There Will Be Violence

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Hong Kong has a highly capitalistic economy. What about Canada? It’s ranked lower, so what’s your point? I’m not advocating moving to Canada…And anyways, according to a Cato report, the US government now purchases 46% of all medical care.

Edit: Oh, and that attitude “don’t let the door hit you…” is your own undoing. When the producers of wealth flee this country (some argue they’ve already exported too many jobs overseas), you can tax the few hold outs and the middle-class to death in order to support your rapidly growing population of the unemployed.[/quote]

My point is fairly simple. You advocate the “makers of wealth” leaving in protest of government involvement with our economy. You posted a list of the most free economies as destinations, but are ignoring the fact that these same countries represent the ideals that induce palpitations in all of you “patriots”

Your list was full of communists and socialists. Singapore is neither but has a huge portion of is corporations control by a State owned fund. If those things appeal to you then by all means, round up your “wealth makers” and hit the road.

When the producers of wealth flee, then others will step into their place. You will not be missed, and are kidding yourself if you think you’ll even make a ripple when leaving.

62

[quote]hedo wrote:
The Obama plan is designed to drive employees into government sponsored plans. True private plans will not exist after a few years. They may for a year or two but they will not compete against the government sponsored entities without heavy costs to the employer.

I can’t pay that and will naturally let my employees go to the government plans. In the interim it will cost me increased payments.

What will really cost me is the increased taxation to my business. I am a target of the Obama tax plan. By my calculations based on the number of people I employ, and the average wage I pay them,

Just to stay even will cost me 12 guys, assuming I can still generate the same amount of revenue with less labor, which I am doubtful of doing. It’s a variable number but that’s my B/E plus my current profit.

I don’t think he understands the number of people employed by small business around the country and screwing the owners in the name of income redistribution doesn’t just affect me.

Loss of freedoms…fairness doctrine for one. The Dems are salivating of reinstating it. Look at what the Obama campaign has done when criticized. Threats of lawsuits and investigations.

Do you think an Obama justice department will be any better? I sure don’t. Look at the Dem controlled congress. They spent more time doing show “investigations” then passing legislation. Do you think it will be any better if they have a bigger majority and control of the White House. Gun Control…kiss the second ammendment goodbye.

Say what you want about the Republicans and conservatives in general but nobody is more socialist then a liberal who is in power. Loss of freedoms will only be the start of it.
[/quote]

My dad also expressed concern over Obama’s tax plans. He is involved in a small 30man bussiness (he is one of 3 salesmen) and apparently his boss is very worried about profit should Obama’s plans be put into fact.

That’s just one example of many from around here in NY.

63

Obama will be FORCED to enact harsh measures to keep the country from disintegrating. He will have to be a modern day Octavian, simply to keep the factions from killing each other.

Once the realization hits that the same clowns who let this stuff happen so far are the same guys we expect to put everything aright, then all hell is going to break loose.

64

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
By the way…

NO one should be “happy” about the Government owning banks.

(I didn’t interpret hankr’s last EDIT as implying some kind of jubilation over the recent Government actions…)

Mufasa

If you think Obama and the dems in congress are not happy about this whole situation and aren’t viewing it as a golden opportunity for further expansion of government and self empowerment you are a very good natured, but nonetheless gullible dude my friend.

They are in an orgy of “jubilation” over this. They couldn’t have planned it better if they tried and they practically did.

They want us to just sit back, relax and let them handle everything. Power, once acquired on the hill, NEVER goes back to us. NEVER!!!

The inevitable destination at the end of this road is flat out tyranny. History is replete with examples.

Complacency allows creeping enslavement a little at a time until one day the people don’t even know at what point they lost control. We are becoming dangerously close.

Poo Poo, not here. Only paranoid unhinged fanatics believe things like that. Uh Huh. Just watch. [/quote]

No one robbed us of more liberties than W and the last eight years.

How Obama could possibly worse exceeds my brain capacity I guess.

Eventually, someone will roll this shit back, just like they did with the New Deal, just like they did with the Gramm bill that started this whole mess.

But now, i believe it’s needed. Something is needed. I do not believe this market will work itself out.

