Hey STB, thanks for this thread! I was wondering do you have a suggestion on which is the best book to purchase about the westside methods?
Also, how do you track your workouts? Do you have a template in excel or some type of training journal?
[quote]arramzy wrote:
1.How would your ME exercises change depending upon whether you compete raw, single ply or double ply?
2.For recovery workouts what is your view on simple treadmill walking? Do you think this aids upper body active recovery or mostly lower?
3.What other than soft tissue and ART would you recommend to deal with tightness and poor recovery in specifically the hips?
4.On that note… How do you approach the wreckage that happens to the hips when squatting raw with a wide stance?
Again, thanks sooo much for your help. It is very appreciated.[/quote]
- Basically, if the meet coming up is raw, don’t train in the gear as it gets closer. You should also do free squats on a couple ME days. With a geared bench press, you are going to need a lot of top end work with heavy weights. Non-geared, you are going to need to work the bottom and mid-range harder so more full ROM benches should be done. Double ply is a whole new ball game. Lets stick with raw and single ply for now until all of the initial questions get answered. Plus, I have very limited in multi ply. I don’t want to talk a bunch of shit on something I am not well versed in. So, here is my suggestion for a raw month of ME work:
ME Lower:
Week 1: 14inch Cambered Bar w/ 200lbs of chain to a low box
Week 2: Reverse Band Pulls
Week 3: Safety Squat Bar Free Squat
Week 4: Some kind of Good Morning
ME Upper
Week 1: Floor Press
Week 2: Fat Bar Bench w/ chain
Week 3:Close Grip Incline
Week 4: Dumbbel rep work or illeagal wides for a 6rm-10rm
For Single Ply:
ME Lower: Same but use a low box on week 3
ME Upper: Same but use a 3 board and a close grip on week 2
-
When you do recovery work, you can’t think in terms of upper and lower body. Unless you feel you need to condition a certain area, then that should be the emphasis of your session. “Recovery” work is a means to return the body back to baseline before the next training session begins or before the meet starts. When you think like this, recovery then can be veiwed a function of nervous and hormonal activity. When you train, and for a long time period after if you train heavy, your nervous system becomes sympathetic dominant. This raises your heart rate, body temperature, and royally screws with your hormone secretions. This is why heart rate is a good measure of being overtrained. Pure recovery work should be geared towards returning the body to PARAsympathetic dominance. That being said, walking on an incline is good. Just don’t turn it into a “cardio session.” Personally, for recovery, I like dragging a light sled for 30 minutes, not going nuts in my extra workouts every once in a while, taking contrast showers, and doing long sessions of mobility work. I read once an old Russian weightlifting coache would put his athletes on a plane and fly them to a beach. They would just walk around and look at the water for a little while. His theory was this was the best way to return to parasympathetic dominance.
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Soft tissue work is good for all of the superficial stuff (like skin and muscle elasticity) but if your problem is structural, you need to be doing some kind of traction/distraction with bands. Intstead of some long winded explaination, go to www.MobilityWOD.com, watch every video, and figure out what alleviates the pain/pressure in your hips.
-
Same answer as above. Also, I have had the “destroyed hips from box squatting” problem as well. 2 things fixed it:
Mobility work
Wearing a loose suit with the straps down during the accumulation block (sometimes) and the intensification block (always) during my speed work.
You are literally smashing your muscles into the box and pushing your hips through an extended ROM. If your sliding surfaces are all bound up, they are going to sheer and cause pain/inflammation. Get them mobile and keep them tight with a loose suit or breifs.
[quote]Voj wrote:
On ME days so far I rotated exercises every two weeks. On week 1 I hit a 3RM and on week 2 I hit my max single. Do you think I can sustain this on a yearly basis or should I focus more on 3 and 5 RM’s? Btw I’m not competing but planning on to once I finish university.[/quote]
Try switching every week. Even if you arent competing. Think of it as GPP, you have an extended period of time to get strong at many different leverages (variaitions).
