The War With Iran - Day 1

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]vroom wrote:
I question whether they care enough about our culture and belief systems to do anything. However, they do care about what they believe the effects that our culture has on them…[/quote]

When they refer to us as “The Great Satan” and declare a jihad on us, and fly planes into our buildings - I’m thinking they hate us personally.

But go ahead and try to make this more complex than it really is. I know that’s the only way you can feel like you are contributing to the discussion.

82

[quote]When they refer to us as “The Great Satan” and declare a jihad on us, and fly planes into our buildings - I’m thinking they hate us personally.

But go ahead and try to make this more complex than it really is. I know that’s the only way you can feel like you are contributing to the discussion.[/quote]

Crackerjack,

I didn’t say they don’t hate us.

However, it’s silly to assume they hate us for “no reason” as opposed to the “reason” that we’ve had a large impact on their own culture and region over the decades.

But go ahead and toss some more insults at me. I know that’s the only way you can feel like you are contributing to the discussion.

83

[quote]
When they refer to us as “The Great Satan” and declare a jihad on us, and fly planes into our buildings - I’m thinking they hate us personally.

But go ahead and try to make this more complex than it really is. I know that’s the only way you can feel like you are contributing to the discussion.

Crackerjack,

I didn’t say they don’t hate us.

However, it’s silly to assume they hate us for “no reason” as opposed to the “reason” that we’ve had a large impact on their own culture and region over the decades.

But go ahead and toss some more insults at me. I know that’s the only way you can feel like you are contributing to the discussion.[/quote]

I’ve never been so full of myself as to think that I contribute much to anything. That is you department.

“No reason” isn’t what you said. You said that they didn’t take this personally. Quit changing the fucking argument when you get behind an 8-ball. Typical thinktard bullshit.

84

Crackerjack,

What the hell are you talking about. My post doesn’t mention anything about whether or not they take it personally.

If you didn’t invent some stupid weird-ass interpretation of my comments so that you can cast it in a negative light I wouldn’t have to go and correct your mischaracterization, would I?

85

[quote]vroom wrote:
“No reason” isn’t what you said. You said that they didn’t take this personally. Quit changing the fucking argument when you get behind an 8-ball. Typical thinktard bullshit.

Crackerjack,

What the hell are you talking about. My post doesn’t mention anything about whether or not they take it personally.

If you didn’t invent some stupid weird-ass interpretation of my comments so that you can cast it in a negative light I wouldn’t have to go and correct your mischaracterization, would I?[/quote]

You’re right - I mis-read what you said. You said that you doubted whether they really cared that much. My argument and assessment of your posts still stand.

Are now going to admit to making your shit up as well? Specifically the whole “no reason” bullshit?

86

[quote]vroom wrote:
They want to kill innocent people because they despise and disagree with our culture and belief system in the midguided belief that this will change how we live our lives. We want to stop them BECAUSE they want to kill our citizens. We absolutely have the right to do this.

I question whether they care enough about our culture and belief systems to do anything. However, they do care about what they believe the effects that our culture has on them…[/quote]

That is the same thing. Just taken to its logical conclusion.

87

Crackerjack,

I don’t see what is so difficult.

I’m saying that people don’t really care about another culture just because it exists.

I’m sure there are cultures all over the planet that I’d dislike if I knew more about them.

However, when one culture imposes itself on another (or at least one culture believes another is imposing itself on it), then you have problems.

If you can’t understand that, or choose not to, it isn’t my problem. However, most people reading this will understand what I’m saying, and it isn’t any stupid nonsense that you are making up so you can knock it back down.

I await your next cunning attack.

88

A culture mired in the Middle Ages will view 21st century western civ as a ‘Satan’. A culture that failed at its height and was surpassed by another (courtesy of a bunch of mad Pollocks outside the gates of Vienna :slight_smile: will view us as a ‘Satan’.

Just as native Americans for the most part could not adapt to European culture, the Islamists cannot adapt. They will fight to the death against this. They will die, clinging to the beliefs of their ancestors.

89

[quote]vroom wrote:
Crackerjack,

I don’t see what is so difficult.

I’m saying that people don’t really care about another culture just because it exists.

I’m sure there are cultures all over the planet that I’d dislike if I knew more about them.

However, when one culture imposes itself on another (or at least one culture believes another is imposing itself on it), then you have problems.

If you can’t understand that, or choose not to, it isn’t my problem. However, most people reading this will understand what I’m saying, and it isn’t any stupid nonsense that you are making up so you can knock it back down.

I await your next cunning attack.[/quote]

What is the point? It is a global world. The culture of any country with a fair modicum of power and prominence on the world scene will impact other countries. Seems to me that you are arguing a point that has no relevance in a world of airplanes, the internet, and mass media.

