The Real Iraq

[quote]Mark Mabry wrote:
But Gkhan I want to ask you this. If we did go into Iraq just to free the people then why did we choose Iraq. I’m mean with these African nations clearing in a much worse state than Iraq. WHY IRAQ?
& as for me saying -What if we move into Sudan to stop the genocide and are stuck fighting muslim terrorists for the next 5 years, 10 years? You’ll be saying “Why the hell did we get involved in this war? It wasn’t our fight. And it costs so much!”- Stoping the genocide in these countries wouldn’t take even 5 years. In these countries the majority of the people actually want our help. & they would show it by blowing our troops up with road side bombs.
[/quote]

I get your point. But what about Somalia? We went in there to feed the people and they ended up shooting at us because a nut warlord wanted to pick a fight.

I never thought invading Iraq was a good idea from the start since the people who attacked us were based out of Afghanistan. I wish I could turn back time and stop the whole thing, but my take is this: we are in there, unfortunately, and I support our country’s efforts to stop the terrorists from killing people. If we leave now, a bigger bloodbath will errupt and we can not let that happen.

Yes I can see what you mean that we don’t seem to get much appreciation for our efforts but if we would have spent even a tenth of the money we are spending in Iraq in Somalia then we would have wiped out the Somalia warlords.
& as for Somalia the US only intervined after the drought that had taken tens of thousands of lives was actually abating.

Gkhan I understand why you don’t think we should pull out of Iraq & I can somewhat agree with you. I simply disagree with the starting of this war(as I see you do as well) and the entire Bush administration. I can also agree with you that it should not be the US’s job to single handedly stop genocide. It would be nice to recieve some support.

Oh and I almost forgot to ask but where did you see that the Chinesse supplied the guns to genocidal warlords/ect?

http://www.sudanreeves.org/Article115.html

Google china sudan genocide. A lot of articles will come up.

More on “the real” implications the war on Iraq had in the USA…

US military recruits more ex-cons

[i]The US Army and Marine Corps recruited significantly more people with criminal records last year than in 2006, amid pressure to meet combat needs.

Statistics released by a congressional committee show 861 people were granted waivers to enlist, up from 457 in 2007.

The crimes included assault, sex crimes, manslaughter and burglary. [/i]

US soldier refuses to serve in ‘illegal Iraq war’

Matthis Chiroux is the kind of young American US military recruiters love.

“I was from a poor, white family from the south, and I did badly in school,” the now 24-year-old told AFP.

“I was ‘filet mignon’ for recruiters. They started phoning me when I was in 10th grade,” or around 16 years old, he added.

Chiroux joined the US army straight out of high school nearly six years ago, and worked his way up from private to sergeant.

He served in Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, and the Philippines and was due to be deployed next month in Iraq.

On Thursday, he refused to go, saying he considers Iraq an illegal war.

“I stand before you today with the strength and clarity and resolve to declare to the military, my government and the world that this soldier will not be deploying to Iraq,” Chiroux said in the sun-filled rotunda of a congressional building in Washington.

“My decision is based on my desire to no longer continue violating my core values to support an illegal and unconstitutional occupation… I refuse to participate in the Iraq occupation,” he said, as a dozen veterans of the five-year-old Iraq war looked on.

Minutes earlier, Chiroux had cried openly as he listened to former comrades-in-arms testify before members of Congress about the failings of the Iraq war.

The testimonies were the first before Congress by Iraq veterans who have turned against the five-year-old war.

Former army sergeant Kristofer Goldsmith told a half-dozen US lawmakers and scores of people who packed into a small hearing room of “lawless murders, looting and the abuse of countless Iraqis.”

He spoke of the psychologically fragile men and women who return from Iraq, to find little help or treatment offered from official circles.

Goldsmith said he had “self-medicated” for several months to treat the wounds of the war.

Another soldier told AFP he had to boost his dosage of medication to treat anxiety and social agoraphobia – two of many lingering mental wounds he carries since his deployments in Iraq – before testifying.

Some 300,000 of the 1.6 million US soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan suffer from the psychological traumas of post-traumatic stress disorder, depression or both, an independent study showed last month.

A group of veterans sitting in the hearing room gazed blankly as their comrades’ testimonies shattered the official version that the US effort in Iraq is succeeding.

Almost to a man, the soldiers who testified denounced serious flaws in the chain of command in Iraq.

Luis Montalvan, a former army captain, accused high-ranking US officers of numerous failures in Iraq, including turning a blind eye to massive fraud on the part of US contractors.

Ex-Marine Jason Lemieux told how a senior officer had altered a report he had written because it slammed US troops of using excessive force, firing off thousands of rounds of machine gun fire and hundreds of grenades in the face of a feeble four rounds of enemy fire.

Goldsmith accused US officials of censorship.

“Everyone who manages a blog, Facebook or Myspace out of Iraq has to register every video, picture, document of any event they do on mission,” Goldsmith told AFP after the hearing.

