The War With Iran - Day 1

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

you know as well as i, that in this coutry it is our compassion that will not allow such a thing to happen. have you even considered mass opinion? you are most certainly right we are not iraq. the iraqi people did’nt give a mad fuk about the loss of innocent life, they are used to it. death is a fact of life, a truth that the peoples of the middle east are all to familiar with.it will not be tolerated by the citizens of our country. how many mass invasions can you name that did not work? so far you have mentioned only iraq, we know there result, and must i remind you whom they were supplied by? do think that might have something to do with the resentment they feel towards us? 1 million lives lost. not something you forget about within a generation.

iran is a situation this country has never delt with. the only hope for sucess, which happens to be a specialty of our nation,is to insight a revolution within the country. the youth of Iran do not share the beliefs of the hard liner clerics. so who will we fight? our possible allies? i don’t think so.Iraq was ruined long before we got there. Iran is fresh and ready, although their military ability pales in comparrison to our mighty force, never underestimate a desperate man. especially when we are otherwise commited.

102

actually, i must correct myself. we have delt with this type of situation in Iran before. khomeni ring a bell? we made this what it is. we took the shah out of power for diregarding our orders. who did we replace him with? exactly, and his sucessors are still in power. maybe we can get it right this time. i hope for the love of my family abroad that we do.there will be no war. not in the very near future anyways.

103

[quote]hedo wrote:
mazilla wrote:
have any of you heard of the basiji in Iran? being an American born Iranian citizen maybe i can shed some light on the culture that some of us might think we can simply march across with the same across with the same results as Iraq,(although it is a pathetic display of our military intellect). teh basiji are a force of religious devotees who turned the table in the Iran Iraq war.

the Basiji are an unarmed force of martyr’s of ALL age’s who’s sole strategy is to overwhelm opposition with sheer numbers. they aquire their weapons from fallen soldiers on the battlefield. today the number of Basiji exceeds seven million, on top of the 800,000 military personnel. Are we as a military prepared to slaughter 8 million people? that is what it will take.

Thousands of years of brutal military history will not be toppled so easily. Don’t mistake for a second my love for my country, I AM AN AMERICAN,i will die an american, if i should be called upon to fight the ancestors of my ancestors then so be it. all i can do is hope that our foolish president will stop over extending our resources, that is why rome, greece, persia and all other ancient great civilizations have been reduced to shadows of what they once were.

wow, i am bouncing all over the place here. i’m just gonna stop.(don’t say anything about my grammatical mistakes, this is not english class.geez)

Massed infantry assaults by unarmed or semi-armed troops against Armored mechanized forces are the definition of stupidity. They will unfortunately perish in large numbers. The US forces they will face are not the Iraqi’s. They will not run out of supplies, run away or be defeated.

Human wave attacks against US forces have a history of one sided defeats. I wouldn’t bet the Iranian forces would fare any better.

I’ve said before the Iranians will either wind up with a bomb or a war when this is all over. Unfortunately they seem to have made the decision already.

[/quote]

Nice post Hedo…methinks you are right…

And Rome, Greece, and Persia didn’t have the machine gun or the tank. Makes human waves into piles of dead stuff.

Although I truly hope George II does avoid this war in favor of a different solution.

104

[quote]Nice post Hedo…methinks you are right…

And Rome, Greece, and Persia didn’t have the machine gun or the tank. Makes human waves into piles of dead stuff.

Although I truly hope George II does avoid this war in favor of a different solution.[/quote]
what is an rpg to a tank that a spear is not to a chariot? it is all relavent. all the wealth and all the power could not save them. greed is a double edged sword that no civilization can wield(don’t know how to spell that). i fear we share their fate, i hope that we don’t but i don’t have much faith. we must use our brains on this one not our brawn. after Iran who will we target next? before they target us.

do you think the rest of the world is in favor of our country being #1? uhh how about korea, are they next? what of thier allies? what of Iran’s allies(although they seem to be turning thier backs one by one). the point is we cannot take on the world. when we are at our weakest someone will take advantage of us. think about it

105

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Although I truly hope George II does avoid this war in favor of a different solution.[/quote]

What would your solution be? Assuming Iran is determined to develop nukes.

