. You are rewarded for not working, and actually punished for working.
I think the term is called the cliff. That point where if your income goes up too much, you lose your benefits. Hey, why not cut a few hours out of work and keep those benefits? We need to get rid of this whole thought process. We have spent trillions on social programs, and have we cured poverty?
It may seem to help in the short run, but in the long run it just makes things worse by getting people dependent on it. Some learn to �??work the system�??.
The same with Affirmative Action. Anything that makes life easier for a person is bad for that person. If you learn you do not have to try as hard, will you? We lift weights to get stronger, so is it a good idea to have the government doing some of the lifting for you? Is it good for anyone to do the lifting for you?
I know some people complain that Affirmative Action will hurt their ability to get a job, but I don’t believe it. I do believe that it hurts blacks, and businesses though.
Back to the communities, education really needs to be overhauled. People need to graduate able to handle their finances. To understand how money works. Too many kids think selling drugs is the way to make it, and never once realize they could do the same thing by buying 24 packs of Coke or Pepsi.
Then crime also needs to be dealt with. Initially the communities will be upset at what actions need to be taken, then when things start working, they will change their minds.
Again this is just a minor portion of a much bigger list, and even what I posted is just sound bites, each of which would take too long to explain in detail, so you will find it easy to tear apart what I have said here. Anyway the biggest problem will actually be in changing how people think. Getting people to actually care about fixing their communities instead of just existing in them.
I had an incident yesterday where I was asked if I was a doctor. This one struck me as even more strange than usual because this was after I had just finished treating the 5 kids of the woman who asked me this question. You know, that whole “I just injected your kids with drugs and wrote you a prescription but I must still be an assistant” type of logic.
To her credit, she did come up to me later with the following, “I didn’t mean anything negative when I asked if you were a doctor earlier. You are just very good with my kids and usually they won’t even talk to the person treating them so I assumed that you weren’t a doctor. They usually walk out afraid…but they’re giggling…and they joked around with you. I just wanted to say thank you.”
You, of course, will take one of the following courses of action:
You will assume that this is “bitching and whining” by even implying that race may be a factor.
you will get defensive and try to explain it in some way that makes it seem as if I were white that the exact same thing would have happened.
You will try to inform me of how delusional I am as if people are questioning you about what you do for a living…while you are at work doing it. Then you will tell me I was taught about race so much that I look for it everywhere.
The truth is, this isn’t “bitching and moaning”. I debated whether to even write about it because I don’t dwell on things like this. I take some of it as a compliment and throw the rest out of my mind quicker than it can take up residence. I am certainly not a person who “sits around and complains”. My only question for you is, do you or do you not believe it is possible in that world of yours…THE SLIGHTEST FUCKING POSSIBILITY…that this woman would not have said this if I were white?[/quote]
You just illustrated my overall point quite nicely with this anecdote.
You’re a big dude, jock-type. You may look on the youngish side. You like to joke around and not maintain the serious demeanor that this woman was expecting.
I’m perfectly willing to accept the fact that there is the possibility that this incident was about race - are you willing to accept the possibility that it wasn’t? I don’t need to “explain it in some way that makes it seem as if I were white that the exact same thing would have happened” unless you’re assuming causation, which you really can’t do - well you can of course, but it’s far from proved, and really even far from the likeliest scenario.
If it wasn’t racism, how should you treat it? How should it affect your outlook?
Murky causation - automatic attribution to racism? Maybe that would be less likely if we weren’t always focusing on our differences.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
How often are you questioned about what you do?[/quote]
It would be exceedingly difficult for that to ever happen to me at work - I sit in an office with my name on the door, so anyone coming to look for me finds me there - and generally when I meet people in a business situation for meetings they know who I am before we start (my photo is on our internal page and I can’t imagine anyone wouldn’t check it before a meeting). Really, I’ve never heard of something like that happening to a lawyer at a firm or in-house, irrespective of race or sex. Maybe it happens at parties or something…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
For the record, the woman’s kids were great people. The oldest will probably be in the NBA one day. I do not think this woman was racist in any way. I wonder if you will try to make it seem as if I am saying she was. I also wonder if you know the difference between someone who is racist…and someone who lives in a society where enough inequality exists that it is still rare to see certain individuals in certain roles.[/quote]
I wonder if you’re willing to look at the totality of the circumstances and decide that racism (societal or individual) might not have been the cause?