“You’re almost always denied before you are allowed to send them home.”

Officials take “hard facts and slice them into small pieces to make them presentable to the secretary of state or the president – and all with the intent of furthering the occupation of Iraq,” Goldsmith added.

Chiroux is one of thousands of US soldiers who have deserted since the Iraq war began in 2003, according to figures issued last year by the US army.

But while many seek refuge in Canada, the young soldier vowed to stay in the United States to fight “whatever charges the army levels at me.”

The US army defines a deserter as someone who has been absent without leave for 30 days.

Chiroux stood fast in his resolve to not report for duty on June 15.

“I cannot deploy to Iraq, carry a weapon and not be part of the problem,” he told AFP.

EDIT: Missing link

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5inlEUuu-qX05oAPENqq3Yi51FvZg

Is there a link to the article above?

I just wondered if it came from some pinko rag.

That’s all.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
More importantly, does he honestly think it’s somehow of value to incessantly, and without exception, post only one side of an issue? [/quote]

Take it up with AFP.

Or more exactly, counter-propaganda.

Need I remind you of the OP’s premise?

This goes beyond soldiers not wanting to fight. This is about organized blatant acts of aggression that started with deceit and lies.

It’s the nature of the “war” that’s being questioned.

[quote]lixy wrote:
TeufelHundren wrote:
Mark Mabry wrote:
Hey Lixy,

Just to let you know your not alone on this site full of right wing nut-jobs.=)

To the rest of you,

how can you think what we are doing in Iraq is right? just look at history. Korea. even though we “won that war” we still have troops over there. we will never leave iraq.

BUSH FUCKED US OVER!!!

again, what do you know about the war. PLEASE, people don’t talk about what we are doing there as being right or wrong. Myself, and my battle’s are over there maintaining this country, feeding the kids, building schools, power plants, TV stations, whatever. I don’t care if you talk about the decision to go, that decision was made here.

but don’t talk about right and wrong over there, you get your information from talking heads on the TV, and they don’t even know.

We get it, Teuf. You don’t like talking about the decision to bomb and invade Iraq. You don’t like the idea that the institution you belong to has turned Iraq into a hellhole and a terrorist breeding ground. You probably like to think of your fallen fellow soldiers as heroes. You don’t particularly care about the cost to the Iraqi people. The billions of dollars the American people have been (and are still) paying because you have a belligerent nutjob in the White House matters not to you.

The concept of right and wrong is very blurry for soldiers. As a general rule, in this sort of situation, the victor is always right. And no matter what you say, the crushing majority of people considers you part of a horrible and criminal endeavor. But you don’t care. Well, you shouldn’t if you want to be able to do your job. You’re not paid to think. You’re paid to execute what politicians tell you to do. And it always helps to waive a flag and tell yourself that you’re defending your motherland and spreading freedom. Nothing new really, it’s the way it has always been done.[/quote]

I forgot that you kids these days are much more educated than anyone whos been around longer than a day.

as you said, back to the “real Iraq”

Ill say it once again, you can read all the statistics your little heart desires, but that doesn’t change the fact that you, some reporter or some bleeding heart bean counter who has some fetish with counting dead bodies have no idea who these people are. Now, instead of researching through your OBVIOUSLY biased views of the world, the U.S., and Iraq, please talk to people outside your study group, actually LISTEN to what us stupid Americans have to say. Maybe then you’ll learn some things that may not have been clear to you before.

And everyone, please don’t think that this is the voice of all Muslims, I have a Muslim guy on my squad who is from Pakistan and still feels that what he has done in Iraq was the right thing to do.

And lixy, as for your snide comment about soldiers not knowing right and wrong; I’m not some stupid grunt who pounds rocks together trying to get the water out of them. I have a B.A. in Middle Eastern studies and currently working on my masters. I don’t know how they train them in Sweden, but the smartest weapons in the United States military are not our nukes, or our satellites, they are our uniformed, fighting, men and women.

and with that, Im done arguing because, in the end, what you say will not change a single thing. I will still be deploying in November, I will be building schools (whether you want to believe that or not), patrolling the streets day and night, and HELPING the people of Iraq, much more than you EVER will.

I bid you farewell sir, please have a long and happy life, brought to you by the world purveyors of freedom, the United States of America

[quote]TeufelHundren wrote:
I forgot that you kids these days are much more educated than anyone whos been around longer than a day.[/quote]

Generally, I feel people are getting dumber.

What does it matter if I personally know them or not?

I actually listen to anyone who cares to share his/her views on the matter. You see, I have been listening ever since 2002, and I actively campaigned against aggression. But you have to realize that the people on violence’s side in that case were extremely rare outside of the US and UK. Now, it’s even worse. The rats themselves have abandoned ship (yeah, that was a jab at the two-faced hypocritical behavior of the Democratic Party!).