106

[quote]
And Rome, Greece, and Persia didn’t have the machine gun or the tank. Makes human waves into piles of dead stuff.[/quote]

Iraq had all of the above. hello.

107

revolution is the only plan that i can think of. then again i am not the president, nor an adviser. i am only one man. i don’t know the right answer, but i know the wrong one.

108

[quote]mazilla wrote:
revolution is the only plan that i can think of. then again i am not the president, nor an adviser. i am only one man. i don’t know the right answer, but i know the wrong one.[/quote]

After the way Bush I bailed on the Iraqi’s after the Gulf War, do you think there is a chance we could incite an uprising in Iran?

109

Surgical strikes on the command and control infrstructure of the hardliners might allow a revolution to get out of control before it is put down.

However, I’m not convinced a bunch of young idealists of university age would have the ability to act and/or consolidate power if they indeed did.

They would need allies in the military who would then have to be happy taking orders from snot-nosed idealists.

110

you forget that there is a generation still there whom during the shah’s reign lived a life full of western influence. the same people who at twenty were dancing in western style disco’s and what not. those people are well into thier 50’s now, making them slightly above “snot nosed”, although i have no information as to the condition of thier noses, those are the people who have tasted western lifestyle, and they enjoyed it. add them to the snott, and you’ve got one hellacious booger.

111

[quote]mazilla wrote:
Nice post Hedo…methinks you are right…

And Rome, Greece, and Persia didn’t have the machine gun or the tank. Makes human waves into piles of dead stuff.

Although I truly hope George II does avoid this war in favor of a different solution.
what is an rpg to a tank that a spear is not to a chariot? it is all relavent. all the wealth and all the power could not save them. greed is a double edged sword that no civilization can wield(don’t know how to spell that). i fear we share their fate, i hope that we don’t but i don’t have much faith. we must use our brains on this one not our brawn. after Iran who will we target next? before they target us.

do you think the rest of the world is in favor of our country being #1? uhh how about korea, are they next? what of thier allies? what of Iran’s allies(although they seem to be turning thier backs one by one). the point is we cannot take on the world. when we are at our weakest someone will take advantage of us. think about it
[/quote]

Hey I hear you man. Read my other posts; I’m quite aware of America’s imperialist tendencies, and I don’t like it at all. I’ve been in arguments recently about the nobleness, or lack thereof, of Che Guevara, and I have never been a real capiatlist.

However, this goes beyond just that. Iran is a serious threat only because they are acting extremely aggressive, and are trying to inflame anti-Semitic fury. While I am not in favor of Israel at all, “Wiping them off the planet” is the wrong thing to do.

Iraq was unjust (my opinion) because they were no real threat. However, Iran is not the same thing. This is a more complex issue.

112

Well, you might be right, but people with children and grandchildren are rarely revolutionaries.

They are too comfortable and they have so much to lose.

It is generally the young that are willing to throw away their lives on ideals…

113

Iranians have a tendancy to become arrogant when they are challenged. i do beileve that it is of the utmost importance that they not possess a nuke. unfortunatley it has been shown that without a nuke, you don’t even get to play with the big boys. if Iran wishes to pull itself from it’s decline(hundreds of years in the making) and put it’s self back on the list of powerful countries, it will have to possess nuclear capabilities, not a bomb so to speak, but they do need the resource. it’s sad to see how the mistakes our predicessors have created such a problem. if we did nothing wrong, we would have nothing to fear. there are so many other countries that have no quarrel with iran. not us though. we made our bed, but we don’t want to lay in it.woops it’s not so fun being the world police when the shit hit’s the fan. oh yea, f france. i just wanted to say that if they did not possess nuclear capabilities they would’nt be shit. they really piss me off. making demands like they are sombody. no offense canadian people, i don’t know how you feel about the french. just my opinion. no need to get all crazy about it.back on topic.

