The Westside Method Thread

So, just finished DE Lower day on week 1 of my accumulation block. For DE work I did:

BUffalo Bar parallel Box wide stance squats with 50% of max with minis through the safety pins for 10x2
Removed minis and did 10x2 for a total of 20x2. Minimal rest between all sets (30-45s) except when removing the minis (I gave myself a minute rest there)

Went immediately into wide sumo speed pulls (I pull conventional) for 40% of max + 1 chain for 15x1. Pretty much n orest between them - just re-set.

kinda high volume RE work, nothing worth mentioning.

My ass is on fire and I wanna puke my guts. Taking a dump tomorrow will be, well, interesting! I…hate you…so much STB!!!

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Yes, that actually answers my question. Another thing - if I’m not mistaken, ME main lift’s volume should be 30% of the weekly main lift’s volume, right ? Do I start counting after 90% of 1rm or sooner ? If sooner, when ?

Also, for a raw bencher, which muscles are used most in the middle of the lift ? In addition to this, should I still try to keep elbows as tucked as possible in raw benching ? Currently, I flare out elbows at about … maybee 75degrees, cause when I tuck them in, the bar drops on my abs and there’s no fucking way I can push it :confused:
Thanks in advance, best thread on T-Nation so far.[/quote]

You will drive yourself nuts if you keep track of volume that strictly. It is a good idea to be as detailed as possible but don’t over think it to the point it messes with your head and messes with your training.

That being said, start counting it on your first attempt on ME day. This was touched on before but, treat ME workouts like a meet. Give yourself three attempts on whatever your lift is for the day: an easy opener, something close to your personal best, destroy your old record. Only count the volume on those final sets. This will get crazy when doing 5rms so, I would suggest not even paying attention to ME day volume during that part of your training. Keep track of your 3rm and 1rm max effort day volumes.

For benching, it depends where you put your hands on the bar. Most of the time, the reason a bench is missed is a technique issue. So make sure you arent just getting loose as shit on the bench when the weight gets heavy in your hands. If your technique is good, work your triceps more, from every angle you can possibly think of, with the heaviest weight you can hold on to. Having gigantic/strong arms is key for big raw benches.

As far as your elbows, it sounds like you already know what to do. If you tuck so hard the bar is sitting on your thighs, then thats probably not going to help your total. Just work with whatever angle allows you to move the most weight (without it turning into a ‘chest press’). Personally, my equipped and raw bench are about the same technique. Hard tuck on the way down, try to rip the bar apart/slam myself away from the bar, and drive in a straight line back to the start. The difference between shirted and not shirted is where the bar lands on my body (lower in a shirt, higher without a shirt). Anyway, like I said, just do what allows you to move the most weight, be consistant with your form, and increase your total.[/quote]
Thanks, brah. My grip is thumbs 2cm from the smooth part of the olympic bar. Pretty narrow tbh.
Last question - can you recommend a few exercises for the middle part of the lift (benching) ? That’s what keeps me from putting maybe another 10kilos on the bar and I can’t seem to fix it.[/quote]

That all depends on how long your arms are and what your range of motion is. A 2 board works for me, because I have short arms. A 3 board might work better for you if you have longer arms. Floor press is always a great bet and along with dead benches from wherever your sticking point is. Lots of dumbbell work is great for work off the chest, an area where almost everybody, regardless of raw or equipped, can struggle with at some point in their training career.

CS[/quote]
Thanks. Gotta find some nails and make a few boards then!

[quote]mlekava000 wrote:
So, just finished DE Lower day on week 1 of my accumulation block. For DE work I did:

BUffalo Bar parallel Box wide stance squats with 50% of max with minis through the safety pins for 10x2
Removed minis and did 10x2 for a total of 20x2. Minimal rest between all sets (30-45s) except when removing the minis (I gave myself a minute rest there)

Went immediately into wide sumo speed pulls (I pull conventional) for 40% of max + 1 chain for 15x1. Pretty much n orest between them - just re-set.

kinda high volume RE work, nothing worth mentioning.

