The War on Drugs

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1402

They’re easier to abuse than one might think. Cold water extraction can remove acetaminophen/ibuprofen from OTC codiene meds. To clarify I’ve never done this

There was one European country that allowed hard drugs like H To be sold openly for a while (within a designated area). It wasn’t the drug itself that was the problem, but rather consequences that arose from people trying to procure it that became problematic. Christiana Freetown (anarchist commune) also initially allowed H to be sold openly, but it caused problems so they redacted said system, leaving softer substances like cannabis/mushrooms to be sold openly, this worked just fine.

That being said, interestingly enough there are a few countries that have effectively legalised/removed criminal penalties for small scale cocaine possession. The sky didn’t fall

Whilst common sense ought to be applied, I don’t think the vast majority would try crack, heroin, meth etc just because it’s legal. I’d like to think most have more common sense. I’m not for heroin legalisation, decriminalisation/referral to treatment however I’d advocate for.

It should be noted cannabis is addictive. Not as addictive compared to alcohol, cocaine, nicotine and other “harder” substances, but a portion of uses will develop a disordered pattern of use. I’ve seen it, guys/gals who smoke all day, every day. Only a small portion of those who use are prone to this type of behaviour, the same can be said about the majority of substances/behaviour. There’s def a penchant some have for addictive behaviour, environmental variables also heavily factor in. Should note dependence is a different entity to addiction, although elements from both overlap

Anyone can become dependent on a drugs like heroin/opiates, benzodiazepines, alcohol etc provided they dose frequently enough. I took opiates round the clock on prescription for months and quit cold turkey. This isn’t to say I’m immune to dependence, but for some without a penchant towards addiction its more difficult to become dependent/addicted to various substances/behaviours

Interesting as I have/had many environmental variables lined up perfectly, perhaps I lucked out genetically?

When looking at a recreational intoxicants/behaviour one needs to look at a few factors

  • penchant for inducing dependence
  • severity of withdrawal symptoms
  • societal harm incurred by use
  • harm to the user incurred by use
  • level of intoxication incurred by use
  • burden to healthcare systems

Heroin ranks highly regarding all the above. Something like LSD might seriously take you for a ride (ranking highly on the second last category)… but generally speaking it’s non addictive, societal/user related harm is extremely minimal 99.9% of the time

Tobacco cigarettes have a high penchant for inducing dependence and has moderately severe withdrawal/cravings associated with ceasing use. Harm incurred towards the user with chronic intake is substantial, as is healthcare burden. At the same time the level of perceived impairment from use is nil to none, societal harm (violence etc) is minimal

With alcohol… once again, ranks fairly high for all of the above. But not as severe as heroin

You can apply this to gambling, sexual activity, eating badly etc. in the end it becomes fairly clear as to which substances are clearly unsuitable for fitting under a legalised framework.

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1403

See, the thing is these were experiments that only took place for a short time and while the former faced normal teething problems, the latter implies a sign of things to come. In the mid to long term, I have no doubt you will see heroin use sky rocket if people start trying it and have free access to it.

It doesn’t take a vast majority, nor even a vast minority in a country of 300 million for this to become a problem of epic proportions.

Agreed.

It depends on the opiate. I’ve never met anyone who tried heroin in any form, even “chasing the dragon”, and didn’t eventually get addicted.

Maybe. I said before I get nothing out of alcohol for some reason so there’s no way I can get addicted to it so I get what you’re saying. It doesn’t mean I don’t think others can.

I’m cool with lsd. One bad trip and one may not even want to ever touch it again lol.

EDIT:

Read the alcohol part wrong. Sry lol/

1404

We’ve already seen this in America with prescription opiates. When I was a kid growing up in America it wasn’t all that unusual for a kid to steal some oxy to use “for fun”… how fucked is that? Oxycodone is no less addictive than heroin, many prior addicts will even claim oxycodone feels better than diacetylmorphine (heroin).

We have a big problem with methamphetamine in Australia, of which our current approach (harsh policing/penalties) isn’t helping. Statistics indicate around 6% of aussies have tried crystal meth, the figure is considerably higher for rural Aus.

The roadside drug tests that I bitch about that look for traces of narcotics as opposed to impairment back this. In rural areas like Shepparton Victoria roughly 1 in 10 RDT’s come back positive for traces of methamphetamine.

