[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.
If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?
Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t be omniscient. [/quote]
You mean omnipotent, right?
[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.
If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?
Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t be omniscient. [/quote]
Well if God knows what choice you’re going to make, is it really a choice or predestiny?
[quote]fahd wrote:
That wasn’t much of a debate was it slim?[/quote]
sorry, I do have this pesky thing called class that I have to go to periodically throughout the day.
A man can’t argue with the Bible. He either agrees or disagrees with it being the word of God. That’s all.
[quote]spaceking wrote:
doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.
If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?
Ok…so then if you are not a believer…then just for talk sake let’s say that God does exsist…then Yes he does know what you will do…however, he does not interceed based upon the earlier argument.
However…one can argue your point that the stupidity is he does not believe…true? [/quote]
If he knows what I’m going to do, then it is predetermined, and I don’t have free will.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.
If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?
Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t be omniscient.
Well if God knows what choice you’re going to make, is it really a choice or predestiny?[/quote]
Both, simply know the end to a movie does not mean you have influenced it in anyway.
[quote]karva wrote:
A man can’t argue with the Bible. He either agrees or disagrees with it being the word of God. That’s all.[/quote]
Yes, but this isn’t really a part of the Bible, and I don’t know that the Bible constitutes the word of God either.
The issue of Gods existence only arises due to a misunderstanding of time and events. For example it appears that a series of events has occurred to bring us all to the current situation and that a measurable amount of time can be referenced to show this. However if one opens their perception and views the situation not from their own perspective but from that of the creation of the universe it becomes clear that we can no longer gauge time because there has yet to be a completion to the process. In other words a year is only a year because we define a year. From the perspective of the universe the process is still unfolding so it has no reference of a year. It is a single event. If one sees this they can understand that time is truly a continuum. To break out ones life and identify it, as a period of a continuum is pointless in my opinion because we do not know the value of the time we have in relation to the entire cosmos. So maybe time doesn?t solve this problem, but our importance in the whole picture is probably worth looking at. Talking Religion/Spirituality is a waste of time. Try living it.
[quote]doogie wrote:
If he knows what I’m going to do, then it is predetermined, and I don’t have free will.[/quote]
If He knows what you’re going to do, but He doesn’t change it, that doesn’t interfere with your free will.
Him knowing isn’t the same as him deciding.
[quote]spaceking wrote:
So, does that mean that if we sit back and let our children do whatever they want, even though we can interceed it makes us less of a parent and takes away our power? [/quote]
Well let’s say you do intercede. This means that you’ve take away their free will.[quote]
God IS all powerful, and just becuase he has given us a plan which idealy will determine our happiness based upon our choices, does not mean that he has given away any of his power. [/quote]
Well, if we are following some grand design and our future is already determined, we do not have free wil[quote]
If you read the Bible, it states that “this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God,” so if this is the case then it must needs be that we have to be able to choose our paths without the intercession of His devine power…that would violate the plan…
[/quote]
Yes, but if their is a plan, we do not have free will because our path is already chosen for us, we are going to end up where he wants us to.[quote]
Just as it would violate the growing and learning process of our children if we interceed on their behalf…
We all must choose and learn from our choices.[/quote]
Great, but if we’re learning what he wants us to with his end in mind, we do not have free will. You cannot say we have a choice, but that we are going to end up where he wants us to because then there really isn’t a choice at all.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
The issue of Gods existence only arises due to a misunderstanding of time and events. For example it appears that a series of events has occurred to bring us all to the current situation and that a measurable amount of time can be referenced to show this. However if one opens their perception and views the situation not from their own perspective but from that of the creation of the universe it becomes clear that we can no longer gauge time because there has yet to be a completion to the process. In other words a year is only a year because we define a year. From the perspective of the universe the process is still unfolding so it has no reference of a year. It is a single event. If one sees this they can understand that time is truly a continuum. To break out ones life and identify it, as a period of a continuum is pointless in my opinion because we do not know the value of the time we have in relation to the entire cosmos. So maybe time doesn?t solve this problem, but our importance in the whole picture is probably worth looking at. Talking Religion/Spirituality is a waste of time. Try living it. [/quote]
Great, I’ve read Richard Dawkins too, so take your own advice and leave us to our pointless debates.
Not nessicarily, again IF you believe in God you believe that He is all powerful, as well as all knowing, He showed unto Moses the things that were past as well as things to come, so he does have the power of forsight, however…you still have this thing call free agency…and that is to choose.
It would be lack of free will if He steped in and made your decision one way or the other. If you believe in the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit then you believe that God can influence your decisions through the still small voice, but He does not actually force you to choose one way or the other.
Therefore you still have free will to do as you please…again as quoted in the Bible…“God gave Adam the right to choose to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, however he forbid it.” So, God, knowing all, knew that Adam would partake, yet he did not stop him, even though Adam was in direct violation of God’s commandment.