My ass is on fire and I wanna puke my guts. Taking a dump tomorrow will be, well, interesting! I…hate you…so much STB!!![/quote]

I was shocked I was able to do so well on ME lower today because after DE on friday I was so sore all weekend. I had to fucking foam roll every hour. Also, I can see the importance of XXXtra workouts. If I hadn’t gotten in and squatted the bar yesterday for a couple sets I wouldn’t have been able to do so well today.

Just a quick question, guys - how many inches height should I make my boards ? Does a 2board mean 2inch height ?

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Just a quick question, guys - how many inches height should I make my boards ? Does a 2board mean 2inch height ? [/quote]

Pretty sure you use 2x4’s and use it so each board is 2 inches high. Not sure.

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Just a quick question, guys - how many inches height should I make my boards ? Does a 2board mean 2inch height ? [/quote]

Pretty sure you use 2x4’s and use it so each board is 2 inches high. Not sure.[/quote]

Yikes! A 2x4 is actually around 1.5x3.5.

And most people use 2x6’s or 2x8’s

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Just a quick question, guys - how many inches height should I make my boards ? Does a 2board mean 2inch height ? [/quote]

Pretty sure you use 2x4’s and use it so each board is 2 inches high. Not sure.[/quote]

Yikes! A 2x4 is actually around 1.5x3.5.

And most people use 2x6’s or 2x8’s[/quote]

Yeah shit I probably should’ve noted that as I figured that out when I made boxes. But It shouldn’t really matter as long as you keep records and always use the same boards.

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Just a quick question, guys - how many inches height should I make my boards ? Does a 2board mean 2inch height ? [/quote]

Pretty sure you use 2x4’s and use it so each board is 2 inches high. Not sure.[/quote]

Yikes! A 2x4 is actually around 1.5x3.5.

And most people use 2x6’s or 2x8’s[/quote]
So it’s 1.5" height and 3.5" widht ?

Storm, I was able to draw up a training cycle that would lead up to my meet in April. Would you mind looking it over for me and see if it’s okay? Thanks in advance.

CS

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Just a quick question, guys - how many inches height should I make my boards ? Does a 2board mean 2inch height ? [/quote]

Pretty sure you use 2x4’s and use it so each board is 2 inches high. Not sure.[/quote]

Yikes! A 2x4 is actually around 1.5x3.5.

And most people use 2x6’s or 2x8’s[/quote]
So it’s 1.5" height and 3.5" widht ?
[/quote]

Yes.

SO a few more questions. Hate that I’m overloading you with them. I’m definitely going to build my library and start with the book of methods but that might have to wait until this summer since I just spent $600+ on books for this semester and I need more bands to actually perform westside. But here they are:

  1. What is the reason for performing high rep work sometimes right after ME work before moving on to a heavier supplementary exercise? Such as high rep DB press for 30+ reps before ~6RM narrow grip bench for example. Won’t the high reps wear out the muscles before the following exercise which you are going relatively heavy and thus I would consider more important? For the past year or two I haven’t performed reps above 8 so that only Type II fibers are focused on and I’m starting to realize the problem with this as higher reps and tensions will help build tendon and ligament strength. (This fear of developing type I fibers or using energy for endurance comes from college baseball when I was having to run a good bit and my squat would stay stagnant or move down. I’ve since realized its definitely needed )

  2. If you pull conventional in competitions, would it be ok to pull semi-sumo or sumo for a ME exercise? I pulled semi-sumo for 6RM for my supplementary work tonight and I can definitely see how building this weakness will help my conventional pull and even squat (485 conv DL compared to 315 for 6 reps semi-sumo = huge difference and feel very week)

  3. Would you consider front squats a good exercise to go for max reps (>15)after ME or DE work? If not, what are some other lower exercises that are good for high rep work after? I’ve been through this whole thread once and can’t remember if a list of good high rep lower exercises is in there but as this thread is now 15 pgs long, it would take a good amount of time to find it.