I’ve personally heard of kids as young as fourteen using this shit.

For pain I’ve taken oxycodone, codiene, tramadol, dextropropoxyphene and tapentadol. Never heroin as it’s not a prescription medication in Australia, though I’ve had fairly high dose intravenous morphine administered to me in hospital, I’ve also been given fentanyl in hospital (fairly common during surgery).

It’s probably my favourite. It’s the only thing that makes everything go away when I’m down/everything’s gone wrong. For this reason it’s also the one that I use with the least frequency, I know a slippery slope when I see it.

Although relatively safe (i.e tolerance forms instantly, you need exponentially escalating dosages to “trip” if using back to back… otherwise it takes a few weeks to use again), LSD can cause psychotic episodes in a small minority of those who are predisposed (more than the acute psychosis observed during a bad trip). I know someone who took something stupid like LSD, MDMA, ketamine and a lot of cannabis on the same night and had a psychotic episode that affected said person quite badly for quite some time. I know others who have ended up acutely hospitalised from similar combinations.

Also the concern of 5ht2b mediated cardiotoxicity (valvular fibrosis), as has been observed in frequent users of MDMA. But given the acute nature of LSD I’d highly doubt this is of significance… though those who are into the “microdosing” shit need to be aware of this potential risk.

HPPD is also a concern, though exceptionally rare.

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1405

Yeah, I used this as an example as part of my “common sense” comment.

Shit, I had a friend who went there to study and spent all his school fees on meth lol. Not kidding. He was already experimenting with K here.

Lucky bastard lol.

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1406

Ketamine? As of recent this is a fairly common one with (typically more wealthy) kids here.

In terms of recreational use, it’s quite toxic. The bladder/renal pathology observed within long term and occasionally intermittent users is concerning. Many are suprised when I bring up ketamine associated nephrotoxicity/bladder cystitis, it’s thought of as “relatively safe” in comparison to other hard substances… it’s not. It’s probably on par with alcohol, if not worse.

I’d think it’s probably also corrosive to nasal cartilage given taking it feels like insufflating glass… or so I’ve heard.

Disagree, given how accepted alcohol is at social gatherings it’s exceptionally easy for me to abuse, but I don’t… Especially if I’m feeling excluded or sad. No one questions sinking a few beers on a Saturday night, even if it isn’t entirely appropriate for the situation at hand. If someone is drunk/blackout it’s thought of as funny and harmless by adults as our binge drinking culture is fucking toxic. Imagine if you came home at age 17 covered in vomit, voice slurring, stumbling around whilst unable to coherently articulate yourself (not me, giving an example that I’ve seen all too often)

If it’s alcohol apparently that’s harmless fun… imagine boomers saying the same about virtually anything else in a similar context.

America from what I saw didn’t harbour this attitude, the time for drinking was called “college”.

I’ve noticed quite a few adults have what I’d call an ‘alcohol use disorder’, yet are either in denial about it or legitimately believe such patterns of use are healthy. An example would be someone I know who has a couple/few drinks almost every day to wind down after work and/or de-stress. At functions/gatherings this adult frequently drinks a little bit too much and makes just a little bit of an ass out of him/herself. This person views this as casual drinking… it isn’t.

New meta analysis released (yes, I know meta analysis don’t always account for environmental variables/mixing multifactoral over unifactoral effects etc) indicates there is NO level of safe drinking. The antioxidant capacity of wine increasing lifespan/reducing CVD risk has by and large been debunked

Similar to tobacco, any exposure to ethanol appears to increase all cause mortality rates, most notably cardiovascular disease if I recall correctly.

There was a distinct, fairly strong linear correlation between each standard drink consumed per week and increased all cause mortality rates. Alcohol stats aren’t quite as jarring as those seen with tobacco, they’re a fairly close contender though.

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1407

Yep. He was chasing the dragon for some time but his supply got cut off. Then he switched to K and the occasional mdma and went on frequent benders in Indonesia. Fucker then insisted some Indonesian chick put a gong tau(curse/hex) on him and he was seeing things coming out from walls and shit.

Then he finally found meth in Australia. Lived with some chick and paid for both their habits with the money his mother was sending him for his school fees. Then he broke up and tried to commit seppuku but only managed to stab himself before realizing it’d be really painful so he called for an ambulance. Prior to this he was planning to set himself on fire in his car.