[quote]Vladamir wrote:
When do you think its good to start the westside method? Like what would be an adequate amount of strength? I am still relatively weak but I would consider making the switch eventually. [/quote]
Whenever you want. Just make sure the emphasis of the first few months is getting your GPP as high as possible and getting your technique as efficient as possible. I outlined in a previous post how the last 8 weeks leading up to a meet would be structured for a newer lifter. Check that out. As far as a level of strength to start? I have no idea. Most people fail out of the system because their plan sucks, they do too much too fast, and their form is total shit. That has nothing to do with strength. Like I said, GPP and technique (Accumulation Block) for AT LEAST a month, if not 2, before you get into heavier stuff.
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
Hey STB: I was wondering about this as an adjunct. Can I run WestSide DE days for three weeks 50/55/60% bar weight with weight releasers @ 80%,deload week, 50/55/60% with chains @ 80% deload week, 50/55/60% with bands @ 80% and expect better results than just RUNNING 50/55/60%. I believe Louie had mentioned this in one of his 2007 or 2008 articles that the Bulgarians had used this with much success. I am looking at starting this in 10 days but wanted your take on it first.
Also, thank you for your “Death to Fitness” blog. Luckily I understand it but most here in Mammoth Lakes dont : ([/quote]
I think I touched on this above, there are many different ways to plan out deloads and the pendulum waves. I’d say go for it and see what happens. I only have 2 suggestions though:
-Wave the deload percentages. Instead of hitting 80% every deload week, try 70 the first, then 75, then 80. I assume you are getting ready for a meet? You want all of your relative training volumes and intensities to be the highest before you deload for the meet. Including the deloads. You have the right idea going from WRs, to chains, to bands. Just make sure you have time to drop all accommodated resistance a week or two before the meet.
-Also, this is a long time to stick with speed-strength waves. I’m sure it will help your competition lifts because a lot of strong people do the same thing. I am all about what it optimal though, not just what “helps.” I would suggest implementing some Lactate Tolerance Training early on and a 2-3 week strength speed wave in weeks 7-9 (if the meet is the full 3 months away. Again, just a suggestion but, you have a plan. Thats more than most people have. If you have any more questions let me know, if not, post on here after the first month and let me know how its going.
Also, thanks for reading my blog. I need to update it more often. haha.
[quote]nalgene1832 wrote:
Hey STB, thanks for this thread! I was wondering do you have a suggestion on which is the best book to purchase about the westside methods?
Also, how do you track your workouts? Do you have a template in excel or some type of training journal?[/quote]
Th obvious answer is The Book of Methods that Louie wrote. I read through that, and even with a pretty good understanding of the system, I got confused as shit with some of the stuff he said. The biggest problem people run into with their training is the planning of the training itself. Understanding periodization and adaption will greatly help your understanding. Supertraining by Stiff is awesome… warning you though, it will take a while to read. The Special Strength Training Manual for Coaches by Verkashansky (spell check) just came out. THAT is a great read. Check out whatever the newest version of Periodization by Bompa is. Bompa is a big linear periodization guy but his explanations of other training protocols are pretyy awesome. Pick up Block Periodization 2 as well.
There, that should keep you busy for the next 5 years or so. haha.
I keep and extremely detailed training log. I always have. Even when playing football and lax in high school, I wrote everything down. I probably have 10 500 page notebooks filled with shit. It’s nuts. But I know pretty much all of my numbers and records on pretty much every exercise. Ask me to add two really big numbers and I might pass out but I can tell you my best time for Lactate Tolerance Training with a close stance and a SSB with 365lbs for 25 sets of 2 off the top of my head… is just over 26mins. I’m a mess. haha.
So far this thread has a ridiculous amount of useful information.
The extra workouts in particular is something I’ve been wondering/considering for a while and I’ve been mostly putting it off dur to laziness, I think.