  4. Lastly, and I guess this isn’t exactly westside related, I planned on doing a competition in 3 weeks (push pull as stated earlier) and I feel like with the holidays and such that I have only moved up a little bit on my deadlift (really want 500 but don’t feel I have it). Would you suggest I go ahead and compete? As I said I have 3 weeks so I have some more time to work on lifts but not a lot. Its $120 (60 for each) so thats a good bit of money to spend. Problem is with the intensity of this semester that I probably won’t compete again until summer so I want to get another comp in (only did deadlift in my lone comp). I will set a Meet PR in deadlift but may not get 500 and I’ll set some numbers for bench but still not sure.

Thanks for your time and responses. BTW I’ve realized that a B.S. in ex sci won’t really prepare you with the best info for getting stronger and of course PT is solely to provide PT to help people rehab. SO while a strong base is there, definitely need to follow your suggestions and learn from the best with other books and reading. Hope to get some as soon as some extra money comes along

Is it alright to use the squat, bench press and deadlift as ME lifts if you are still a noob? Like squat, bench and dead of 265, 205 and 290 @ 155lb bw

[quote]mlekava000 wrote:
So, just finished DE Lower day on week 1 of my accumulation block. For DE work I did:

BUffalo Bar parallel Box wide stance squats with 50% of max with minis through the safety pins for 10x2
Removed minis and did 10x2 for a total of 20x2. Minimal rest between all sets (30-45s) except when removing the minis (I gave myself a minute rest there)

Went immediately into wide sumo speed pulls (I pull conventional) for 40% of max + 1 chain for 15x1. Pretty much n orest between them - just re-set.

kinda high volume RE work, nothing worth mentioning.

My ass is on fire and I wanna puke my guts. Taking a dump tomorrow will be, well, interesting! I…hate you…so much STB!!![/quote]

Yea, the first 2-3 times you do this, don’t plan to do anything too physically productive for the following few days. Way to survive it though. haha.

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]mlekava000 wrote:
So, just finished DE Lower day on week 1 of my accumulation block. For DE work I did:

BUffalo Bar parallel Box wide stance squats with 50% of max with minis through the safety pins for 10x2
Removed minis and did 10x2 for a total of 20x2. Minimal rest between all sets (30-45s) except when removing the minis (I gave myself a minute rest there)

Went immediately into wide sumo speed pulls (I pull conventional) for 40% of max + 1 chain for 15x1. Pretty much n orest between them - just re-set.

kinda high volume RE work, nothing worth mentioning.

My ass is on fire and I wanna puke my guts. Taking a dump tomorrow will be, well, interesting! I…hate you…so much STB!!![/quote]

I was shocked I was able to do so well on ME lower today because after DE on friday I was so sore all weekend. I had to fucking foam roll every hour. Also, I can see the importance of XXXtra workouts. If I hadn’t gotten in and squatted the bar yesterday for a couple sets I wouldn’t have been able to do so well today.[/quote]

Definitely. Extra workouts are huge. Once the LTT stuff stops feeling like death, you will notice a huge increase in work production and a huge decrease in the ability to comfortably wear jeans.

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Storm, I was able to draw up a training cycle that would lead up to my meet in April. Would you mind looking it over for me and see if it’s okay? Thanks in advance.

CS

My only suggestion would be, don’t hit your openers in training. Go for around 75% for a couple singles and work on speed and getting your technique dialed in. There are only two reasons you would need to hit your openers in training:

  1. Lack of confidence in yourself
  2. Lack of confidence in your training

Say you decided to work up to your openers 2 weeks out. Now you are facing two VERY big problems that I have seen about 50 million time. Seriously, 99% of the people at the meet fall into these two catergories:

  1. The lifts are easy in training but then they feel heavy in the meet. This will shatter confidence and get you second guessing yourself. These are the guys that walk around all fucking day saying, “I don’t understand, I hit that for a triple in training.”