65

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Demiajax brings up an important point:

“…There will be no revolution. For one, the standard of living in this country is too high for widespread unrest. The cost is too high for most people, the benefit too low…”

Even if there was some form of “unrest”, I doubt that it would occur where most “patriots” live.

Questions (So I don’t misquote you Mike):

  1. What do you see as the nature of the Revolution? Armed and violent? Silent protest? Tax rebellion? Other?
    [/quote]

Well, before people pick up guns and hit the streets I would guess they would actually take interest in elections. They don’t even have to get off their couches to do this. I am doubtfull this will happen but if it does and people actually stop to really think about what gov’t is truely needed for and what it has become, they will gravitate towards the Libertarian Party.

The most effective revolution that could materialize is a revolution of information and interest in politics, economics, and history. You’ll know when this happens when Americans take more interest in what their money is being spent on than they do in Dancing With the Stars.

I don’t see this happening but a guy can dream. The minute the average citizen takes a real interest in Politics is the minute the party is over for both the republicans and democrats.

I would say it is someone that takes more than a casual interest in elections. Someone that understands basic economic principles, understands where gov’t is most efficient and where it is not, understands the principals that this country was founded on and why they are worth protecting.

Someone that votes based on what is best for the future of this country and not their own best interests. These people are generally not liberals.

Do you really need to ask this? Who do think is going to tax more. Who do you think is going to spend more? Who do you think is going to grow gov’t the most. Where has McCain suggested spending Billions more?

Who’s thinly desguising a welfare check for 40% of americans and and an attempt to buy votes, as a “tax credit”. Neither of these guys are close to being an exciting choice but intellegent people can clearly tell who will continue to take us in the wrong direction domestically.

I think the question becomes which will do more harm. McCain war mongering or Obama pushing us closer to socialism. Not that I am voting for him, but I beleive McCain is going to accomplish absolutely nothing, making him the better choice.

Again, do you really need to ask this. Yep, we got few kooks on both sides but do you really think McCain supporters are teaching their childeren to sing songs about him changing the world?

Has anyone compared him being a community organizer to being like jesus. Do I really need to keep going? If he is not the messiah what is he? Certainly not the most experienced. Certainly not the most accomplished.

He has done nothing to qualify for the position he seeks. Not in his public life or his private life. I don’t buy the whole change montra. If people really wanted change they would not be looking to Democrats or Republicans.

Either that or they are what we defined as a Patriot earlier and are casting their vote without any rational, educated thought as to why. Let’s at least be honest about it.

Neither of them are saying a damn thing. Are you kidding me? So what are we left with? One blubbering idiot that won’t do a damn thing including any harm, and another that will take us deaper into socialism and sink the economy while he is at it.

The economic policies Barak speaks of sound great if you have absolutly no knowledge of basic economics, or you are one that will be getting a check from him in payment for your vote.

To anyone that has read and understood a single book on economics, he looks like another FDR. If you have read anything on the economics of the great depression, being another FDR is not a good thing. It is a very, very bad thing.

[quote]

To me this is all working out to feel more like “Rosewood”…and not Bunker Hill, Saratoga, or Yorktown.

Mufasa[/quote]

66

[quote]borrek wrote:
Sloth wrote:
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/topten.cfm

And, I think we’ll continue to move down that list.

Ha yeah. Hong Kong? Oops thats actually China. Canada? Socialized health care. Europe? Why go to the place you’re afraid america will turn into?

Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out…

[/quote]

Ireland would be cool. Hong Kong has been mostly left alone by China. Little too urban for me though.

67

[quote]hedo wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
hedo:

In my business, I’ve had to look at the two Health Care plans (McCain and Obama) also.

They both have some pluses and minuses; but looking at a few different scenarios, I simply don’t see a fundamental difference between the two plans that could account for having to release a DOZEN employees?

This can’t be argued, though. Businesses have their own circumstances and individual issues. So if Obama’s plan is going to hurt you that much more than McCains, then I definitely can see your concerns.

Question; what are the “greatly reduced freedoms” that will be suffered under Obama? Just curious.

Finally, the issues of our Government go FAR beyond two people (Obama and Pelosi); at its very core our Government is broken.

Mufasa

Mufassa

The Obama plan is designed to drive employees into government sponsored plans. True private plans will not exist after a few years. They may for a year or two but they will not compete against the government sponsored entities without heavy costs to the employer.

