The Real Cuba

[quote]jcmia wrote:
Out of curiosity, are you black or mulatto Alexsandr? cause my family is Cuban and I have noticed that white, middle class Cubans (especially in Miami) ALL talk about how great Cuba was back in the day, how they all owned a summer home in the country, how there was no racism, etc. Yet black Cubans tend to have a completely different view of what Cuba was like.

by the way, you dont know prejudice towards blacks until you meet some of those same Cubans (unfortunately).

It pains me to say some of these things about my own people, but it is true. [/quote]

Yep, you called it. I am mulatto.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Yup, it’s all YOUR fault Phileaux.[/quote]

I don’t know how but you completely missed my point.

Alexsandr,

I’m going to start responding to every post you make in the Politcs Forum with,“YOU ARE NOT AMERICAN”. That will help us have a better discussion of the issues.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
For example:

Cuba’s infant mortality rate was the LOWEST in Latin America and the thirteenth lowest in the world. It was ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal in that department. Now, (and using Castro’s own inflated figures) it’s TWENTY-FOURTH in the world.

US infant mortality: 6.5 deaths per 1,000 live births

Cuban infant mortality rate: 6.33 deaths per 1,000 live births

Source: CIA world factbook

Why are you complaining about Cuba’s infant mortality rate, when it’s lower than the US rate?
[/quote]

This isn’t a good comparison, as it’s not apples to apples – only the U.S. counts pre-mature babies, who die at a much higher rate, in its infant-mortality number. Cuba and European countries don’t.

http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000022.html

Cuba vs. the United States on Infant Mortality

By Brian Carnell

Thursday, February 21, 2002

Recently released statistics on the infant mortality rate in the Western hemisphere yielded an odd conclusions – Cuba’s infant mortality rate, 16 6.0 per 1,000, is now lower than the U.S. infant mortality rate, at 7.2 per 1,000. Given Cuba’s poverty level, its 6.0 rate is very impressive, but is it accurate to say that Cuba now has an infant mortality rate lower than the United States? No.

The problem is that international statistics on infant mortality are helpful in revealing large differences, but when it comes to small differences such as that between Cuba and the United States, often other factors are really behind the numbers.

The primary reason Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the United States is that the United States is a world leader in an odd category – the percentage of infants who die on their birthday. In any given year in the United States anywhere from 30-40 percent of infants die before they are even a day old.

Why? Because the United States also easily has the most intensive system of emergency intervention to keep low birth weight and premature infants alive in the world. The United States is, for example, one of only a handful countries that keeps detailed statistics on early fetal mortality – the survival rate of infants who are born as early as the 20th week of gestation.

How does this skew the statistics? Because in the United States if an infant is born weighing only 400 grams and not breathing, a doctor will likely spend lot of time and money trying to revive that infant. If the infant does not survive – and the mortality rate for such infants is in excess of 50 percent – that sequence of events will be recorded as a live birth and then a death.

In many countries, however, (including many European countries) such severe medical intervention would not be attempted and, moreover, regardless of whether or not it was, this would be recorded as a fetal death rather than a live birth. That unfortunate infant would never show up in infant mortality statistics.

This is clearly what is happening in Cuba. In the United States about 1.3 percent of all live births are very low birth weight – less than 1,500 grams. In Cuba, on the other hand, only about 0.4 percent of all births are less than 1,500 grams. This is despite the fact that the United States and Cuba have very similar low birth rates (births where the infant weighs less than 2500g). The United States actually has a much better low birth rate than Cuba if you control for multiple births – i.e. the growing number of multiple births in the United States due to technological interventions has resulted in a marked increase in the number of births under 2,500 g.

It is odd if both Cuba and the U.S. have similar birth weight distributions that the U.S. has more than 3 times the number of births under 1,500g, unless there is a marked discrepancy in the way that very low birth weight births are recorded. Cuba probably does much the same thing that many other countries do and does not register births under 1000g. In fact, this is precisely what the World Health Organization itself recommends that for official record keeping purposes, only live births of greater than 1,000g should be included.