I have yet to hear a solid case about the US fscking up Iraq. What is clear, is that the US waged a war of aggression. It had no authority to invade a sovereign state. It emboldened Al-Qaeda. It tarnished (that’s a euphemism) the image of the USA. Also, it turned out that everything about those WMDs and 9/11 were blatant lies. Not that many people were surprised outside of the US.

True, that prick Saddam is gone for good. But was his life worth all those deaths? Injured? Displaced? I, among a few billions, think not. Removing Saddam was an Iraqi job, and you had absolutely no authority to do it.

Whatever gets him through the night.

And I don’t think I ever claimed to be the voice of anyone but myself.

Good for you! But my point stands. The individual is eclipsed in a military environment. It becomes about the greater good. And that, is shaped by your superiors (maybe even their mood). There’s no room for critical thinking. If you object to your commander’s orders, you go to jail. Simple.

I abhor patriotism. I think it is one of the most horrendous plagues around. So we probably won’t be able to reach any form of consensus on this matter. I like the idea of militias because you can’t use them to wage wars of aggression. The people would overthrow you in a blink if you tried that. The military, on the other hand, is a invitation to the first tinpot dictator to get people killed.

Yet another insider to speak of deceit and manipulation,

Former White House spokesman Scott McClellan has said US President George W Bush was not “open and forthright” on Iraq and rushed to an unnecessary war.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Good for you! But my point stands. The individual is eclipsed in a military environment. It becomes about the greater good. And that, is shaped by your superiors (maybe even their mood). There’s no room for critical thinking. If you object to your commander’s orders, you go to jail. Simple.
[/quote]

You dont know how the military works, just as you dont know how the country of Iraq works, so, stay within your lane.

There are things called lawful (and unlawful) orders. The U.S Army fights according to the Geneva Convention that was also signed by Sweden, if i recall correctly, and all orders are to be strictly scrutinized against the provisions it contains.

The Nuremberg “but they ordered me to do it” defense went out the window a LONG time ago mate, learn your history. we convict people for that nowadays.

[quote]TeufelHundren wrote:
You dont know how the military works, just as you dont know how the country of Iraq works, so, stay within your lane.

There are things called lawful (and unlawful) orders. The U.S Army fights according to the Geneva Convention that was also signed by Sweden, if i recall correctly, and all orders are to be strictly scrutinized against the provisions it contains.

The Nuremberg “but they ordered me to do it” defense went out the window a LONG time ago mate, learn your history. we convict people for that nowadays. [/quote]

Hah! Last I checked, Bush was free and roaming around. Nobody convicted him for ordering a war of aggression.

I am also not buying the argument that the US gives two shits about international law. Need I remind you of 1986’s “Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America”?

[quote]lixy wrote:
TeufelHundren wrote:
You dont know how the military works, just as you dont know how the country of Iraq works, so, stay within your lane.

There are things called lawful (and unlawful) orders. The U.S Army fights according to the Geneva Convention that was also signed by Sweden, if i recall correctly, and all orders are to be strictly scrutinized against the provisions it contains.

The Nuremberg “but they ordered me to do it” defense went out the window a LONG time ago mate, learn your history. we convict people for that nowadays.

Hah! Last I checked, Bush was free and roaming around. Nobody convicted him for ordering a war of aggression.

I am also not buying the argument that the US gives two shits about international law. Need I remind you of 1986’s “Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America”?[/quote]

ok, well, Im telling you, you can think I am lying if you wish, but i assure you sir, I have no reason to be lying to some guy on an internet forum…

we receive bi-annual Law of War training in every unit in the army. Also, every single soldier is expected to follow this to the letter, or face the consequences. military justice, civil, and if it is bad enough, international courts.

Just as a side note, where are you from?

[quote]TeufelHundren wrote:
ok, well, Im telling you, you can think I am lying if you wish, but i assure you sir, I have no reason to be lying to some guy on an internet forum…

we receive bi-annual Law of War training in every unit in the army. Also, every single soldier is expected to follow this to the letter, or face the consequences. military justice, civil, and if it is bad enough, international courts. [/quote]

I never suggested you were lying. I pointed out that the US military did not view the invasion of Iraq as unlawful because US lawmakers authorized it. If we were to apply the Nuremberg standards to this, Bush should be behind bars.

Not that there aren’t many soldiers who stand up on principles in the face of overwhelming odds, but most just go along with the wave.

And just to clarify my position, I am very happy Saddam is out, but I don’t believe all that mess was necessary. Saddam was getting weaker by the day. He couldn’t travel around the country without risking an assassination. His military power was in shambles after decades of sanctions and devastating wars, one of which claimed over a million lives. The resulting chaos was easily predictable and the war on Iraq was the single best thing that ever happened to the terrorist scum.

Casablanca, Morocco.

Here’s a bit of trivia: the longest unbroken treaty in United States history is with Morocco.

In the Real Iraq…

US army suicides at record level

The US army has said the number of suicides in the military last year was the highest since records began, with 115 recorded.