Professor X wrote:
How often are you questioned about what you do?
It would be exceedingly difficult for that to ever happen to me at work - I sit in an office with my name on the door, so anyone coming to look for me finds me there - and generally when I meet people in a business situation for meetings they know who I am before we start (my photo is on our internal page and I can’t imagine anyone wouldn’t check it before a meeting). Really, I’ve never heard of something like that happening to a lawyer at a firm or in-house, irrespective of race or sex. Maybe it happens at parties or something…
Professor X wrote:
For the record, the woman’s kids were great people. The oldest will probably be in the NBA one day. I do not think this woman was racist in any way. I wonder if you will try to make it seem as if I am saying she was. I also wonder if you know the difference between someone who is racist…and someone who lives in a society where enough inequality exists that it is still rare to see certain individuals in certain roles.
I wonder if you’re willing to look at the totality of the circumstances and decide that racism (societal or individual) might not have been the cause?[/quote]
My point is, this isn’t some one time incidence. I simply only pulled this one time to the forefront because it happened so recently. My name is on a plaque and a copy of my license. I even got this at times in the military and my name was also on the door of my treatment room and office. Just like this woman (who actually saw me treat at least one of her kids) somehow arrived at the conclusion that I was still not a doctor, even more will ignore that name tag and sign.
As hard as it is for you to believe that someone would ignore your name on the door and assume you were a “legal assistant” is exactly how difficult it is for me to believe you can’t see this as a race issue. I have no doubt that it is simply assumed that you are a professional while at work and not simply an assistant. Also, there are other docs who lift weights (obviously not many). I work with one who I went school with. He is white and weighs 230lbs with what can’t be more than 8% body fat. The fact that he NEVER (as in not once) gets this should be a fairly revealing clue…that you will no doubt try to explain away.
You also seemed to come to the conclusion that I was somehow acting less than professionally when this couldn’t be farther from the truth. She simply saw that her kids were relaxed. We weren’t exactly throwing a party in the hallway when this comment was made.
Is it possible that this does not involve race? Yes, anything is “possible”. How probable do you think it really is?
Your only solution so far is that people should stop “bitching and whining” and overcome hardships they face. Sounds much to me like “shut up and deal with it”.
Your right, people should keep bitching and whining, and do nothing else. Complain, but do nothing. Nada. Zip.
[/quote]
You’re resorting to the classic “all or nothing” fallacy: if I dont agree with you, then nothing should be done… if theres a possibility that black people can make the extra effort that they should have to (simply because they are black) then there is no problem and nothing should be done about it… a victim of racism is either totally helpless and has no options or its not really a problem.
So, despite the fact that stores in black neighborhoods have lower quality foods at higher costs, your solution is… that nothing should be done about it. Ok, right. Thats totally fair. Well, I take that back; something should be done about it… by the black people, of course.
I wonder if the people responsible for the situation (those controlling the quality of the food and the prices)are mostly white or black. I wonder how many of them grew up in that type of neighborhood and understood how many people didn’t have the means to choose to go to a better grocery store. I wonder how many of them would consider it unethical exploitation to set higher prices in an area where poor people were only given on reasonable choice for places to shop. That doing that, like many other aspects of their lives, keeps them poor (not being able to afford a car which means they have to shop at the higher priced store which makes it harder to save up for a car). And then I wonder why some people reject the term “systemic racism”.
Of course, its not impossible for them to shop elsewhere… just much more difficult. But, according to your all or nothing logic, thats ok, and nothing should be done about it.
More “all or nothing”. Either your principles are universally acceptable 100% of the time or never at all.
I’m not even, in this situation, saying that your principles are wrong, the problem I have is that your solution is that it rests solely on black people to fix the problems they have that are perpetuated by white people, and that, since those problems created aren’t totally insurmountable, they arent real problems and any attention brought to them is just ‘bitching and moaning’.