  2. You don’t get the opener you want in training. Again, completely destroys your confidence. This is the more likeley scenario because, just coming off the intensification block, your body SHOULD be completely wrecked. The recovery the few weeks and the supercompensation effect after ceasing very intense training creates the Delayed Transformation Principle. Basically, this is just training optimally to peak at meet time. This seriously gets f’ed with if your confidence it thrown off.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Everything else looks spot on.

[quote]cscsDPT17 wrote:
SO a few more questions. Hate that I’m overloading you with them. I’m definitely going to build my library and start with the book of methods but that might have to wait until this summer since I just spent $600+ on books for this semester and I need more bands to actually perform westside. But here they are:

  1. What is the reason for performing high rep work sometimes right after ME work before moving on to a heavier supplementary exercise? Such as high rep DB press for 30+ reps before ~6RM narrow grip bench for example. Won’t the high reps wear out the muscles before the following exercise which you are going relatively heavy and thus I would consider more important? For the past year or two I haven’t performed reps above 8 so that only Type II fibers are focused on and I’m starting to realize the problem with this as higher reps and tensions will help build tendon and ligament strength. (This fear of developing type I fibers or using energy for endurance comes from college baseball when I was having to run a good bit and my squat would stay stagnant or move down. I’ve since realized its definitely needed )

  2. If you pull conventional in competitions, would it be ok to pull semi-sumo or sumo for a ME exercise? I pulled semi-sumo for 6RM for my supplementary work tonight and I can definitely see how building this weakness will help my conventional pull and even squat (485 conv DL compared to 315 for 6 reps semi-sumo = huge difference and feel very week)

  3. Would you consider front squats a good exercise to go for max reps (>15)after ME or DE work? If not, what are some other lower exercises that are good for high rep work after? I’ve been through this whole thread once and can’t remember if a list of good high rep lower exercises is in there but as this thread is now 15 pgs long, it would take a good amount of time to find it.

  4. Lastly, and I guess this isn’t exactly westside related, I planned on doing a competition in 3 weeks (push pull as stated earlier) and I feel like with the holidays and such that I have only moved up a little bit on my deadlift (really want 500 but don’t feel I have it). Would you suggest I go ahead and compete? As I said I have 3 weeks so I have some more time to work on lifts but not a lot. Its $120 (60 for each) so thats a good bit of money to spend. Problem is with the intensity of this semester that I probably won’t compete again until summer so I want to get another comp in (only did deadlift in my lone comp). I will set a Meet PR in deadlift but may not get 500 and I’ll set some numbers for bench but still not sure.

Thanks for your time and responses. BTW I’ve realized that a B.S. in ex sci won’t really prepare you with the best info for getting stronger and of course PT is solely to provide PT to help people rehab. SO while a strong base is there, definitely need to follow your suggestions and learn from the best with other books and reading. Hope to get some as soon as some extra money comes along[/quote]

  1. This is an extremely hard concept for people to understand. Fiber types can’t switch, but the heavy myosin and light myocin chains can take on characteristics of other fiber types based on the stimulus (training) they are exposed to. The amount of volume is so low and the intensity must be so un-worldy high that most people won’t ever just be developing type II or any fast twitch. A purely fast twitch developing program would have to be max force and tension everyday for a very long time, which is probably why the Bulgarian Methods work so well for olympic weightlifters. Any way, this is not practical for powerlifting and would kill a normal person. That being said, the way most people train for powerlifting is developing both fiber types, mostly slow twitch, but the coordination between the two is greatly improved with higher volumes and higher intensities. Personally, I think a very large part of peaking for a meet is focusing solely on speed of movement in order to push the slow twitch fibers to develop more fast twitch characteristics. So, whats my point? Just do things that are awesome and that fucking DESTROY your weaknesses. Smart training will have you at your strongest for the meet. Everything before that is just for building a strong base of ‘motor potential’ so that you can survive meet day.

Does that make sense?

To answer the first question, yes, the high rep work will wear you out. I think body builders call this pre-exausht. When the second exercises is heavy and it is a lagging muscle group, like triceps for bench press, the prime movers will be extremely fatigued. Your body will have to find a way to do the exercise anyway. Overtime, the adaptation response is bigger muscle size and better coordination. This means that lagging muscle group isn’t lagging anymore.