Came back sober. Then went back on meth a few months later and I finally cut contact with him.

I know this sounds crazy but I swear I’m not making any of this shit up. I’m actually omitting a lot of crazy shit he did that’s too complicated and weird to go into.

For example, a gong tau is a S.E Asian curse one can cast on the victim by getting hold of some of his/her hair and finger nails and involves being attacked by a flying head with it’s entrails hanging from it in it’s final stage lol.

Followed the fucker to 3 mediums to “nullify the curse”.

Religion Catch All
1408

The dude was a somewhat functional K user before he discovered meth which is why he could still get grades good enough to at least qualify for a lower rated University in Australia. And already so much shit happened. I can’t imagine him injecting heroin.

1409

Man I’m really sorry to hear this. If it’s any consolidation I’ve recently lost contact with someone who I was one inseparably close with primarily in relation to this individuals now very heavy drug/alcohol habit. This person is a shell of the individual they once were

It should be noted neuropsychiatric aberrations can be mediated from drugs like MDMA/ketamine. The pharmacokinetics pertaining to MDMA are somewhat complex as the drug hits on quite a few different pathways/receptors. Frequent would appear to induce serotonergic neurotoxicity, the “comedown” one feels post use is more or less due depletion of serotonin. Ketamine is an analogue of Phencyclidine and similarly to PCP can induce psychosis, although it has less of a penchant for doing so. MDMA is a considerably “softer” substance in comparison to ketamine if used sparingly, but like all substances use is associated with undeniable risk.

I believe you. Substance addiction isn’t something to take lightly, this shit can fuck people sideways.

1410

Don’t be. He was some kind of dead weight I had to carry only because he was a former classmate I hung out with. This also happened around 15 years ago so it’s not a recent thing. I’ve tried K and I believe it’s nothing like heroin when it comes to addictive potential so I believe he fucked his life up himself due to bad decisions despite abusing K. In fact, I hated K. It was like a separation of mind and body without any form of the euphoria for me that people were claiming to have experienced.

It’s actually quite funny when I think about all the crazy shit and I’ve got good stories to tell at parties as long as I have mutual friends who knew him to corroborate them since they’re so fucking crazy people would have called me a liar without someone there to back me up.

The dude even thought a spirit followed him home after walking past a funeral and saw the dead dude standing right next to his picture. Then he saw a discarded doll in the elevator right after that which somehow confirmed it and his fucking MOTHER called me up at 12am asking me why her son was burning offerings for the dead right outside their house at midnight lol.

This was while he was chasing the dragon but of course I didn’t tell his mother that.

Religion Catch All
1411

It all stems from bad decisions. Aside from being held at gunpoint, forced and/or misled people do CHOOSE to take drugs. It’s understandable as to why some turn to drugs to shut out traumas and/or to “soften” the tougher constraints of reality. But in the end it is a CHOICE.

I don’t blame those who end up hooked or believe in the “weak minded” bullshit. I believe people who think this way tend to lack exposure outside the constructs of their tightly knit lives/communities. People who simply call addicts weak minded are imo narrow minded/intolerant individuals who lack the ability to comprehend the neurological grasp vices can have.

I feel empathetic towards those who are slaves to their vices. I do feel as if someone should be held responsible for crime associated with drug use. But at the same time there is a valid argument to state “he/she isn’t in control of his/her actions”. It’s a travesty… it really must be horrible to be broken like that.

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1412

I think it depends on the drug. I’d call someone addicted to K or less potent opiates “weak minded”. But I’ve seen some of the toughest motherfuckers I’d ever met fall victim to heroin addiction.

For stuff like coke and meth, I don’t know since I don’t know many users. I tried yaba once(it’s actually coke mixed with caffeine, not meth) and while it’s some good shit, I’m not sure how one can get addicted unless one is using it as an escape from a really shitty life. I think it’s why crack is known as a poor person’s drug.

For heroin, it’s the opposite. People turn their lives to shit instead. And my meth using friend was a relatively rich kid who turned his life to shit using meth but that’s all I have to go with. Usually only the gay community here uses meth, I don’t know may of them well other than my graphic designer but he’s not into drugs other than the occasional mdma while clubbing, But I do know they face a lot if shit in society since it’s still taboo here.

