Thinking About Your Race?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
tedro…what is your point?? What is your agenda?? Obviously you have one since you seem to forget that regardless of the references to Dr.Troutman and his speech…that CC’s main agenda was the discussion of HOW OFTEN DO YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR RACE??? AND WHY IS THAT?? Why is it that you’re the only one making an argument outside what was intended??
[/quote]
Go back and read some of the arguements. I am hardly the only making an argument outside of what was “intended”.

If you had read my posts, you would know that my point is that the differences that we see are not due to race. We see these differences all the time throughout different social classes, and by and large it is because of a lack of responsibility.

Exactly, and why? That is the part that CC wants to skip, he just wants to know how often people think about their race and not address any of the issues that cause this. Issues such as Health Care inequality and price disparities.

In my current situation, seeing as I live in a small community where about 97% of the people are white, I rarely think about race. What I do think about frequently though, is the liberal/socialist agenda and the ways they tend to use blacks to help their cause.

Attending a high school where only 50% of the students where white, you can bet that I thought about my race everyday. Why? Because it was a shame to have to put up with some of the things that african and mexican americans could say and get away with, students AND teachers, but when a white student does the same thing they are reprimanded for being racially intolerant.

While in college, it got very old watching the campus cater to minority groups like the BSU and seeing them use even the smallest issue to cry out Racism! and Prejudice!

Mostly though, I am bothered by the lack of self-responsibility that so many people show, and how it is affecting our country. This is not at all limited to race, it just so happens that it is frequently seen in many minority groups, but this is a result of social status and not race.

62

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It makes little sense for someone who experiences none of this to speak about what people in those situations should do or how they should act.[/quote]

Perhaps someone has made this point elsewhere in the thread, and I’ve missed it. If so, I will make it again.

It makes a great deal of sense for someone who experiences none of this to speak about it if that someone is also expected to foot the bill.

Further, sitting around crying about victim-hood accomplishes what, exactly?

Anyway, you probably are right. Rather than expressing an opinion of my own, I should probably acknowledge my own ignorance and ask a series of questions to the real expert(s). And then point out all the contradictions in the answers. Socrates did that. But then, he was put to death, wasn’t he?

63

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Not as hard as understanding the topic of this thread.[/quote]

Simple answer. Collectively, no one can answer why one individual may think about their race and one may not.

At best, one can only answer it from an individual perspective. Race has nothing to do with why we behave the way we do.

My own experience: I rarely think about it.

How often do you think about your height?

64

Big Boss, I wanted to add one more thing.

Yes, I do have many hang-ups about affirmative action, which is reverse racism. These hang-ups are not only because these things oppress white people, but they are also counterproductive to the well-being of minorities.

The very idea of affirmative action today is racist in itself. I could take the time to expain this to you, but instead I will refer you to (gasp) a prominent black figure who is very well versed on subjects such as this.

http://www.alankeyes.com/issues_list.php#affirmative_action

Here is another one that discusses my stance pretty accurately, it also includes a short discussion on Bill Cosby, who is another black man that I have a great deal of respect for. I find it very ironic how often he is chastised inside the black community.

http://www.nationalreview.com/clegg/clegg200406030846.asp

65

I can see why minorities in America might think about their race more often than white people - particularly when the entire educational system from k - graduate school teaches people that race is an important factor that must be considered in all contexts. It’s kind of hard to escape, actually.

I can’t even count the number of classes I was subjected to during my education that hammered home the point that America was a racist society and that minorities suffered from racism - not just historically but every hour, every day, suffering at the hands of the omnipotent “racist society.” Who was taking those actions was never exactly specified (though I’m sure they were rich, white, Republican males…).

Given that, and given the number of things in life that occur with murky-at-best causation, it’s not too hard to guess why minorities might attribute race as a factor to each injustice or hardship they face in life. “Market forces? No, there’s got to be some racism in there somewhere…” Whether it is, or is not, isn’t proved by the fact minorities consider their race more often; they’re only doing as they’ve been taught to do. I could walk out of those classes and away from the incessant braying about how race was a stigma and made a person a target of racism and just go on my way - I imagine it would be harder to get rid of the gnawing doubt (or the agreement that the teachers were correct) if I were a minority.