I understand where you are coming from with the fiber type concern but it’s not as cut and dry as ‘Low reps and speed=Fast Twitch and High reps and slow=Slow Twitch.’ You know what part of the population has the 2nd highest cross-sectional area of type 2 fibers? Olympic sprinters. You know who has the first? Morbidly obese people who haven’t moved out of bed in a few years and people in wheelchairs. As you can see, there is WAY more going on that just type of training.

  1. Absolutely. Pulling with different foot positions builds strength at many different leverages. Everyone on earth has weak internal hip rotators, sumo pulls work the hell out of these.

  2. Anything that develops something you are bad at. For me, for example, I can pull 900lbs off the floor but it stops dead right above my knees. My weakness in my pull is the lockout (pushing my glutes through and upper back strength). RDL’s work both of these. This is usually the only higher rep lower exercise I do along with some free squats every once in a while. You can front squat, you can do whatever you want. Just make sure you have a good reason for doing it.

  3. I’m always a fan of just going and doing shit. Expecially to those newer to the sport, go compete as often as you want/can. Just starting out, you probably won’t be going for elite totals and world records but a lot of meet experience can help you reach those goals a little faster.

There is so much good literature out there on training that most of your professors probably haven’t even ever heard of. It’s sad. I was pretty lucky, my metabolism/human phys. professor used to train with Matt Wenning at Ball State. If it wasn’t for him and those classes, I probably would have killed somebody.

[quote]XArena wrote:
Is it alright to use the squat, bench press and deadlift as ME lifts if you are still a noob? Like squat, bench and dead of 265, 205 and 290 @ 155lb bw[/quote]

Things that are more important for someone like you:

Developing the strongest conditioning/gpp base possible
Eating like there is no tomorrow
Learning everything you can about training

As the weights go up in training, they will go up on the platform. You will get plenty of technique work DE day. Like I have said before, doing the competition lifts in training is compensating for a confidecne problem.

I don’t know if this has been addressed before but keep in mind this is not a ‘Whatever Number of Weeks Squat Cycle.’ These are training principles that will take years to develop you to full potential (this is the same with any good training program. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.) So, if you want to find out if it works, go through the blocks a few times, do a couple of meets, see if your total increases, and then adjust accordingly.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]XArena wrote:
Is it alright to use the squat, bench press and deadlift as ME lifts if you are still a noob? Like squat, bench and dead of 265, 205 and 290 @ 155lb bw[/quote]

Things that are more important for someone like you:

Developing the strongest conditioning/gpp base possible
Eating like there is no tomorrow
Learning everything you can about training

As the weights go up in training, they will go up on the platform. You will get plenty of technique work DE day. Like I have said before, doing the competition lifts in training is compensating for a confidecne problem.

I don’t know if this has been addressed before but keep in mind this is not a ‘Whatever Number of Weeks Squat Cycle.’ These are training principles that will take years to develop you to full potential (this is the same with any good training program. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.) So, if you want to find out if it works, go through the blocks a few times, do a couple of meets, see if your total increases, and then adjust accordingly.[/quote]

I believe what you are saying, but i’m just curious, why is developing the strongest gpp base possible important? I’m sorry if this sounds stupid

Do you know why the same weight is used for all DE sets? Specifically for bench days, a training partner of mine used to pyramid his weights up every 2-3 sets. For example, this would be an example training day:

Bench against Doubled Monster Mini’s
185 2x3
195 2x3
205 2x3
225 2x3

I asked him why he did that and I never got a straight answer. He was one of the first people to ever bench 700 so I figured he must know something about training. Do you have any thoughts on the issue?

And another question. Just did my ME lower body and found out I couldn’t do a single GHR!@!@!@!! (we don’t have the machine so I get someone to sit on my feet). Did 3 sets of 8 negatives. What would you recommend ? Should I keep doing negatives or switch exercises ?