I can’t pay that and will naturally let my employees go to the government plans. In the interim it will cost me increased payments.

What will really cost me is the increased taxation to my business. I am a target of the Obama tax plan.

By my calculations based on the number of people I employ, and the average wage I pay them, just to stay even will cost me 12 guys, assuming I can still generate the same amount of revenue with less labor, which I am doubtful of doing. It’s a variable number but that’s my B/E plus my current profit.

I don’t think he understands the number of people employed by small business around the country and screwing the owners in the name of income redistribution doesn’t just affect me.

Loss of freedoms…fairness doctrine for one. The Dems are salivating of reinstating it. Look at what the Obama campaign has done when criticized. Threats of lawsuits and investigations.

Do you think an Obama justice department will be any better? I sure don’t. Look at the Dem controlled congress. They spent more time doing show “investigations” then passing legislation. Do you think it will be any better if they have a bigger majority and control of the White House. Gun Control…kiss the second ammendment goodbye.

Say what you want about the Republicans and conservatives in general but nobody is more socialist then a liberal who is in power. Loss of freedoms will only be the start of it.

[/quote]

Thanks, Hedo.

All of our businesses will be affected in different ways based in a lot of factors (the industry we are in; our area of the country; local and state regulations etc.).

So I hope you were not thinking that I was saying your concerns were not valid. They are valid because NO one knows their business better than the owner.

As I grapple with the Health Care issue, my concern was that a fellow small business owner was seeing a huge difference in the two plans that I had not seen.

I’ll look at things closer.

On spending

I never have been convinced that party affiliation somehow made people spend less in our Government. They may have a “World View” of what percentage of the total pie goes where ; but I have just never seen a Congress or Administration that didn’t spend like a Sailor on shore leave.

Freedoms

The Patriot Act is probably the most sweeping assault on privacy and personal Liberties probably in the history of the Republic. (“Means justifying the ends”).

If Obama, Pelosi and the other Marxist in Congress are going to go even beyond that…then yes, they need to not be in office.

Mufasa

68

“…I believe McCain is going to accomplish absolutely nothing, making him the better choice…”

Now THAT is a very interesting perspective, dh!

Mufasa

69

[quote]hankr wrote:
Wow. Let’s all just take a deep breathe shall we? Obama is just another pol. So is McCain. Both want to grow gov’t - just in slightly different directions.

Neither will be able to do much, given the severe recession coming next year. Tax receipts will be way down, and maybe, just maybe, we will start living within our means again.
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? When’s the last time we lived within our means? Gov’t living within it’s means does get them campaign donations and it can’t buy votes. Never happen.

You really need to explain to all of us how the market will grow with the increase in taxes Obama is talking about. It’s bad even you just look at the percentages he is talking about. If you look at what he plans to spend it’s much, much worse.

There are a few more than 5. Maybe you should read some more posts. There are actually some posters here that are very sharp when it comes to economics.

shit, you’ve been reading for a couple of weeks and you can’t figure it out? no one could possibly know what going on. If you can’t figure it out in a couple of weeks it’s incomprehencable. brilliant.

The market knows what to do. gov’t intervention can only make thinks much worse. If read any economics or history you would already know this.

I can only suggest you keep reading. Try a book.

Good one. We already own 100% of the largest bank. What has that gotten us?

Well, it’s definately all you can do. We’re probably better off if you don’t vote though.

70

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
“…I believe McCain is going to accomplish absolutely nothing, making him the better choice…”

Now THAT is a very interesting perspective, dh!

Mufasa
[/quote]

Some of the best presidents were the ones that were too busy drinking and falandering to do any harm to the county. The very worst ones were full of ambition.

71

[quote]borrek wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Hong Kong has a highly capitalistic economy. What about Canada? It’s ranked lower, so what’s your point? I’m not advocating moving to Canada…And anyways, according to a Cato report, the US government now purchases 46% of all medical care.

Edit: Oh, and that attitude “don’t let the door hit you…” is your own undoing. When the producers of wealth flee this country (some argue they’ve already exported too many jobs overseas), you can tax the few hold outs and the middle-class to death in order to support your rapidly growing population of the unemployed.