90

attacking iran was always going to happen. why, because of their huge oil supplys. not enough people know about peak oil and the way the shift of power is moving on the planet.

remember when iraq changed over to the euro? 60 million dollars a day traded in american money and now traded in euros? what do you think that did to the american economy. but thats doens’t matter now america has controll of iraq.

so what are iran currently doing, changing to the euro to sell their oil, and whats happening to their country? being invaded by america.

who runs america? is it the owners of major oil companys? what happen when your non renewable commodity runs out, do you give up or do you find other places to get it from?

it annoys me how americans bang on about 9/11 like that ‘girl that got away’. you know we got bombed here in the uk, not as bad mind you, but we get on with your lives. i don’t remember america doing much when the IRA attacked england and bombed the british government when they were staying in a hotel. oh actually american company?s funded the IRA.

the media system over there is terrible, i know this because i know a lot of people in america. luckily their clued up enough not to be scare mongered by ‘terrorist alert lights’ and the spiel that gets fed to most of the country.

saying that the labour party aren’t much better, they lied about weapons of mass destruction, but thats ok ‘sadam was a bad man’ so that makes it ok. he gassed the kurds! why? because bush snr help cause an uprising with the kurds against sadam and then left them to be slaughtered.

so going back to iran, they supply china, russia and japan with a lot of energy. russia and china are the new super powers on the planet, sorry the american empire was a nice idea but its not going to happen. china will not be happy when USA starts to try and tap iran oil. the chinese are clever though, they have a long term strategy. they have appalling environmental problems though. so lets look at the stats for china for 2004.
bought half the worlds cement.
bought twice as much copper as the world combined
bought 1/3 worlds coal
bought 90% of the worlds steel output

stock pilling while its cheap to ship it in eh?

america needs to get the fuck out of the middle east and stop putting in lap dogs as leaders over newly ‘liberated’ countries.

91

[quote]dead lead wrote:
russia and china are the new super powers on the planet,
[/quote]

China is an emerging power for sure, but I have never heard anyone make that case about Russia. From what I have read they are trending in the opposite direction. Are there any specific reasons why you think Russia is going to re-emerge? Maybe you meant India?

92

Oh bullshit.

If the US and USSR hadn’t used the Middle East as pawns during the cold war… or if they didn’t have tons of oil, nobody would give a rats ass about the Middle East and they wouldn’t give a rats ass about us.

It takes more than simple existence to develop the type of hatred in place right now.

There are cultures on the planet that have been greatly “surpassed” by others, which aren’t in conflict with those others. Such animosity does not generally form out of a vacuum.

93

Heh, I don’t think China is “stockpiling”, they are building and growing at a great pace as they modernize…

94

[quote]brushga wrote:
China is an emerging power for sure, but I have never heard anyone make that case about Russia. From what I have read they are trending in the opposite direction. Are there any specific reasons why you think Russia is going to re-emerge? Maybe you meant India?

[/quote]

i do agree with you on india, russia maybe more an energy super power than a military super power. they supply alot of european and international countrys with oil and gas. the uk by 2020 will need to get 80% of its gas from europe if the nuclear power plants don’t get approval (which i hope they don’t).

95

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
What is the point? It is a global world. The culture of any country with a fair modicum of power and prominence on the world scene will impact other countries. Seems to me that you are arguing a point that has no relevance in a world of airplanes, the internet, and mass media.[/quote]

welcome to the world of relativity, and the Thinking Tree. Maybe he will listen to you. But somehow I seriously doubt it.

96

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Just as native Americans for the most part could not adapt to European culture, the Islamists cannot adapt. They will fight to the death against this. They will die, clinging to the beliefs of their ancestors. [/quote]

Native Americans couldn’t adapt? We fucking killed them all because they wanted to keep their ancestral lands (the ones that we stole). They had no reason to “adapt”, and you or I would have done the same thing that they did. You are making a ridiculous comparison here- Islam is far, far different.

97

[quote]dead lead wrote:
attacking iran was always going to happen. why, because of their huge oil supplys. not enough people know about peak oil and the way the shift of power is moving on the planet.

remember when iraq changed over to the euro? 60 million dollars a day traded in american money and now traded in euros? what do you think that did to the american economy. but thats doens’t matter now america has controll of iraq.

so what are iran currently doing, changing to the euro to sell their oil, and whats happening to their country? being invaded by america.

who runs america? is it the owners of major oil companys? what happen when your non renewable commodity runs out, do you give up or do you find other places to get it from?

it annoys me how americans bang on about 9/11 like that ‘girl that got away’. you know we got bombed here in the uk, not as bad mind you, but we get on with your lives. i don’t remember america doing much when the IRA attacked england and bombed the british government when they were staying in a hotel. oh actually american company?s funded the IRA.

the media system over there is terrible, i know this because i know a lot of people in america. luckily their clued up enough not to be scare mongered by ‘terrorist alert lights’ and the spiel that gets fed to most of the country.

saying that the labour party aren’t much better, they lied about weapons of mass destruction, but thats ok ‘sadam was a bad man’ so that makes it ok. he gassed the kurds! why? because bush snr help cause an uprising with the kurds against sadam and then left them to be slaughtered.

so going back to iran, they supply china, russia and japan with a lot of energy. russia and china are the new super powers on the planet, sorry the american empire was a nice idea but its not going to happen. china will not be happy when USA starts to try and tap iran oil. the chinese are clever though, they have a long term strategy. they have appalling environmental problems though. so lets look at the stats for china for 2004.
bought half the worlds cement.
bought twice as much copper as the world combined
bought 1/3 worlds coal
bought 90% of the worlds steel output

stock pilling while its cheap to ship it in eh?

america needs to get the fuck out of the middle east and stop putting in lap dogs as leaders over newly ‘liberated’ countries.
[/quote]

China and Russia are far from superpowers either economic or military.

