[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
Hey I just wanted to share a different perspective. I am by no means ready to leave this conversation.
If you are predestined that it doesn?t matter. If you have freewill than it does matter. The question is can you have a freewill and still be predestined by god? If so see point one.
[/quote]
From a logical point of view, it is possible:
For example:
God has perfect knowledge of the future, but in order to preserve our free view, he uses his power to deny himself that knowledge.
Again this is only a logical possibility that I know of.
[quote]fahd wrote:
No. God created the PROCESS which makes the movie, he did not influence the result.[/quote]
Okay, if God created the PROCESS, but knew when he started the PROCESS what was going to happen, then everything that happened afterwards was predetermined. If you create something and know what the outcome is when you do so, you created the outcome.
How is it apples and oranges? Your parents put you in school, knowing you will learn what they ask you to, and knowing that you should graduate…does that mean that you do? No, because you have the choice to learn or not to…
Just as God put us on this earth, to learn, and he hopes we will graduate in a sense…come back to him, but just because he wants the best for us does not mean we have no free will…
Ok, so you say he is not the supreme being, and that he is not all powerful, then who or what is, because if he is not the be all end all, who or what is? Then who affects our free will?
I’m speaking hypothetically from your point of view, I believe in my free will, but that God is not all powerful.[/quote]
You are proposing the absentee landlord perspective of god. He creates the universe then steps back until our judgment day correct so as to not to relinquish our freewill?
[quote]slimjim wrote:
karva wrote:
A man can’t argue with the Bible. He either agrees or disagrees with it being the word of God. That’s all.
Yes, but this isn’t really a part of the Bible, and I don’t know that the Bible constitutes the word of God either.[/quote]
I wanted to reference to spaceking’s post. Wrong button, sorry. What comes to free will, I’m free to take whichever standpoint I choose. What comes to predestination, I try to accept what life brings.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
fahd wrote:
No. God created the PROCESS which makes the movie, he did not influence the result.
Okay, if God created the PROCESS, but knew when he started the PROCESS what was going to happen, then everything that happened afterwards was predetermined. If you create something and know what the outcome is when you do so, you created the outcome. [/quote]
If I intentionally bring about an effect then I know by my INTENTIOAL knowledge alone that the effect will become a reality. But if I merely forsee an event without intending it, then I have not created that effect.
God foresees how we would choose if created, but does not always intend us to act in this way, and hence does not bring about these actions in an intentional, and hence freedom-canceling, way.
I’m speaking hypothetically from your point of view, I believe in my free will, but that God is not all powerful.
You are proposing the absentee landlord perspective of god. He creates the universe then steps back until our judgment day correct so as to not to relinquish our freewill?
[/quote]
Well, given the circumstances of how I’d like to continue feeling special and that my opinion and choices really matter, yes I like to believe that God allows us to decide for ourselves. It’s kind of like how a lot of us believe that our democracy[in America] is really run by us, the underlings, rather than the rich, but that’s a topic for a totally different debate.
[quote]spaceking wrote:
How is it apples and oranges? Your parents put you in school, knowing you will learn what they ask you to, and knowing that you should graduate…does that mean that you do? No, because you have the choice to learn or not to…
Just as God put us on this earth, to learn, and he hopes we will graduate in a sense…come back to him, but just because he wants the best for us does not mean we have no free will…
Ok, so you say he is not the supreme being, and that he is not all powerful, then who or what is, because if he is not the be all end all, who or what is? Then who affects our free will?[/quote]
I am not saying that he is not the supreme being. I think you’re getting hung up on the definition here.
All-powerful=controls everything
If we have free will, God does not control us because we can do whatever we want. Therefore, God had to give up his power over us in order that we have free will, so he is not all-powerful.
The stance that one controls their own future, including that of their eternal soul is often more than most are willing to take on. It is much easy to ?LEAVE IT IN GODS HANDS? after all it is a ?PART OF HIS PLAN? unless we are talking about abortion or unwed teen mothers God wont take responsibility for that.
I am not saying that he is not the supreme being. I think you’re getting hung up on the definition here.
All-powerful=controls everything
If we have free will, God does not control us because we can do whatever we want. Therefore, God had to give up his power over us in order that we have free will, so he is not all-powerful.[/quote]
Just becaues he gives us the power to choose our actions, does not mean he looses his power. I think you can agree with me that showing restraint is more powerful than giving in.