114

[quote]vroom wrote:
those people are well into thier 50’s now, making them slightly above “snot nosed”, although i have no information as to the condition of thier noses, those are the people who have tasted western lifestyle, and they enjoyed it. add them to the snott, and you’ve got one hellacious booger.

Well, you might be right, but people with children and grandchildren are rarely revolutionaries.

They are too comfortable and they have so much to lose.

It is generally the young that are willing to throw away their lives on ideals…[/quote]

very true. but the peolpe are not like the people you see around you. women, children, old people, all will pick up arms in the name of their country. except for the very wealthy, who will certainly flee and return to a new empire.
i think that our only hope is revolution. but we must ensure that they will not obtain nuclear capabilities, until we can be assured of thier intent’s. if we(and our allies) can have a nuclear bomb, why can’t other compliant friendly nations? what seperates france, and britain from iran? we can trust them but not others? there histories are far from shameless.

115

[quote]mazilla wrote:
Nice post Hedo…methinks you are right…

And Rome, Greece, and Persia didn’t have the machine gun or the tank. Makes human waves into piles of dead stuff.

Although I truly hope George II does avoid this war in favor of a different solution.
what is an rpg to a tank that a spear is not to a chariot? it is all relavent. all the wealth and all the power could not save them. greed is a double edged sword that no civilization can wield(don’t know how to spell that). i fear we share their fate, i hope that we don’t but i don’t have much faith. we must use our brains on this one not our brawn. after Iran who will we target next? before they target us.

do you think the rest of the world is in favor of our country being #1? uhh how about korea, are they next? what of thier allies? what of Iran’s allies(although they seem to be turning thier backs one by one). the point is we cannot take on the world. when we are at our weakest someone will take advantage of us. think about it
[/quote]

An rpg is inneffective against the M-1 tank.

Iran has no allies.

We are far from being at our weakest?

116

There’s a foreign policy expert named Thomas Barnett who has written a couple of books recently that have shook things up a bit. Regarding Iran, he thinks that it is a given that Iran will get nukes. A full scale military invasion is pretty much a no go, and the program is too dispersed and embedded for targeted bombing. In addition, Russia, China, and India will do whatever they can to obstruct sanctions, etc. because they either need Iran’s money or oil.

Given these suppositions, he argues that the West should accept a nuclear Iran as a fait accompli. Furthermore, he argues that we need to work towards improved relations with Iran, to help them become a more integrated member of the world community. This is important because he believes if Iran is essentially blocked off from the rest of the world and they do inevitably acquire nukes, we would have another N. Korea situation where Iran would be more likely to sell nuclear technology. Furthermore, he argues that there is no hope of ever really reforming the Middle East with a nuclear Iran that is essentially a declared enemy, and reforming the Middle East is essentially the reason we are there.

I think it’s an interesting argument, even though I am not sure I agree with it. But it’s a different way of looking at this situation than I have seen elsewhere.

117

[quote]brushga wrote:
There’s a foreign policy expert named Thomas Barnett who has written a couple of books recently that have shook things up a bit. Regarding Iran, he thinks that it is a given that Iran will get nukes. A full scale military invasion is pretty much a no go, and the program is too dispersed and embedded for targeted bombing. In addition, Russia, China, and India will do whatever they can to obstruct sanctions, etc. because they either need Iran’s money or oil.

Given these suppositions, he argues that the West should accept a nuclear Iran as a fait accompli. Furthermore, he argues that we need to work towards improved relations with Iran, to help them become a more integrated member of the world community. This is important because he believes if Iran is essentially blocked off from the rest of the world and they do inevitably acquire nukes, we would have another N. Korea situation where Iran would be more likely to sell nuclear technology. Furthermore, he argues that there is no hope of ever really reforming the Middle East with a nuclear Iran that is essentially a declared enemy, and reforming the Middle East is essentially the reason we are there.

I think it’s an interesting argument, even though I am not sure I agree with it. But it’s a different way of looking at this situation than I have seen elsewhere.[/quote]

They will not be allowed to acquire nukes.

