[quote]fahd wrote:
Nothing is good and nothing is bad.
[/quote]
What? How can you say that a little girl being kidnapped, raped, and killed isn’t bad?
INDIFFERENCE OF GOOD MEN!!
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
HardcoreHorn wrote:
Here’s my spiritual outlook on this. My perception of God is that he exists only as the collective souls of all good men. In effect, then, God is only as powerful as we will him to be.
In other words, God only acts THROUGH us, so that the responsibility to do good in the world is put directly upon us all. This is why I find it so important to fight tirelessly against all that is evil.
I don’t believe God knows the outcome of the future. I believe he has made it up to us to keep bettering the world.
So, what’s the lesson here? Simply this: If you wish something to be so, getting on your knees and praying to God that it be so if fruitless. God does not work in that way.
In your deciding that you will dedicate yourself and work hard and be unyielding in your quest, until that which you wished to be so becomes so, then God has answered you prayer, through you OWN will and your OWN actions.
Am I being confusing, or does anybody get that?
If my actions are Gods answer to my prays then I am God correct?
[/quote]
Well, yeah, you could look at it that way. More accurately we’re both “part” of the collective “whole” that makes up the divine spirit that is God.
[quote]fahd wrote:
Forget the last post, its irrelevant.
Either you’re blind or ignoring this, I will post it again:
If I intentionally bring about an effect then I know by my INTENTIOAL knowledge alone that the effect will become a reality. But if I merely forsee an event without intending it, then I have not created that effect.
God foresees how we would choose if created, but does not always intend us to act in this way, and hence does not bring about these actions in an intentional, and hence freedom-canceling, way.
[/quote]
I don’t see how God could create everything, knowing what was going to happen before hand, yet not intend the outcome.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
fahd wrote:
slimjim wrote:
All-powerful=controls everything
Thats your problem, in theology they use a more specific term, omnipotent: which means having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. This is not the same as controlling everything!
Well, if we truly have free will and he can never interfere or we lose this, he does not have universal power does he?[/quote]
Its a logical impossibility to give us free will AND interfere; therefore not interfering is the only logical possibility.
Its like asking whether God can create a stone he can’t move.
Its a logical impossibility to give us free will AND interfere; therefore not interfering is the only logical possibility.
Now that is good thinking.
[quote]fahd wrote:
Its a logical impossibility to give us free will AND interfere; therefore not interfering is the only logical possibility.
Its like asking whether God can create a stone he can’t move.[/quote]
This is what I was saying. So if he can’t interfere, he does not have universal power because he does not have power over our actions.
God himself chose to give us free will. It is impossible for himself to contradict himself by interferring at the same time.
Is that why you think it makes him less powerful? that he can’t do something logically impossible?
[quote]fahd wrote:
God himself chose to give us free will. It is impossible for himself to contradict himself by interferring at the same time.
Is that why you think it makes him less powerful? that he can’t do something logically impossible?[/quote]
You’re just trying to argue semantics now, he cannot be all-powerful if he cannot stop us from doing whatever we want.
We are going in circles, he CAN choose to stop us doing what we want ANYTIME, but he chose to deny himself of this power so he does not interfere with oour free will.
Does it act of intentionally denying yourself something make you less powerful?
Fahd
Anyways man, great discussion, I’m going to bed now (like in UK).
I will resurrect this thread later tommorow.
Fahd
[quote]slimjim wrote:
fahd wrote:
Its a logical impossibility to give us free will AND interfere; therefore not interfering is the only logical possibility.
Its like asking whether God can create a stone he can’t move.
This is what I was saying. So if he can’t interfere, he does not have universal power because he does not have power over our actions. [/quote]
It’s not that he can’t interfere, it’s that he chooses not to. You can have infinite power and choose to do nothing, just like you have the power to workout but you can choose not to.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
I don’t see how God could create everything, knowing what was going to happen before hand, yet not intend the outcome. [/quote]
This is a good point, anyone care to address it?
This is why I say that God is not all knowing of our destinies. He only gives us the tools and hopes we do what is right.
[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
I don’t see how God could create everything, knowing what was going to happen before hand, yet not intend the outcome.
This is a good point, anyone care to address it?[/quote]
- God Created everything
- Using his infinite intelligence, he was able to predict everything that will happen
- He did not create everything with the intent of achieving a special outcome
- hence freewill defense still holds true
[quote]fahd wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
I don’t see how God could create everything, knowing what was going to happen before hand, yet not intend the outcome.
This is a good point, anyone care to address it?
- God Created everything
- Using his infinite intelligence, he was able to predict everything that will happen
- He did not create everything with the intent of achieving a special outcome
- hence freewill defense still holds true
[/quote]
I fail to see the point in creating a universe if you know everything that is going to happen with it beforehand, but whatever you want to believe I guess…
[quote]fahd wrote:
…
therefore, either God:
- does not exist
- is impotent
…
[/quote]
We know he is a father so he wasm’t always impotent.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
fahd wrote:
…
therefore, either God:
- does not exist
- is impotent
…
We know he is a father so he wasm’t always impotent.[/quote]
Just goes to show you how stressful disobedient children can be.
If anything the example of ‘Could God make a stone so heavy he couldn’t move it’ is an arguement against him and honestly don’t see how that could possibly be for him. It’s a paradox like going back in time and killing your dad before you were born.
God either knows everything that is going to happen or he doesn’t. This isn’t saying there can’t be a god because of this, only that he’s not all-powerful and all-knowing.
Whether he doesn’t know the future because he “denies himself the knowledge” or if he just doesn’t know, it still prevents him from being all knowing.
And as far as the free will goes, if we only have free will because god “refuses to interfere” then it’s not really free will. Just the fact that he “could” interfere means it’s not really free.