My point is fairly simple. You advocate the “makers of wealth” leaving in protest of government involvement with our economy. You posted a list of the most free economies as destinations, but are ignoring the fact that these same countries represent the ideals that induce palpitations in all of you “patriots”

Your list was full of communists and socialists. Singapore is neither but has a huge portion of is corporations control by a State owned fund. If those things appeal to you then by all means, round up your “wealth makers” and hit the road.

When the producers of wealth flee, then others will step into their place. You will not be missed, and are kidding yourself if you think you’ll even make a ripple when leaving.

[/quote]

It’s a rating of nations, of course there’ll be socialists. And why do people always pull the “others will take their place?” As if these people could just be spawned in a clone tank.

You’re still missing those entrepeneurs/owners. You’re now short, don’t you understand that? By the way, I’m not organizing an exodus. I’m just advocating that free men and women are better off in freer-market economies.

72

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
No one robbed us of more liberties than W and the last eight years. [/quote]

Name them, bitch. You go on and on about how fucking great RICO is, and then you pop up with this horse shit. Name the liberties you no longer have.

You can’t name a single thing Bush has taken away from you. Obama will take my money, my right to choose my own doctor, and give my money and my right to choose to some fucking idiot in DC.

Horse shit. The New Deal is still alive and well. It will never be repealed. Gramm’s bill had dick to do with the mess we are in. In fact, Sarbanes-Oxley is the start of this.

You don’t have a fucking clue what you are talking about here, junior. The Dem talking points are old and played.

[/quote]But now, i believe it’s needed. Something is needed. I do not believe this market will work itself out.[/quote]

What the fuck are you even talking about. You have no money in the market, you pay dick for taxes. you have no worries in this, so shut the fuck up about what you think needs to be done.

73

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
“…I believe McCain is going to accomplish absolutely nothing, making him the better choice…”

Now THAT is a very interesting perspective, dh!

Mufasa

Some of the best presidents were the ones that were too busy drinking and falandering to do any harm to the county. The very worst ones were full of ambition.[/quote]

I agree.

In most cases the less they do the better. Especially today.

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:
It’s a rating of nations, of course there’ll be socialists. And why do people always pull the “others will take their place?” As if these people could just be spawned in a clone tank.

You’re still missing those entrepeneurs/owners. You’re now short, don’t you understand that? By the way, I’m not organizing an exodus. I’m just advocating that free men and women are better off in freer-market economies.[/quote]

There is always someone to take your place, always. I’ve seen people fired from a job who were the only men around with the kind of knowledge they had. These people thought they were indispensable and had job security, but were fired nonetheless.

Less than a year later life went on and it was business as usual. It doesn’t matter how great you think you are, there is always someone out there capable of doing what you do.

That is a similar reason to why I don’t subscribe to the “if you don’t make enough, shut up and get a new job” philosophy. That low wage, unlivable, job still exists and needs to be done, and someone will have to fill it. You can’t simply have everyone “buck up”.

75

[quote]borrek wrote:
<<< That is a similar reason to why I don’t subscribe to the “if you don’t make enough, shut up and get a new job” philosophy. That low wage, unlivable, job still exists and needs to be done, and someone will have to fill it. You can’t simply have everyone “buck up”.

[/quote]

Such is life. Always has been, Always will be.

If by this you are implying that it is then the responsibility of the rest of society to make up the difference then I say no way.

A government that by designed omission of action simply stays out of the way so that everyone can achieve the most THEY CAN is the best there will ever be. We were closest to it, but our misguided false compassion is getting the best of us.

76

[quote]borrek wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It’s a rating of nations, of course there’ll be socialists. And why do people always pull the “others will take their place?” As if these people could just be spawned in a clone tank.

You’re still missing those entrepeneurs/owners. You’re now short, don’t you understand that? By the way, I’m not organizing an exodus. I’m just advocating that free men and women are better off in freer-market economies.

There is always someone to take your place, always. I’ve seen people fired from a job who were the only men around with the kind of knowledge they had. These people thought they were indispensable and had job security, but were fired nonetheless.

Less than a year later life went on and it was business as usual. It doesn’t matter how great you think you are, there is always someone out there capable of doing what you do.