Thanks STB.
STB - In regards to extra workouts and “off” days.
As it stands now I’m in a GPP cycle, my base setup is:
ME Bench
Bodybuilder Back style workout (this just has great carryover to all my lifts so I’ve kept it in)
ME Lower
Off
DE Bench
DE Lower
Off
I’m looking to add in extra workouts but I’m wondering if I need a true “off” day? Just off, not doing anything type kind of day. Multiple ones a week? I’ve got a prowler and have though about adding it in on Sundays and maybe even Thursdays (my two off days).
Currently, I am right around 150lbs and have a squat, bench, deadlift of 335/265/415. Still pretty much a total newbie obviously. I don’t have a meet anytime in the foreseeable future and wish to stay at this weight so I can compete at 148lbs. Typically how would you cycle accumulation/intensification phases? Would you go 2 weeks accumulation, 3 weeks intensification, 1 week deload, and then repeat? I imagine that this is probably very individual but any general guidelines you can suggest would be helpful to use as a jumping off point.
Also, for figuring out the percentages used with DE work. I have generally seen the 50%/55%/60% numbers tossed around. Do we base these on competition maxes? I guess I am more curious to know when we should increase these weights since we don’t always use the competition lifts and our maxes should be increasing all the time.
Great thread. I actually signed up to T-Nation so I could contribute what little knowledge I have to this thread. I look forward to learning alot from yall. I get a bit tired hearing about how Westside isnt for the raw lifter. The best of luck to everyone
Any rough guidelines for those at commercial gyms with limited bars?
I’ve got plenty of bands to work with, but limited to Olympic bars, trap bars and another gym that has a cambered bar.
Right now I’ve been doing pull variations -trap, reverse, pull heights/deficits; changing box/stance on sqauts, FS, GM and zerchers. Also doing “Anderson” style versions of some of those too. Any input or thoughts on how to get away with this limited equipment would be awesome.
I know a SSB will save the shoulders, but so can high bar positioning on squats and a high bar positions makes me work hard to stay upright. Not sure if that helps any.
Do you use the standard assistance template and just the volume off your block? I mentioned this in the PM but I thought it’d be better to throw it in here to put the answer up for everyone.
EDIT: volume and exercise based off your block*
For example:
ME/DE Bench:
ME/DE movement
Triceps
Shoulders/Chest
Upper back/Lats
(Biceps maybe)
ME/DE Squat/Deadlift:
ME/DE movement
hamstrings
Low back
abs
(Quads maybe)
I have plenty of questions, but I think I’ll read this thread (and others) about four thousand times before I ask. It’s great to have a good resource like this.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
STB - In regards to extra workouts and “off” days.
As it stands now I’m in a GPP cycle, my base setup is:
ME Bench
Bodybuilder Back style workout (this just has great carryover to all my lifts so I’ve kept it in)
ME Lower
Off
DE Bench
DE Lower
Off
I’m looking to add in extra workouts but I’m wondering if I need a true “off” day? Just off, not doing anything type kind of day. Multiple ones a week? I’ve got a prowler and have though about adding it in on Sundays and maybe even Thursdays (my two off days).[/quote]
My personal thoughts on “off” days is, there are a lot of people out there stronger than me who have been at this a much longer time than I have. The only way I am going to catch up is to do more work than they do.
Just like I suggested before, start with one day a week on a non heavy training day, and hammer some weaknesses for 20-30 minutes. Try that for a couple weeks and see how you resond and recover. Then add in another one and see how that works. After a few months, start messing around with adding them in on your actual training days.
Just take it slow and don’t go nuts on the weight or volume.
[quote]nalgene1832 wrote:
Currently, I am right around 150lbs and have a squat, bench, deadlift of 335/265/415. Still pretty much a total newbie obviously. I don’t have a meet anytime in the foreseeable future and wish to stay at this weight so I can compete at 148lbs. Typically how would you cycle accumulation/intensification phases? Would you go 2 weeks accumulation, 3 weeks intensification, 1 week deload, and then repeat? I imagine that this is probably very individual but any general guidelines you can suggest would be helpful to use as a jumping off point.