The Chinese economy is dependent upon foriegn capital and markets as well as technology. Exports could be completely shut down by the US Navy in wartime. Same for imports of energy. No exports, no factory jobs, big problems for China.
Economically they are ahead in growth but the US economy is growing also and will most likely develop new technologies and industries. Russia is in even worse shape in terms of the economy and conventional military forces. The nukes give them partial parity.

That’s the strategic view, not a political one.

98

[quote]vroom wrote:
It is a global world. The culture of any country with a fair modicum of power and prominence on the world scene will impact other countries. Seems to me that you are arguing a point that has no relevance in a world of airplanes, the internet, and mass media.

Oh bullshit.

If the US and USSR hadn’t used the Middle East as pawns during the cold war… or if they didn’t have tons of oil, nobody would give a rats ass about the Middle East and they wouldn’t give a rats ass about us.

It takes more than simple existence to develop the type of hatred in place right now.

There are cultures on the planet that have been greatly “surpassed” by others, which aren’t in conflict with those others. Such animosity does not generally form out of a vacuum.[/quote]

I have no idea what you’re babbling about. Who said anything about a vacuum? The Middle East is not wrong in feeling that U.S. culture has a great impact on them and the rest of the world. It happens to be one that they don’t like. Not being in conflict has nothing to do with whether or not a country that is powerful and prominent on the world scene influences other countries. It does. Anybody who has done any traveling realizes this. Of couse, whether or not that influence is welcomed, largely ignored, or villified is more complicated and depends on other issues.

99

have any of you heard of the basiji in Iran? being an American born Iranian citizen maybe i can shed some light on the culture that some of us might think we can simply march across with the same across with the same results as Iraq,(although it is a pathetic display of our military intellect). teh basiji are a force of religious devotees who turned the table in the Iran Iraq war.

the Basiji are an unarmed force of martyr’s of ALL age’s who’s sole strategy is to overwhelm opposition with sheer numbers. they aquire their weapons from fallen soldiers on the battlefield. today the number of Basiji exceeds seven million, on top of the 800,000 military personnel. Are we as a military prepared to slaughter 8 million people? that is what it will take.

Thousands of years of brutal military history will not be toppled so easily. Don’t mistake for a second my love for my country, I AM AN AMERICAN,i will die an american, if i should be called upon to fight the ancestors of my ancestors then so be it. all i can do is hope that our foolish president will stop over extending our resources, that is why rome, greece, persia and all other ancient great civilizations have been reduced to shadows of what they once were.

wow, i am bouncing all over the place here. i’m just gonna stop.(don’t say anything about my grammatical mistakes, this is not english class.geez)

100

[quote]mazilla wrote:
have any of you heard of the basiji in Iran? being an American born Iranian citizen maybe i can shed some light on the culture that some of us might think we can simply march across with the same across with the same results as Iraq,(although it is a pathetic display of our military intellect). teh basiji are a force of religious devotees who turned the table in the Iran Iraq war.

the Basiji are an unarmed force of martyr’s of ALL age’s who’s sole strategy is to overwhelm opposition with sheer numbers. they aquire their weapons from fallen soldiers on the battlefield. today the number of Basiji exceeds seven million, on top of the 800,000 military personnel. Are we as a military prepared to slaughter 8 million people? that is what it will take.

Thousands of years of brutal military history will not be toppled so easily. Don’t mistake for a second my love for my country, I AM AN AMERICAN,i will die an american, if i should be called upon to fight the ancestors of my ancestors then so be it. all i can do is hope that our foolish president will stop over extending our resources, that is why rome, greece, persia and all other ancient great civilizations have been reduced to shadows of what they once were.

wow, i am bouncing all over the place here. i’m just gonna stop.(don’t say anything about my grammatical mistakes, this is not english class.geez)[/quote]

Massed infantry assaults by unarmed or semi-armed troops against Armored mechanized forces are the definition of stupidity. They will unfortunately perish in large numbers. The US forces they will face are not the Iraqi’s. They will not run out of supplies, run away or be defeated.

Human wave attacks against US forces have a history of one sided defeats. I wouldn’t bet the Iranian forces would fare any better.

I’ve said before the Iranians will either wind up with a bomb or a war when this is all over. Unfortunately they seem to have made the decision already.