You have the right to choose, just because God may know what you will choose does not mean A) That it is predetermined what you will choose, and B) That you have no free will.
[quote]fahd wrote:
slimjim wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.
If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?
Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t be omniscient.
Well if God knows what choice you’re going to make, is it really a choice or predestiny?
Both, simply know the end to a movie does not mean you have influenced it in anyway.
[/quote]
It’s a little different if you created the movie isn’t it? The fallacy in your argument is the fact that God created everything, and if he knew the end when he created us, of course his influence is undeniable.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
spaceking wrote:
So, does that mean that if we sit back and let our children do whatever they want, even though we can interceed it makes us less of a parent and takes away our power?
Well let’s say you do intercede. This means that you’ve take away their free will.
God IS all powerful, and just becuase he has given us a plan which idealy will determine our happiness based upon our choices, does not mean that he has given away any of his power.
Well, if we are following some grand design and our future is already determined, we do not have free wil
If you read the Bible, it states that “this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God,” so if this is the case then it must needs be that we have to be able to choose our paths without the intercession of His devine power…that would violate the plan…
Yes, but if their is a plan, we do not have free will because our path is already chosen for us, we are going to end up where he wants us to.
Just as it would violate the growing and learning process of our children if we interceed on their behalf…
We all must choose and learn from our choices.
Great, but if we’re learning what he wants us to with his end in mind, we do not have free will. You cannot say we have a choice, but that we are going to end up where he wants us to because then there really isn’t a choice at all.[/quote]
Based upon us learing with his end in mind you argue that we loose our free will. So does that mean that by going to shcool, and abiding laws of the local and national governments, learning what they want us to learn and grow as they intend then we loose our free will? If we try to teach our children not to murder, rape and steal, teaching them to our end, does that take thier free will away?
[quote]slimjim wrote:
fahd wrote:
slimjim wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.
If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?
Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t be omniscient.
Well if God knows what choice you’re going to make, is it really a choice or predestiny?
Both, simply know the end to a movie does not mean you have influenced it in anyway.
It’s a little different if you created the movie isn’t it? The fallacy in your argument is the fact that God created everything, and if he knew the end when he created us, of course his influence is undeniable.[/quote]
No. God created the PROCESS which makes the movie, he did not influence the result.
Hey I just wanted to share a different perspective. I am by no means ready to leave this conversation.
If you are predestined that it doesn?t matter. If you have freewill than it does matter. The question is can you have a freewill and still be predestined by god? If so see point one.
Hey I just wanted to share a different perspective. I am by no means ready to leave this conversation.
If you are predestined than it doesn?t matter. If you have freewill than it does matter. The question is can you have a freewill and still be predestined by god? If so see point one.
[quote]spaceking wrote:
Not nessicarily, again IF you believe in God you believe that He is all powerful, as well as all knowing, He showed unto Moses the things that were past as well as things to come, so he does have the power of forsight, however…you still have this thing call free agency…and that is to choose. [/quote]
Where does it say what you have to believe or disbelieve? I can believe in Santa Claus without believing in Rudolph if I want to. Moses, which team did he sign with during free agency? Any arbitration involved? Sorry, but I don’t know what it is you’re trying to say with this one. If God showed him what was going to happen, how could it turn out any other way? No matter what, it would turn out however God said it would. This means there is no free will because there was nothing Moses could do to change the outcome.
Still, if he knows how it’s going to turn out, do you have free will? That is the point. If he created the universe, and knew how everything was going to turn out in the beginning, how can you say you have free will?
[quote]
Therefore you still have free will to do as you please…again as quoted in the Bible…“God gave Adam the right to choose to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, however he forbid it.” So, God, knowing all, knew that Adam would partake, yet he did not stop him, even though Adam was in direct violation of God’s commandment.
You have the right to choose, just because God may know what you will choose does not mean A) That it is predetermined what you will choose, and B) That you have no free will.[/quote]
You say God created everything, yet God knew when he created everything what was going to happen, yet we have free will?
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
Hey I just wanted to share a different perspective. I am by no means ready to leave this conversation.
If you are predestined that it doesn?t matter. If you have freewill than it does matter. The question is can you have a freewill and still be predestined by god? If so see point one.
[/quote]
Dude, that takes us on such a different tangent that it would muddle the current debate, but I see your point.
[quote]spaceking wrote:
Based upon us learing with his end in mind you argue that we loose our free will. So does that mean that by going to shcool, and abiding laws of the local and national governments, learning what they want us to learn and grow as they intend then we loose our free will? If we try to teach our children not to murder, rape and steal, teaching them to our end, does that take thier free will away? [/quote]
You are comparing apples and oranges. God created us, the Earth, the Universe. If you accept this and then also state that he knew everything that was going to happen at the beginning of time, then how can you not say that everything was predetermined? He created everything! He knew what was going to happen! This means he created everything with the outcome in mind and we have no free will.
I’m speaking hypothetically from your point of view, I believe in my free will, but that God is not all powerful.