66

[quote]tedro wrote:

If you had read my posts, you would know that my point is that the differences that we see are not due to race. We see these differences all the time throughout different social classes, and by and large it is because of a lack of responsibility.
[/quote]

Well,I agree with it being more about social classes and such…but race does factor in discriminatory ways…but not mostly because of racism…just those issues that might relate to a particular race…as you touched on earlier. If anything,there is discrimination because of social class. Racism happens more on the individual level.

I totally agree with that last sentence…some issues are more about politics than race…sad when people don’t see that.

Well…there’s just so broad of a spectrum when it comes to everybody’s experiences with race and discrimination…as evident by your experiences. I attended a high school that was 70% white in a small East TX town. Racism against black students was evident…as well as hispanics. But its always weird when regardless of the racism…those that were star athletes(who mostly were black) were always slapped on the wrist for things(as well as those white students who’s parents were such and such). It was seen as reverse racism…but it wasn’t about race…it was about winning football games. It still wasn’t right though.

Through some of my other experiences,I’ve seen (white)people do things out of pity because you’re a “minority” and they assume that you’re automatically at a disadvantage because of that. It is not necessary and I think thats were a lot of reverse racism is breeding from…along with politicians and those who want to fulfill there own agendas.

Like you said…lack of self-responsibility is a problem. I hate that some people even go as far as expecting you to “act” a certain way…or have certain beliefs because of your race. This was always self-evident throughout school when other black students would relate the fact that I had good grades…and advanced classes with “trying to be white.” Hell…my first name has been ridiculed for being too white…“that’s a white person’s name”…sad. I apologize for my parents not giving me a name that resembles household cleaner,a flavor of ice cream,or an ingredient in a spermicidal condom. Sigh Anyways…working hard to get what you want has never dissappointed…regardless of whatever race you belong to.

Anyways…its obvious…even by your own experience…that when you’re not the majority and there’s even a small chance of discrimination…its very natural to think about your race. And its sad that past racism and discrimination has led to this. But in this day and age…discrimination is not always racism…whether its reverse,sideways,or up your ass.

67

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Well,I agree with it being more about social classes and such…but race does factor in discriminatory ways…but not mostly because of racism…just those issues that might relate to a particular race…as you touched on earlier. If anything,there is discrimination because of social class. Racism happens more on the individual level.
[/quote]
I can completely agree with this, and I touched on it earlier. Racism does occur on an individual level, and you are naive if you don’t believe it always will, to some extent.

Do you ever read any of Jason Whitlock’s stuff? He is a sportswriter for the KC Star, Fox Sports, and previously ESPN. He has discussed this topic at length, especially during the whole Don Imus and Michael Vick things. His opinion is that many black people, such as him, Bill Cosby, and apparently yourself are shunned by most of the black community for turning away from the “hip-hop” lifestyle and creating a better life for themselves. You should check out some of his articles sometime. I believe they are all archived at the Star’s website.

[quote]
Anyways…its obvious…even by your own experience…that when you’re not the majority and there’s even a small chance of discrimination…its very natural to think about your race. And its sad that past racism and discrimination has led to this. But in this day and age…discrimination is not always racism…whether its reverse,sideways,or up your ass.[/quote]

I think BB just covered this very well. There is nothing wrong with thinking about one’s race, and remembering your heritage and culture. More emphasis needs to be placed on the heritage however, and not the color of the skin. As an example, it is completely plausible that you and I have a much closer heritage than you and somebody like, say, Derrick Thomas, who was screwed yet again this year ;).

68

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Professor X wrote:
While you may argue that it has to do with social class, you would have to be pretty blind to act as if there aren’t drastically larger numbers of minorities being effected by it.

.

So what is Prof.?

You don’t like arguing the social aspect of it, you seem offended when it comes to the racial aspect of it, and you disregard that mistreatment of people is a basic function of the human experience.

Are we to believe that your opinion is the only one here that is valid?

[/quote]

I’m sorry, but do you even know my opinion? I don’t even understand what you are trying to say here.

Uh, a log in name that was based off of a nickname I had in college from helping people study for exams and lifting weights. What did you think “Prof.” was?

[quote]You don’t like arguing the social aspect of it, you seem offended when it comes to the racial aspect of it, and you disregard that mistreatment of people is a basic function of the human experience.
[/quote]

Hold on, I what? Where the hell did I “disregard that mistreatment of people is a basic function of the human experience”?

See, this is why you should stick with quoting and responding to exactly what I did write.

69

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I can see why minorities in America might think about their race more often than white people - particularly when the entire educational system from k - graduate school teaches people that race is an important factor that must be considered in all contexts. It’s kind of hard to escape, actually.