The result is that the statistics make it appear as if Cuba’s infant mortality rate is significantly better than the United States’, but in fact what is really being measured in this difference is that the United States takes far more serious (and expensive) interventions among extremely low birth weight and extremely premature infants than Cuba (or much of the rest of the world for that matter) does.

This does not diminish in any way Cuba’s progress on infant mortality, which is one of the few long term improvements that the Cuban state has made, but infant mortality statistics that are that close to one another are often extremely difficult to compare cross-culturally.


Or to quote from a weblog post that explained it pretty well:

"The primary reason Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the United States is that the United States is a world leader in an odd category – the percentage of infants who die on their birthday. In any given year in the United States anywhere from 30-40 percent of infants die before they are even a day old.

Why? Because the United States also easily has the most intensive system of emergency intervention to keep low birth weight and premature infants alive in the world. The United States is, for example, one of only a handful countries that keeps detailed statistics on early fetal mortality – the survival rate of infants who are born as early as the 20th week of gestation.

How does this skew the statistics? Because in the United States if an infant is born weighing only 400 grams and not breathing, a doctor will likely spend lot of time and money trying to revive that infant. If the infant does not survive – and the mortality rate for such infants is in excess of 50 percent – that sequence of events will be recorded as a live birth and then a death.

In many countries, however, (including many European countries) such severe medical intervention would not be attempted and, moreover, regardless of whether or not it was, this would be recorded as a fetal death rather than a live birth. That unfortunate infant would never show up in infant mortality statistics."

I have yet to read any posts that are pro-Castro, yet many of you feel the need to argumentatively remind everyone else how bad he is. To that I can only reply: no shit, now what?

My question is simple, and BB tried to continue a discussion of it, what is to be done (that’s a Commie joke…hahahaha)? Should we attempt another Bay of Pigs fiasco and try to reinstall the Batista/mafia folks or should we try to move forward and beat Castro with what we do well…buying and selling. Call me a crazy libertarian if you want, but I think that free markets (truly free markets, mind you) will take care of themselves. Autocratic states cannot coincide with actual free markets.

What is being accomplished by the sanctions and the travel ban? Poverty, repression, and the continued rule of Castro. As long as he can scapegoat American hostility as the cause of all of Cuba’s problems, he can continue to rally popular support. If sanctions were lifted and people were free to travel back and forth, it would truly open up the country. If we were serious about freedom (and not just restoring the old ruling elite), we could end the “Cuba Problem” in months.

Aleksandr, I won’t spend too much time replying to what you wrote, as I see now I have only been going back and forth with nothing more then another ignorant communist hack.

You say my family is full of traitors??? My father is not the one who folded like a cheap piece of carboard when the REDS came a knockin’. Instead, what did the spineless coward do? He tucked his tail between his legs and began to march to Fidel’s tune, I think it’s called something like “Pobre infelizes.”

You say you are a Cuban and I am not??? My father is not the one who spent 30 years as Castro’s bitch, at the end of his leash doing his bidding. Please man, you tell me not to brag about the CIA and all that? Are you listening to yourself? You are openly stating that your father has his hand in one of the most murderous regimes in our contemporary history. As far as I am concerned your father is as much responsible as those war criminals who pulled the trigger killings thousands of their own people. Tu y tu familia son pura MIERDA! Give me a break…

You say what he did takes balls??? Yeah I guess taking 30 years to MAN-UP and resign his position with the communist party is really standing up for something. And this is after years of having separated from his own family, right! Comemierda! You say it like he up and left when he found out things were bad, in the early 60’s or something. Please,
just the fact that YOU have yourself stated that the United States is “the enemy” (in your earlier post) shows me how pro-Castro you and he really are.

If he’s anti-Castro, I hate to see what the Pro-Castro morons are like!