That is a similar reason to why I don’t subscribe to the “if you don’t make enough, shut up and get a new job” philosophy. That low wage, unlivable, job still exists and needs to be done, and someone will have to fill it. You can’t simply have everyone “buck up”.

[/quote]

Emmigration has a pretty big impact on a number of countries. They lose the best and brightest in large numbers. And, economically it shows. Just as the US was a draw (the land of opportunity!) for large numbers of these talented individuals, it can also reverse course.

We can (and according to many concerned with outsourcing, we have) drive jobs, businesses, and talent away, to the new Land(s) of Opportunity. But, keep raiding the business owner.

Keep making it harder to compete against nations who’ve surpassed us in economic freedom, and those catching up. Build your nanny state up, and wonder why people have taken their businesses and jobs overseas.

77

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Demiajax brings up an important point:

“…There will be no revolution. For one, the standard of living in this country is too high for widespread unrest. The cost is too high for most people, the benefit too low…”

[/quote]

Currently that is the case, though it certainly can change as we watch our economy struggle. There are a couple of concepts here at play that we aren’t considering. Consider the concept of “loss aversion”. We live a life pretty high on the hog. This can cause the masses to behave irrationally. A well-to-do people can seriously overreact to some pretty minor slights or the potential loss of stuff that really doesn’t matter.

Consider that our head revolutionaries weren’t the masses. You had rich New England men who were angry over the Navigation Acts and being taxed something that was really a pittance. On the other side were rich plantation owners who were pissed because of the Proclamation of 1763 saying that they can’t get richer by expanding past the Appalations.

We also aren’t considering the risk factor here. No one wants to be the guy to fire the first shot. But once that shot has been fired by someone all it is going to take is you thinking you’ll get away with it to step up to fight as well. How many men would volunteer to go to ANY war if they expected to come home dead? Most men go to war acknowledging the risks, but not expecting to die.[quote]

Even if there was some form of “unrest”, I doubt that it would occur where most “patriots” live.

Questions (So I don’t misquote you Mike):

  1. What do you see as the nature of the Revolution? Armed and violent? Silent protest? Tax rebellion? Other?[/quote]

I don’t know. I’m not even saying that the election will cause a revolution. I only predict some level of major violence in the country. Eventually it will come to arms though. I certainly don’t expect it to begin that way. It’ll likely begin with people just checking out of the political system. Civil disobedience will follow. But here’s the rub: governments have no solution for civil disobedience but to crack down on them. Just as the Brits’ only answer to the Boston Tea Party was to station troops and enact draconian laws, so too will our own gov. Peacetime armies enforcing laws create bad blood. That will lead to violence.

And for those that think the might of the US military will crush a civilian resistance, I can assure you that as a former infantry Marine we will have our hands full with a nation of men and their hunting rifles. We won’t be dropping JDAMs from F-18’s on New York City. The greatest threat will be helos.

And both are socialists. This is a lesser of two evils thing. I don’t normally buy into that, but the “evil” that is Aku…I mean Obama is so bad that McCain is a valid choice. Fortunately I live in Idaho so I can write someone in instead of having to hold my nose and check the R. Frankly my preferred outcome is an Obama presidency with a Republican congress.[quote]

  1. What make one candiate a “Messiah” and one not?

It appears that the last week has seen McCain supporters almost on their knees, PRAYING (yes, “pray” was used) for McCain to “save” them from this “Arab Socialist” who is about to take over “our” Country.

[/quote]

I still can’t get over the Arab thing. Even if he were Arab I could care less so long as he was on my side. All you’re getting out of the right is the stink of desperation. So far as the Obama “messiah” thing goes, I think others can explain the point better than I can, but I’ll point to the cult of personality that has surrounded the guy. Have you seen some of this guy’s appearances? Hell, when I took my LSAT last week, the girl behind me had a shirt on that was just a giant face. Kinda reminded me of Big Brother. Correct me if I’m wrong, but people weren’t like this about Kerry were they? I’m not entirely sure what Obama has that Kerry didn’t. Like I said, I concede that I cannot explain it as well as most.[quote]

I will agree with Mike on this point. This is working out to be a VERY polarizing election; but mostly for the reasons that people usually become divided: the spreading of mis-information, half-truths, distortions and lies; their own personal prejudices; and the failure to listen to what each other are saying.