I can’t even count the number of classes I was subjected to during my education that hammered home the point that America was a racist society and that minorities suffered from racism - not just historically but every hour, every day, suffering at the hands of the omnipotent “racist society.” Who was taking those actions was never exactly specified (though I’m sure they were rich, white, Republican males…).

Given that, and given the number of things in life that occur with murky-at-best causation, it’s not too hard to guess why minorities might attribute race as a factor to each injustice or hardship they face in life. “Market forces? No, there’s got to be some racism in there somewhere…” Whether it is, or is not, isn’t proved by the fact minorities consider their race more often; they’re only doing as they’ve been taught to do. I could walk out of those classes and away from the incessant braying about how race was a stigma and made a person a target of racism and just go on my way - I imagine it would be harder to get rid of the gnawing doubt (or the agreement that the teachers were correct) if I were a minority.[/quote]

I don’t remember my race being hammered home at all in school. In the mostly white schools my mom kept sending me to, I don’t even remember one poster for Black History month. I just LOVE ideas that stereotype entire cultures and assume ignorance. Ideas of race are only held because we are taught this in school? What, do we fail to think for ourselves but you somehow were immune? What made you immune?

70

I guess it’s better to stereotype an entire culture and assume racism?

I said it was easier for me to ignore because I don’t choose to focus on it - and it’s less applicable to me as a white guy. Just like a constant drumbeat of stuff that is supposed to be applicable to women would be easier for me to ignore.

I grew up in the Bay Area in California, went to high school in Salt Lake City, UT, went to college in San Diego, CA, and grad school in Nashville, TN, and in each of those places I remember race being constantly brought up and focused upon - particularly in the manner I laid out in my original post. In the majority white school in Salt Lake City there were cultural celebrations for Tongans, Mexicans, black history month, Asians, etc.

And it’s not just in school - it’s the media and the culture generally. Newspapers, TV, internet boards on weightlifting sites - it’s not as if you can escape it.

Quite frankly, even the positive-focused portrayals of race don’t do anything other than call attention to differences. Please don’t try to tell me I have escaped the celebrations of diversity or endless debates about diversity in any job I’ve ever held, let alone in school. Is “celebrate our diversity” really supposed to make people think about their race differences less often?

And here’s the kicker - if you’re thinking about race all the time, are you going to be more, or less, likely to attribute any perceived discrimination you do suffer to race (irrespective of whether it was or wasn’t actually the cause)?

71

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

I guess it’s better to stereotype an entire culture and assume racism?[/quote]

Gee, if an entire culture controls and dominates pop culture, business and politics (like what sparked the Civil Rights movement), claiming THE SYSTEM is racist is how far off?

Please answer that.

[quote]
I said it was easier for me to ignore because I don’t choose to focus on it - and it’s less applicable to me as a white guy. [/quote]

I already wrote this earlier. That is why I am avoiding even responding to every single post. I have no time to waste trying to “teach” some white guys about how everyone isn’t white but since whites are still the majority, it just might help everyone else out if this fact was acknowledged because those in majority have the most effect on a system that still has remnants of racist acts, stereotypes and impressions.

No, I don’t have time for that at all. The only reason I am even responding to you is because I actually believe you think a little before you type.

[quote]

I grew up in the Bay Area in California, went to high school in Salt Lake City, UT, went to college in San Diego, CA, and grad school in Nashville, TN, and in each of those places I remember race being constantly brought up and focused upon - particularly in the manner I laid out in my original post. In the majority white school in Salt Lake City there were cultural celebrations for Tongans, Mexicans, black history month, Asians, etc. [/quote]

This is a bad thing?

Please answer this.

[quote]
And it’s not just in school - it’s the media and the culture generally. Newspapers, TV, internet boards on weightlifting sites - it’s not as if you can escape it.[/quote]

Excuse me…but BULLSHIT. You and me are about 2-3 years apart. I grew up not even seeing a black Barbie doll until the mid-80’s. Black cabbage patch kids were a “new thing” considering a well known doll company made all nationalities of dolls and made a killing…for the first time. I find it hard to feel sorry for your non-stop barrage of race focused media…especially since I doubt it was happening anywhere near the level you claim it was.

[quote]
Quite frankly, even the positive-focused portrayals of race don’t do anything other than call attention to differences. [/quote]

Are you saying this didn’t need to happen in this country? It was ok that we had far fewer role models growing up who showed intelligence and determination? These issues were already so ingrained in a mostly white culture that the pendulum had to swing the other way for there to be any balance at all…yet you can’t see this?