Your father contributed to the absolute enslavement of his own people (including himself, unless he was hooked up with Castro RED money) for 3 decades, and you want to imply MY family sold Cuba out? I hope he can sleep well at night. You are refering to a man (if we can call him that) that sacrificed HIS and HIS OWN FAMILY’s freedoms to appease the lust for power this one madman has? I say he can’t even call himself a Cuban. Communist, fine, all he wants, but Cuban? I don’t think so.

He and obviously yourself as well have no idea what having a back-bone is like. You are true followers and of the worst kind unfortunately.

Now I know why those in La Brigada 2506 are so proud of having ENDED a few commie bastards in an attempt to liberate their homeland. Those were commie bastards like yourself and your father. As far as I am concerned, the LESS of you the BETTER!

I love how you say: Oh, but at least Cuba has it’s soverignty… Thats a joke, so does North Korea asshole, and every other rogue state on the planet.

You wanna live like a slave, in pure poverty, with no human rights, go for it, you desverve it (lets not even mention what your father deserves). I’m sure you’ll love it, if it’s all those great things you say it is.

In the end, you have NO business even living in this country. You and your father are the types of Hypocrits that will bash the “Imperialist Yankees” all day long, but live here and enjoy all the freedoms that come along with it. Your type make me sick honeslty. Get the fuck out of this country and leave it to those who believe in it, and stand up for it, not you two-faced liars who hide behind doors and shit on it every chance they get.

When you get back down to “Paradise,” let us know how the whole ration card thing is working out for you… I’d love to see some performance pics after 6 months of THAT diet. Hijo de Puta

-Bye Fuhrer-wanna-be

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Yup, it’s all YOUR fault Phileaux.

I don’t know how but you completely missed my point.[/quote]

What was your point, that he should feel guilty about seeing Cuba in its current state?

He did not harm Cuba in any way, he was just thankful he had an opportunity to see it. I don’t see why you would bash him for that.

JPBear What is yoour point? And use small words so that even I can understand.

Thanks Zap

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
What was your point, that he should feel guilty about seeing Cuba in its current state?

He did not harm Cuba in any way, he was just thankful he had an opportunity to see it. I don’t see why you would bash him for that.[/quote]

No, he was not thankful he had an opportunity to see it, he was thankful he had an opportunity to see it before that offensive and brash thing called capitalism had a chance to make everything all ugly and neon. He was failing to see the connection between capitalism and human freedom and dignity. He was failing to see that the absence of capitalism was causing pain and suffering.

I personally don’t think oppressive regimes make charming holiday destinations.

No, I was not blaming him for Cuba’s problems. I just take offence at his suggestion that Cuba is better off without our way of life.

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
What was your point, that he should feel guilty about seeing Cuba in its current state?

He did not harm Cuba in any way, he was just thankful he had an opportunity to see it. I don’t see why you would bash him for that.

No, he was not thankful he had an opportunity to see it, he was thankful he had an opportunity to see it before that offensive and brash thing called capitalism had a chance to make everything all ugly and neon. He was failing to see the connection between capitalism and human freedom and dignity. He was failing to see that the absence of capitalism was causing pain and suffering.

I personally don’t think oppressive regimes make charming holiday destinations.

No, I was not blaming him for Cuba’s problems. I just take offence at his suggestion that Cuba is better off without our way of life.
[/quote]

I don’t think he is glad Cuba is being denied the benefits of a capatalist and free society.

I think he is just thankful for the opportunity to see Cuba as it exists in this moment in history.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

I think he is just thankful for the opportunity to see Cuba as it exists in this moment in history.[/quote]

That?s not what I took from his comments, but even if that is what he meant, it would be kind of like saying “I?m glad I got to see the AIDS epidemic in Africa before they find a cure”. Why would you want to see human misery?

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think he is just thankful for the opportunity to see Cuba as it exists in this moment in history.

That?s not what I took from his comments, but even if that is what he meant, it would be kind of like saying “I?m glad I got to see the AIDS epidemic in Africa before they find a cure”. Why would you want to see human misery? [/quote]

I took it to mean he doen’t like McDonalds and KFC, not that he was enjoying the suffering of Cuba’s downtrodden citizens.