I know this is a strange concept that doesn’t fit into the “all or nothing” logic, but here’s my take: Black people should work to improve their personal situations but also deserve to be listened to on racial issues and white people should do what they can to solve those problems.
That philosophy works well in many situations, but in this case its a way for white people to say “its not my problem, why should I do anything about it?”.
Was that Rockem Sockem Robots line supposed to be some dumb ignorant “white guy who doesn’t get it” joke? I really hope not.
Hey sweet, more all or nothing: either something is a legitimate reason all the time or it is always just an excuse.
You’re really good at blaming it all on blacks: they just make excuses, they don’t work hard enough at overcoming their situation, they just focus too much on racism, they just bitch and moan and play the race card.
I knew as soon as I read this that one of them would be “eliminate affirmative action”. btw.
I would bet my life that you’ve never tried to support a family while on welfare: if you had, you’d want to laugh at and punch anyone who called welfare “a reward for not working”.
So the government (read: rich white people) make a system where poor people become dependant on the government and remain poor. Who should fix this problem? Clearly, the poor people.
Because welfare is really a “reward” and people choose to stay on it instead of taking a minimum wage job, not because staying on it means healthcare for their children and the ability to better provide for them, but because their lazy and want that “reward” for not working.
The above was sarcastic. btw.
And most of them just get trapped by the fucking system, then they have people who have no idea what its like preach to them that its their fault and they should work harder and make more sacrifices to get out of that trap. Fuck, its frustrating to even listen to.
Saw that one coming.
So, not only should the solution to the problems come from black people, its morally right that systemic racism against them not be changed because making life easier for a person is bad for them.
You’re really out of touch with reality if you think welfare or affirmative action are just ways of “making it easier” on black people so they “dont have to try as hard”.
What hurts blacks is the stigma that affirmative action is going to put “Ray Ray tha ill rappa nigga” on the space shuttle instead of the white guy who graduated MIT with honors.
White people who have always had the (often unspoken) advantage in the job market are suddenly terrified that a vastly underqualified black person is going to “play the race card” and “ride the black ticket” to getting a job they rightly deserve.
I believe in what affirmative action attempts to do, though I dont know if it goes about it in the best way; what I do know is that pretending that whites dont have an unfair advantage is ridiculous.
Soda? You really think that people in situations where selling drugs seems like a viable option could make the same money buying and reselling soda?
Oh, sure, if you calculate the profit off of each can, and totally ignore the rest of the universe, I guess they make about as much sense.
Wow. So, let me get this straight: black people are responsible for fixing the systemic racism in america, black people focus on racism too much and thats why they dont succeed, black people bitch and moan and place the race card, anything doen to make things easier for them is bad for them, and now your “solutions” for crime in black neighborhoods will upset the communities.
So life just gets harder for those black people… but its ok, because its for their own good, and if they would just see that they’d agree. And they shouldn’t feel like thats racist that such “actions” are taken mostly in black communities, whereas the vast majority of white people never have to deal with those “actions”, but, hey, thats just them looking for racism where there is none.
HOW can you not see the racism in that??
Well you’re right about that.
[quote]
Anyway the biggest problem will actually be in changing how people think. Getting people to actually care about fixing their communities instead of just existing in them.[/quote]
Right, more of the same: The problem is that black people dont care about their communities.
Classic.
This is ridiculous: Your whole response is “here is what black people should do”, and your strawman response to any opposition is going to be “Well fine if they shouldnt do that they should do nothing and get paid a million dollars to sit on their asses!” Your all or nothing circular logic will continue to be that either you’re right or there are no answers at all, that either the solution has to come entirely from blacks or blacks should do absolutely nothing.
[quote]
Professor X wrote:
How often are you questioned about what you do?