I don’t know about alcohol, but I have a cigarette addiction that I keep putting off quitting. Being honest with myself, I’m just being weak. I can go without smoking for 3 days and not get any withdrawals but I just don’t want to quit. It’s probably more of a habit than an addiction, actually.

1413

Difficult to quantify, some are merely far more predisposed towards addictive behaviour, there is by and large a genetic component. As to opiates, even the “weaker opiates” can elicit a substantial euphoria when dosed high enough. All opiates are highly, highly addictive when abused. There’s a difference between taking 20-30mg codiene for pain and 250mg codiene to get high.

How long did it last? Cocaine lasts 30-60 minutes. Should be noted I’ve never used cocaine. I think it’s a terrifying substance.

I’m not from an area where yaba is produced, but the Internet states it’s methamphetamine. Should be noted oral methamphetamine is considerably less addictive in comparison to smoking/injecting methamphetamine. Route of delivery/the prospect of instantaneous reward factors in, as does purported max concentrations, time to peak etc.

Description

“Ya ba, formerly known as yama, are tablets containing a mixture of methamphetamine and caffeine.”

There’s both a psychological and a physical component to smoking. You don’t have to be physically dependent on nicotine to get cravings. The physical act of smoking itself is relaxing/pleasurable for those used to smoking tobacco.

Tobacco is quite toxic, the statistics regarding cardiovascular disease rates in particular and the mechanisms by which this occurs are quite jarring. I’m not going to go into the “thousands of chemicals, dozens of carcinogens per cigarette” rhetoric as while true, they’re for the most part only present in trace amounts. It isn’t one cigarette that kills you as many would have you believe, it’s cumulative dosing which becomes apparent following chronic use as nicotine is addictive.

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1414

I can’t remember. Probably around 30 mins. The was like 25 years ago and I don’t think meth even available at that time. Even it were it would have been too expensive to people where I lived to afford. People normally fucked with up upjohns(have no idea what it is), mdma and yaba.

Mdma was pretty expensive so you’d have clubs where there were jugs at most tables filled with water and no alcohol on the weekends cos people couldn’t afford both lol and the club owners realized they could make more money selling mdma.

Hardcore addicts would be heroin users.

1415

Agreed. I’m just weak and being reckless, the latter being a large part of my character lol. Will probably quit soon anyway. Working from home makes me smoke a lot less.

1416

How old were you when you started smoking? Initiating use during teenage years solidifies nicotine mediate neurological alteration, making it harder to quit later on.

Come live in Aus, tobacco is more expensive by weight than silver. People still smoke, goes to show the hold it can have over people. What’s even more pathetic is the price of nicotine replacement options, at times they’re just as, if not more expensive than actual tobacco cigarettes

1417

I believe I was around 13. It was a shithole and store owners would just sell it to you regardless of age. They were very cheap where I lived.

1418

It’s still cheap over there. Price hikes are efffective up until a point. Literature shows mixed results with plain packaging. Initially rates drop prior to smokers becoming desensitised/unphased by the graphic images.

In Australia plain packaging was actually a failure, failing to put a dent in smoking rates. It was only when tobacco excise became absolutely insane that rates dropped more than advertising campaigns had already dropped them. I don’t like the way our insane prices have marginalised low income communities (who tend to bear the brunt of smoking to begin with), nor do I like how a large black market has surfaced in response to our stringent tobacco regulations. At the same time, our high prices have reduced the chances of teenagers regularly taking up the habit, rather smoking now tends to be the odd social cigarette at a gathering. No amount of tobacco is “safe”, but the long term signfiicance of the odd social cigarette (less than 1/wk) is IMO probably very minimal

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1419

Not where I live now(you are smart enough to guess where but just please never put it in writing cos I take my privacy very seriously). I can get a pack of marlboros in some other places in the region for 3 bucks lol.

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1420

I can understand why people keep trying to smuggle it in to Aus for resale…

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1421

Yeah, it’s also the custom duties that make them expensive. I get them at half price at the duty free shops here at the airport. Each pack is like 12 AUD sold normally.

P.S 3 bucks is in AUD, not USD lol. It’s easier for me to calculate prices in AUD than USD so assume any figure I give from now is in AUD unless specified.