It is too dangerous for them to have a nuke because they will use it or give it to a proxy. It’s all well and good to debate the issue and hope for the best but in the end common sense needs to take over. Either the US or Israel will settle the matter. They are the two countries that have both the ability and the will to fix the problem.

I really hope diplomcy works but I am not optomistic on that happening.

118

[quote]hedo wrote:
They will not be allowed to acquire nukes.

It is too dangerous for them to have a nuke because they will use it or give it to a proxy. It’s all well and good to debate the issue and hope for the best but in the end common sense needs to take over. Either the US or Israel will settle the matter. They are the two countries that have both the ability and the will to fix the problem.

I really hope diplomcy works but I am not optomistic on that happening.

[/quote]

I certainly hope Iran doesn’t get the nuke. But do you think it is a certainty that they don’t? How would Israel be able to seriously derail their program? Would the U.S. invade? I don’t know the answer to those questions, but watching the tube and reading the papers leads me to believe the answer is no to both questions. That being the case I think we have to think about what we do IF Iran gets a nuke. Pakistan and N. Korea pulled it off, and in this case Iran has some major support from China and Russia, and India somewhat.

119

[quote]rainjack wrote:
vroom wrote:
I question whether they care enough about our culture and belief systems to do anything. However, they do care about what they believe the effects that our culture has on them…

When they refer to us as “The Great Satan” and declare a jihad on us, and fly planes into our buildings - I’m thinking they hate us personally.

But go ahead and try to make this more complex than it really is. I know that’s the only way you can feel like you are contributing to the discussion. [/quote]

There were no Iranians on any planes being flown into buildings. Get your shit straight. I have family in Iran, and none of them is a terrorist. That goes for 99% of the population. They all think the president is crazy. If any of you actually talk to an Iranian go ahead and ask what they think, they’ll tell you that no ones agrees with the government. It’s like the US, there’s a small group of people supporting bush and all his crazy war garbage and wars on terror and then there’s the rest who can’t stand it and think he’s crazy. But what can the people that don’t like bush do? Are they supposed to protest? People in Iran are in the same position.

You guys have to keep in mind that there are normal real people living in that country that all of you think can just be killed. If that’s the way you feel, I hope someday the same thing happens to your loved ones.

120

"There were no Iranians on any planes being flown into buildings. Get your shit straight. I have family in Iran, and none of them is a terrorist. That goes for 99% of the population. They all think the president is crazy. If any of you actually talk to an Iranian go ahead and ask what they think, they’ll tell you that no ones agrees with the government. It’s like the US, there’s a small group of people supporting bush and all his crazy war garbage and wars on terror and then there’s the rest who can’t stand it and think he’s crazy. But what can the people that don’t like bush do? Are they supposed to protest? People in Iran are in the same position.

You guys have to keep in mind that there are normal real people living in that country that all of you think can just be killed. If that’s the way you feel, I hope someday the same thing happens to your loved ones.
[/quote]

it is easy for people with family in Iran, to tell it like it is. we must not forget that the majority of people only have the exposure they would recieve from cnn(we’ll not cnn anymore), or other unreliable one sided “news” channels. all they are allowed to see is the entire middle east summed up in one word “terrorist”.
it is not there fault, it is due to an intentional lack of information on the part of those who supply it. i’m not trying to get all conspiracy theory on your asses, but it has to be true. new’s says there are WMD’s people believe, president makes his move. no WMD’s, people believe, president says woops, and waits. it has started again. same stupid ass cycle. it’s like a delay, by the time the nation as a whole say’s “oh shit, we fucked up”, the big moves have been made. it never ends. how sad. back on topic. we need the info as a nation, only then can we come together to make the right choice. as long as we see what they want us to see we are but puppets.by the way, if the choice is israel, or the U.S. attacking, there is no choice. they are one in the same. unfortunately. it would have been Iran as our ally, had things not gone soo wrong. then we would be talking about israel.(who also have ties to terrorist’s)