BostonBarrister wrote:
It would be exceedingly difficult for that to ever happen to me at work - I sit in an office with my name on the door, so anyone coming to look for me finds me there - and generally when I meet people in a business situation for meetings they know who I am before we start (my photo is on our internal page and I can’t imagine anyone wouldn’t check it before a meeting). Really, I’ve never heard of something like that happening to a lawyer at a firm or in-house, irrespective of race or sex. Maybe it happens at parties or something…
Professor X wrote:
For the record, the woman’s kids were great people. The oldest will probably be in the NBA one day. I do not think this woman was racist in any way. I wonder if you will try to make it seem as if I am saying she was. I also wonder if you know the difference between someone who is racist…and someone who lives in a society where enough inequality exists that it is still rare to see certain individuals in certain roles.
BostonBarrister wrote:
I wonder if you’re willing to look at the totality of the circumstances and decide that racism (societal or individual) might not have been the cause?
Professor X wrote:
My point is, this isn’t some one time incidence. I simply only pulled this one time to the forefront because it happened so recently. My name is on a plaque and a copy of my license. I even got this at times in the military and my name was also on the door of my treatment room and office. Just like this woman (who actually saw me treat at least one of her kids) somehow arrived at the conclusion that I was still not a doctor, even more will ignore that name tag and sign.
As hard as it is for you to believe that someone would ignore your name on the door and assume you were a “legal assistant” is exactly how difficult it is for me to believe you can’t see this as a race issue. I have no doubt that it is simply assumed that you are a professional while at work and not simply an assistant. Also, there are other docs who lift weights (obviously not many). I work with one who I went school with. He is white and weighs 230lbs with what can’t be more than 8% body fat. The fact that he NEVER (as in not once) gets this should be a fairly revealing clue…that you will no doubt try to explain away.[/quote]
Our situations are still fundamentally different in that I don’t have random people coming and waiting in my office on a regular basis - as I indicated, I’ve never heard rumors of this happening to any lawyers with whom I’ve worked at a firm or in-house. We sit in offices and people come looking for us - unless we’re going to meetings, in which case they’re expecting us and generally know who we are ahead of time. Also, in the firm situation (or even in-house), it would be pretty hard to miss the hierarchy of who was deferring to whom on one side of a table. Maybe a general practitioner who runs his own shop and tends to get walk-in clients, or a military lawyer, might have a different experience.
Probably the closest experience I’ve had is sitting in on meetings with people with whom I haven’t worked before, particularly on Fridays when I wear jeans and Hawaiian shirts to work - I have experienced the impression some people wonder who I am and what I’m doing there, but as soon as the introductions occur I have ceased to have that impression (Hawaiian shirts are actually kind of dressy at my company, particularly in the summer and on Fridays…).
And of course, I don’t know why I got that perception. I don’t even know if it was real or if the fact of the introduction just changed what I thought people should be thinking or were likely thinking. I never asked - that was just my subjective interpretation of what they were thinking.
It’s interesting if your friend has never had that problem - I’ll assume for the sake of this conversation that you’ve asked him whether it has happened to him and aren’t going on the fact he’s never mentioned it happening. In any event though, what happens to you and what happens to him aren’t directly comparable unless you’re dealing with the exact same patient. The patients are different, and almost certainly have different backgrounds and expectations that would lead to their individual impressions. And you and your friend are different in other ways than simply race, I would assume.
Might the cause of these perceptions have been racism? Yeah - without knowing more, in each case it might have been racism - and in each case it might not have been.
This goes back to my point - in our culture, racism seems to be the baseline assumption and people take the position that it needs to be disproved as a cause for each real and perceived slight against a minority. I’m saying 1) that’s a negative thing, for members of racial and cultural majorities and minorities; 2) it’s not really a valid assumption in situations in which the causation is murky, which is a large majority of situations (it’s one possible cause among many possible causes); and 3) that this assumption is encouraged and perpetuated by a focus on racial differences.
[quote]
Professor X wrote:
You also seemed to come to the conclusion that I was somehow acting less than professionally when this couldn’t be farther from the truth. She simply saw that her kids were relaxed. We weren’t exactly throwing a party in the hallway when this comment was made.
Is it possible that this does not involve race? Yes, anything is “possible”. How probable do you think it really is?[/quote]
For the record, I didn’t conclude anything about your professionalism. I suggested that the woman’s expectations of how a doctor behaved might have been different than how you behaved with her kids. Her expectations don’t set any standards for professionalism - and actually, if you work with kids, I hope you can relate to them, make them laugh and set them at ease. I’m sure your professionalism is beyond question.