Also, for figuring out the percentages used with DE work. I have generally seen the 50%/55%/60% numbers tossed around. Do we base these on competition maxes? I guess I am more curious to know when we should increase these weights since we don’t always use the competition lifts and our maxes should be increasing all the time.
[/quote]
For just starting out, with no meet in the immediate future, I would suggest at least 4 weeks of Accumulation and 2 weeks of Intensification. Then deload, then start over again. GPP and form first.
Those numbers, 50%, 55%, 60%, (with 25% in bands, chains, or weight releasers), are guidlines for a speed strength wave. With how long you should be doing the Accumulation Block starting out, I would suggest one week of Lactate Tolerance Training (50% for 20-25 sets of 2 for squatting) then start up the strength speed wave the following week.
The weight on the bar on dynamic days should only go up once you break some PRs in a meet. So, yes, base DE percentages off your competition max’s. If you havent done a meet yet… go do one. ha!
Also, take this from someone who has done many different methods of training for several years each before starting using Wesitside, your max’s arent increasing all the time. Our bodies have numerous hormonal, circadium, and other cycles that are easily thrown out of whack from day to day activity. If it were as easy as lift more=get stronger then everyone could just compete every single weekend and hit PRs every week forever.
[quote]Chicksan wrote:
Great thread. I actually signed up to T-Nation so I could contribute what little knowledge I have to this thread. I look forward to learning alot from yall. I get a bit tired hearing about how Westside isnt for the raw lifter. The best of luck to everyone[/quote]
I have a raw meet this weekend. I havent done one in a few years. This should be ridiculous.
[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Any rough guidelines for those at commercial gyms with limited bars?
I’ve got plenty of bands to work with, but limited to Olympic bars, trap bars and another gym that has a cambered bar.
Right now I’ve been doing pull variations -trap, reverse, pull heights/deficits; changing box/stance on sqauts, FS, GM and zerchers. Also doing “Anderson” style versions of some of those too. Any input or thoughts on how to get away with this limited equipment would be awesome.
[/quote]
My best advice is to get creative. You sound like you have a good amount of variaiton in mind already. Taking one exercise and giving yourself three different grip width or foot stances can increase that lift to 3 different variations. Add chains, thats now 9 different variaitons for one exercise. Add bands, now its 18. Bands and chains, now its 27. Choas method, now its 36. See what I am saying? Talk to the owners and see what you can get away with as far as bands, chains, saving up some money and bringing your own bars in.
I had to train in a commercial gym for a few years between ending my undergrad and starting my masters. The gym I found was awesome. The owner was so jacked up that there were guys going there that wanted to lift heavy. We had a corner of the gym with all our bars, chains, box squat box, all kinds of shit. My training partners and I were often the headline in the gym newsletter. haha. I know some people arent so lucky but youve got to work with what youve got.
[quote]PlainPat wrote:
Do you use the standard assistance template and just the volume off your block? I mentioned this in the PM but I thought it’d be better to throw it in here to put the answer up for everyone.
EDIT: volume and exercise based off your block*
For example:
ME/DE Bench:
ME/DE movement
Triceps
Shoulders/Chest
Upper back/Lats
(Biceps maybe)
ME/DE Squat/Deadlift:
ME/DE movement
hamstrings
Low back
abs
(Quads maybe)
[/quote]
For the intensification block and the transformation block, those look perfect to me. Sorry I suck at checking my messages. haha. I have different weaknesses so my set up is a little different. Just spend extra time (sets and reps) on the stuff you suck at.
Thoughts on using RE work instead of DE work for the bench press (i.e. WS4SB)? Maybe not complete replacing but say alternating each week?