He still is all powerful, however he CHOOSES, just as he gives it to us to choose, not to step in. Therefore there is no loss of power, only the agency to choose our actions, just as he can choose his own.
Put is this way, just because I have passed the bar exam, and the state says that I can pratice law, but I choose not to, does that give me any less power to practice law, or does it take power from the state who says that I can?
Thats your problem, in theology they use a more specific term, omnipotent: which means having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. This is not the same as controlling everything!
Just becaues he gives us the power to choose our actions, does not mean he looses his power. I think you can agree with me that showing restraint is more powerful than giving in.
He still is all powerful, however he CHOOSES, just as he gives it to us to choose, not to step in. Therefore there is no loss of power, only the agency to choose our actions, just as he can choose his own.
Put is this way, just because I have passed the bar exam, and the state says that I can pratice law, but I choose not to, does that give me any less power to practice law, or does it take power from the state who says that I can?
[/quote]
It’s like you’re arguing over the time Captain Marvel lost his powers…that is not the point. I am not saying in any fashion that God is diminished by this, simply that in order for us to truly have free will, God can never interfere, ever.
Even though he could because he is God, he cannot ever do this or we do not have free will. The moment he did, our free will would be compromised. So effectively he is not all-powerful.
Thats your problem, in theology they use a more specific term, omnipotent: which means having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. This is not the same as controlling everything![/quote]
Please point out the finer points in the difference oh enlightened one.
If evil exist that God created it, even if it was by giving man Freewill.
All of gods Creation is good/beautiful.
Therefore evil/freewill is good/beautiful.
And since God did not create himself we cannot know if he is good.
Therefore everything is good that is created.
If God is evil or good than he was created?
Here’s my spiritual outlook on this. My perception of God is that he exists only as the collective souls of all good men. In effect, then, God is only as powerful as we will him to be.
In other words, God only acts THROUGH us, so that the responsibility to do good in the world is put directly upon us all. This is why I find it so important to fight tirelessly against all that is evil.
I don’t believe God knows the outcome of the future. I believe he has made it up to us to keep bettering the world.
So, what’s the lesson here? Simply this: If you wish something to be so, getting on your knees and praying to God that it be so if fruitless. God does not work in that way.
In your deciding that you will dedicate yourself and work hard and be unyielding in your quest, until that which you wished to be so becomes so, then God has answered you prayer, through you OWN will and your OWN actions.
Thats your problem, in theology they use a more specific term, omnipotent: which means having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. This is not the same as controlling everything![/quote]
Well, if we truly have free will and he can never interfere or we lose this, he does not have universal power does he?
Either you’re blind or ignoring this, I will post it again:
If I intentionally bring about an effect then I know by my INTENTIOAL knowledge alone that the effect will become a reality. But if I merely forsee an event without intending it, then I have not created that effect.
God foresees how we would choose if created, but does not always intend us to act in this way, and hence does not bring about these actions in an intentional, and hence freedom-canceling, way.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
If evil exist that God created it, even if it was by giving man Freewill.
All of gods Creation is good/beautiful.
Therefore evil/freewill is good/beautiful.
And since God did not create himself we cannot know if he is good.
Therefore everything is good that is created.
If God is evil or good than he was created?
[/quote]
[quote]HardcoreHorn wrote:
Here’s my spiritual outlook on this. My perception of God is that he exists only as the collective souls of all good men. In effect, then, God is only as powerful as we will him to be.
In other words, God only acts THROUGH us, so that the responsibility to do good in the world is put directly upon us all. This is why I find it so important to fight tirelessly against all that is evil.
I don’t believe God knows the outcome of the future. I believe he has made it up to us to keep bettering the world.
So, what’s the lesson here? Simply this: If you wish something to be so, getting on your knees and praying to God that it be so if fruitless. God does not work in that way.
In your deciding that you will dedicate yourself and work hard and be unyielding in your quest, until that which you wished to be so becomes so, then God has answered you prayer, through you OWN will and your OWN actions.
Am I being confusing, or does anybody get that?[/quote]
If my actions are Gods answer to my prays then I am God correct?