What world are you living in?

Oh, wait.

[quote]
And here’s the kicker - if you’re thinking about race all the time, are you going to be more, or less, likely to attribute any perceived discrimination you do suffer to race (irrespective of whether it was or wasn’t actually the cause)?[/quote]

How about, if you experience more racism, wouldn’t race be on your mind more?

Are you really about to hold the position that every black male in the country who perceives any level of racism is doing so because he can’t think as clearly as you?

Wow…and people talk about MY ego.

72

Well, white males will become a minority eventually. Which means Republicans will no longer have much political power. Therefore, Democrats will have a constant hold on Washington. So, eventually we’ll see more wealth redistribution programs, and more diversity mandates. Government will be fully in charge of enforcing equality and we’ll all live in utopia. In the meantime, vote Obama, you’ll feel better about yourself.

I’m so going to get flamed over this.

73

A timely bit of Reasearch.

High schoolers name women, black Americans ‘most famous’

[i]Ask teenagers, and they overwhelmingly choose African-Americans and women, a study shows. It suggests that the “cultural curriculum” that most kids �?? and by extension, their parents �?? experience in school increasingly emphasizes the stories of Americans who are not necessarily dead, white or male.

Researchers gave blank paper and pencils to a diverse group of 2,000 high school juniors and seniors in all 50 states and told them: “Starting from Columbus to the present day, jot down the names of the most famous Americans in history.”[/i]

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A timely bit of Reasearch.

High schoolers name women, black Americans ‘most famous’

[i]Ask teenagers, and they overwhelmingly choose African-Americans and women, a study shows. It suggests that the “cultural curriculum” that most kids �?? and by extension, their parents �?? experience in school increasingly emphasizes the stories of Americans who are not necessarily dead, white or male.

Researchers gave blank paper and pencils to a diverse group of 2,000 high school juniors and seniors in all 50 states and told them: “Starting from Columbus to the present day, jot down the names of the most famous Americans in history.”[/i]

[/quote]

Oprah Winfrey and Marylin Monroe beat out Thomas Edison. What a shame. Big Surprise at number 1.

75

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

And here’s the kicker - if you’re thinking about race all the time, are you going to be more, or less, likely to attribute any perceived discrimination you do suffer to race (irrespective of whether it was or wasn’t actually the cause)?[/quote]

I think this is the crux of the problem - when you find racism where it doesn’t exist, you begin to create a “boy cries wolf” problem that begins to diminish the bona fide problems of real racism - and thus distract from solving the real problems.

Obsessing over racial differences has the perverse effect of making racism worse because we spend so much time dealing with the dubious claims at the expense of the real ones. And then, because of the trivialization, the classic maxim plays out: “if everything is racist, then nothing is racist”.

It’s a step back in the drive to beat back racism.

76

[quote]tedro wrote:
Do you ever read any of Jason Whitlock’s stuff? He is a sportswriter for the KC Star, Fox Sports, and previously ESPN. He has discussed this topic at length, especially during the whole Don Imus and Michael Vick things. His opinion is that many black people, such as him, Bill Cosby, and apparently yourself are shunned by most of the black community for turning away from the “hip-hop” lifestyle and creating a better life for themselves. You should check out some of his articles sometime. I believe they are all archived at the Star’s website.
[/quote]

OH YES…lol. He kills me with some of the stuff he writes. I don’t agree with everything he says…but yet sometimes I don’t know if I do or don’t. Regardless of my own experiences,I wouldn’t say I’ve been “shunned” by black community. In my adult years,I’ve never had my “blackness” questioned. People just assume that I come from some high/middle class black family because of the way I carry myself and the things I’ve accomplished. Sad that people thing that way…but thats one of the many after effects of years of discrimination and oppression. And yes,I’ve received that from white people as well.

My family(mom,2 brothers)was poor as fuck…at least after my dad smoked away a good life for us. He was in the Air Force…and later worked for Tandy Computers(Radio Shack) in Ft.Worth. Drugs ruined that. So I guess I’ve been on both sides of the “social/economical fence.” Anyways,I could talk all day/night about me,my background,experiences with race,etc. Unless you are actually interested in hearing that.

[quote]
Anyways…its obvious…even by your own experience…that when you’re not the majority and there’s even a small chance of discrimination…its very natural to think about your race. And its sad that past racism and discrimination has led to this. But in this day and age…discrimination is not always racism…whether its reverse,sideways,or up your ass.