To me this is all working out to feel more like “Rosewood”…and not Bunker Hill, Saratoga, or Yorktown.

Mufasa[/quote]

Yeah, lies and fear mongering are rampant. But where hasn’t it been? I mean Paul Revere was a blatant propagandist. Always a pleasure Mufasa. We may not agree on everything, but you’re a smart guy.

mike

78

Mike

The “cult of personality” is one of the more disturbing things about the Obama campaign. The fact that he plays into it only makes it worse.

A totalitarian state needs a tyrant. Obama has all the makings of a tyrant including the fanatical supporters who refuse to ask questions less they seem unreliable and not devoted enough.

79

[quote]dhickey wrote:
hankr wrote:
Wow. Let’s all just take a deep breathe shall we? Obama is just another pol. So is McCain. Both want to grow gov’t - just in slightly different directions.

Neither will be able to do much, given the severe recession coming next year. Tax receipts will be way down, and maybe, just maybe, we will start living within our means again.

Are you kidding me? When’s the last time we lived within our means? Gov’t living within it’s means does get them campaign donations and it can’t buy votes. Never happen.

There won’t be a dictatorship here. There won’t be riots in the streets. There will be a rough couple of years, and we will sort things out, then the economy will start growing again.

You really need to explain to all of us how the market will grow with the increase in taxes Obama is talking about. It’s bad even you just look at the percentages he is talking about. If you look at what he plans to spend it’s much, much worse.

It’s gonna be OK guys, really. Is it really so hard to believe that those who disagree with you on some points of policy can also be rational human beings who want the best for our country? Maybe they even want the best for you and yours. I know I do, regardless of where we agree or don’t.

As far as the bailout, I doubt that there are 5 people registered on the site that can give a coherent explanation of what is wrong and why the bailout is or is not a good idea.

There are a few more than 5. Maybe you should read some more posts. There are actually some posters here that are very sharp when it comes to economics.

How many of you could explain what a credit default swap is, and what role they played? Do you know why England is about to sue Iceland? Got any idea why the DOW looks like a ping pong ball?

I have learned more about economics than I ever wanted to in the last few weeks, and have read a ton of stuff, but I think I have only a fuzzy grasp of the overall issues. It is a very complex situation.

shit, you’ve been reading for a couple of weeks and you can’t figure it out? no one could possibly know what going on. If you can’t figure it out in a couple of weeks it’s incomprehencable. brilliant.

Bear in mind, even a lot of the experts are not sure what to do. So when I see people pontificating on forums and on TV - esp the “everyman” who most likely knows less than nothing, it is both funny and sad.

The market knows what to do. gov’t intervention can only make thinks much worse. If read any economics or history you would already know this.

(Yes, I know - I’m no different - but at least I have been trying to understand it. Some of the posts above reveal a marked lack of effort to do so.)

I can only suggest you keep reading. Try a book.

I can tell you this with a fair degree of confidence - I reflexively shy away from gov’t manipulation of the markets, but we are WAY WAY past that this time.

We now have entire countries going bankrupt (see Iceland). We need a co-ordinated int’l effort to keep this from turning into something much worse than just another recession. But - that is happening as I type. The summit this weekend looks (at least as of this writing) as if it will produce the beginnings of a solution.

BTW - it (the bailout)has morphed yet again. It is not at all what it was when passed. Now the US will be taking an ownership stake in the banks - at least we will get something for our money this way. Maybe.

Good one. We already own 100% of the largest bank. What has that gotten us?

I am so smart, I even know exactly what you - yes you, the guy that is really upset and angry - should do. Get in a really hard w/out. Have a good meal. Make love with your sweetie. Get up in the am and repeat. Aside from voting, it is all you can do anyway.

Well, it’s definitely all you can do. We’re probably better off if you don’t vote though.[/quote]

And if someone says something you disagree with, the only possible thing to do is get angry. :slight_smile:

I see the markets are up this am. Rather than respond item by item, I will simply declare you the winner.
And repeat - let’s all just chill. It’s going to be OK.
There is not going to be a revolution. Please, just go to Wal Mart. Can you see those people revolting against anything but higher prices at Taco Bell?

“When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.”