My point was that if she was expecting one mannerism because of her previous interactions with doctors (probably older, more jaded doctors), and you behaved differently, that would be a possible and logical reason for her misimpression.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
The allocation of foods space, arrangement, and selection in a grocery store is determined by consumption.
Having built a couple of refrigetation systems in both Costcos and Save-A-Lots, I can tell you that the demgraphic targets of those stores are on opposite ends of the spectrum, as are their allocations of space, arrangement, and selection.
The esteemed speaker wasn’t saying anything new there. It seems he was actualy creating a fallacious link between race and availability of fresh foods. The ADA has investigated this pretty thoroughly and determined that is has more to to with social class than race. People of a lower social class aren’t spending their money on relatively expensive but not as filling foods, regardless of nutritional value. This has also contributed to the phenomenon of obese malnoursihment.
You all are speaking just like people who don’t actually live in these areas and never have. The food in most of these establishments isn’t just less fresh. Very often, it even COSTS MUCH MORE. I know for a fact that I wouldn’t pick up fresh beef off of Martin Luther King street in South Houston. I know this because it will not only be less fresh than at the Randall’s by the Galleria (even cheaper with a membership card), but it will often be more expensive. That goes for many other items like milk or even Pampers.
While you may argue that it has to do with social class, you would have to be pretty blind to act as if there aren’t drastically larger numbers of minorities being effected by it.
It makes little sense for someone who experiences none of this to speak about what people in those situations should do or how they should act.[/quote]
Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting. Do you think that the higher prices that minorities have to pay are a result of racism/discrimination or people’s attempts to ( unfairly) go after custonmers with little economic power? Are the retailers trying to take advantage of the minorities?
Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting. Do you think that the higher prices that minorities have to pay are a result of racism/discrimination or people’s attempts to ( unfairly) go after custonmers with little economic power? Are the retailers trying to take advantage of the minorities?[/quote]
No, let me ask you…do you think there are no retailers who take advantage of the situation? I think I have explained my position better than I even needed to.
You jump in at the end of a thread several pages long with, “Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting.” Is it interesting? Is it really?
The concept of race is fallacious. There is no such thing as race. Genes are expressed in a continuum and not discretely therefore there is no way to clearly distinguish groups of people by genetics.
Africans from eastern and western Africa are as different from each other as northern and southern Europeans are from each other. There is no white race. There is no black race. The concpet of racial purity is nonsense as even within isolated groups genes eventually mutate and express different traits among the population.
The concept of racial superiority is likewise an idiotic concept. Which animal is more superior: a lion or a tiger? Each species is suited to survival in its own environment or we would not even be able to question their existence in the first place. Species either adapt or fail to reproduce. Eventually those adaptations will express themselves genetically.
The sad part of all this is that racism does exist even though race itself is a fallacious concept.
Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting. Do you think that the higher prices that minorities have to pay are a result of racism/discrimination or people’s attempts to ( unfairly) go after custonmers with little economic power? Are the retailers trying to take advantage of the minorities?
No, let me ask you…do you think there are no retailers who take advantage of the situation? I think I have explained my position better than I even needed to.
You jump in at the end of a thread several pages long with, “Well I see that you have some more comments about race, interesting.” Is it interesting? Is it really?[/quote]
Yes it is interesting, which is exactly why I’ve commented.
Secondly, as far as I’ve seen you’ve only implied that retailers take advantage of blacks not said so directly leaving your thoughts pretty vague. As I said, I’m unsure whether or not you do think so, but if you do beleive that retailers take advantage of blacks you might also want to look for other reasons that blacks might have to pay higher prices beside racism.
Are the communities you refer to part of high-crime areas? If so these shop owners would probably be experiencing greater losses from robberies and shoplifting. Secondly it amazes me that you have completely ignored basic economics. If one retailer charges prices higher than normal, this would present an opportunity for other retailers to discount prices and steal market share but apparantly this concept goes over your head a bit so again forgive me.