More emphasis needs to be placed on the heritage however, and not the color of the skin. As an example, it is completely plausible that you and I have a much closer heritage than you and somebody like, say, Derrick Thomas, who was screwed yet again this year ;).[/quote]

Funny that you mention sharing heritage. I have been working on my family genealogy for about a year…and have found out that at one point my great-great grandfather was passing as a white man before he was married. Doesn’t suprise me considering my great grandfather and his siblings had reddish hair,freckles,and greenish hazel eyes…my family’s last name is O’Quinn. Sounds a wee bit Irish to me(don’t know if you are or not). The who’s and how’s I have not found out…yet. And yes…Derrick Thomas was screwed,again.

77

I used to be a smoker. I’ve quit a few times. When you’re a smoker, you have trouble seeing how anyone lives without them. When you aren’t, you have troulbe seeing why anyone bothers with them at all.

The same way black people dont see how whites can miss the racism in America, and whites honestly don’t see it and feel like they’re being tricked.

People have trouble seeing things from other peoples perspectives.

78

In the 1800’s, there was a black man who was a lawyer. He made well over $100,000 a year, and in 1800’s money. This was while slavery was still legal.

Stephen Hawking cannot wipe his own ass. And yet is the most well known physicist, and a successful actor.

I can find thousands of examples of this. People overcoming tremendous odds and becoming successful.

Then I hear all the whining.

[i]I’m fat, because of a glandular problem. And diets don’t work.

I can’t be successful because I am black.

I can’t be this or that because I am poor.[/i]

At this point all I am hearing are excuses made by whiners.

Oh no, I don’t know what it’s like to be black. Yup, and black people don’t know what its like to be white. Not as great or easy as you might think. (That damn grass being greener.)

I do know what it is like to be the outsider. I have never fit in to any group. People did not understand me, and so too often people did not like me.

When people hate you, just because you are different, is this what racism feels like? I have experienced that. Most of my grade school and high school life was like that.

Now the question is do I need to sit around and whine about all this? Does somebody need to come and fix everything for me? I say no excuses, and get on with my life!

I could list so many things that have gone wrong in my life that it would be rejected as too sad to be blues. But I am not here whining. I am saying quit your whining, bitching, and moaning.

Yes bigotry does exist, and it is not a good thing. Just don’t use it as an excuse, or a crutch, or a security blanket.

This attitude, which actually runs through most of America, and is not restricted to race, is actually one of the worst things happening to America. And some interesting statistics show the effects of this type of thinking.

It is assumed that American born white people are the most successful. Actually Whites and Blacks are less likely to be successful financially then people who have come here more recently. The shorter of a time a race has lived in America, the more likely they are to be successful, and the larger percentage of them as a group are successful.

You cannot look outside of yourself for solutions to your problems. That is truly what this discussion is about. Do you decide to take action, and make a difference yourself, or are you going to simply live your life as a victim, spending your waking hours whining, bitching, and moaning? Expecting somebody else to deal with it?

79

If I lived in India, Africa, or Japan, I’d think about my race every day, too.

I am not conscious of my race throughout a given day, except when I meet up with friends for dim sum on the occasional Sunday.

Then I am very conscious of my race, especially when the old Chinese ladies with the carts blow past us gwai lo in the “white section” and serve all the Asian tables first.

If you put a person in a situation where they are a visible minority, they will be self-conscious.

God damn those old, racist cart-ladies.

ElbowStrike

80

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Now the question is do I need to sit around and whine about all this? Does somebody need to come and fix everything for me? I say no excuses, and get on with my life!
[/quote]

Actually, if you follow threads like this enough, you notice the trend: White people claim there isn’t racism, so people who see it point out examples of it, and those who claim it doesn’t exist accuse them of “bitching and whining” or “needing somebody to come and fix it”.

I bet you would sound like you were bitching and whining if someone, during those years, said something to the effect of “Nobody at school is mean to you.” Naturally you’d reply (in an attept to get them to see that it was in fact happening) by giving examples of times you’d been mistreated. And they would tell you to stop bitching and whining.

When in reality, you weren’t bitching and whining, you were giving examples to show a point (that you were, in fact, mistreated).

Its a tough defense mechanism to work around, isn’t it? On one hand you need to prove your point with real life examples, but giving real life examples is considered pissing and moaning.