Hell, I don’t like seeing KFC and McDonalds on evert corner around here.

[quote]wetdrmscap wrote:
Aleksandr, I won’t spend too much time replying to what you wrote, as I see now I have only been going back and forth with nothing more then another ignorant communist hack.
[/quote]

Didn’t I tell you not to say “communist” until you figured out what the word means?

My father is communist. He didn’t fold, he tolerated, with the hopes that the Soviet model could be improved.

Who did the tail tucking? My family stayed in the country, and my father, in the PCC, tried to help improve things. Your family ran away, and came back only to kill their compatriots. My family tried to make Cuba better. Your family tried to subvert its sovereignty.

He spent more than 30 years as a pain in the government’s ass. He was a little too well respected to simply get rid of, though. When he got tired of it, he resigned, and nothing happened to him. How many people have you heard of that were aloud to resign from the PCC? Oh… That’s right…

STAR WARS? Are you retarded?

It almost makes me sad. You don’t even realize that if you went to Cuba, right now, you would be one of the most hated families in the country. You aren’t Cuban, you never will be. Get over it. You don’t understand the Cuban people, and you probably never will. The only exposure you’ve had to Cuban culture is from your community, where everyone else comes from families as ridiculous as yours. You are not the majority. I hate to be harsh, but it’s the truth.

You can read all the books you want, and study as much propagande as you want to. It won’t make you Cuban.

Why would I care what you think? No one does.Except maybe the republican party…

Your family ran away. Mine stayed and tried to make a difference. My dad got old, and retired.

Years? It was about 2 years. He couldn’t leave with us, because he had to tie up loose ends.

No idea what you’re talking about. But no, he didn’t run away when things got bad.

You don’t have to be pro-castro to see what the US has done to Cuba over the last 100 years. The US is Cuba’s enemy, and the CIA is its most corrupt agent. Seriously, go to Cuba and tell someone on the street your family sold Cuba out to the CIA. You’ll never be seen again. You might be hot shit in Miami, but you’re lower than dirt in Cuba. Sorry.

They are retarded. Like the pro-america morons. When you have to be pretty stupid not to see how Castro and the US are bad for Cuba.

He sleeps like a baby. He did what he had to, for himself, his family, and his country. Your family ran to the CIA.

YOU are saying my father can’t call himself Cuban? Kid, YOU ARE NOT CUBAN.

Backbone? that’s like, when things don’t fo your way, you take it like a man, and do the best you can, instead of betraying your own people, right?

It’s good that they are happy about it, because no one else in Cuba is. I’m sorry, I know it’s hard to hear it, but the entire country considers those guys traitors. Well, not everyone; some people feel sorry for those guys, thinking they didn’t realize what they were doing. But I think these people are just naive.

I honestly think it’s sad how you assume the Cuban people feel the same way your community does…

Yes, exactly. If a country has internal problems, they need to be resolved internally. If foreigners (like you) don’t like it, no one cares. It’s not your country.

I don’t have to speculate about how I would feel. I, unlike certain people I know, am from Cuba. I have lived in it. Frankly, I’d move back, but I am kind of in the middle of my University degree, and my spanish isn’t good enough to finish there. Not because I think things are great there, but because I’d like to participate in positive change (as in, not betraying the country).

  1. You don’t own the US. If I wanted to live in the US, you don’t get a say in it.

  2. Part of your rights as an american is the freedom to have whatever personal beliefs you want. If I believed the US was evil, I would have that right.

  3. I am not in any way two-faced. I am pretty open about my beliefs, and am not afraid to express them, even if they are unpopular.

  4. No offense to any americans, but I’d rather not live there. I live in Canada.

I know guys that could easily post their pics here, who lived their whole lives in Cuba. You see, your rations aren’t how much you are allowed to eat, it’s more like how much you are guaranteed. I’m not sure, but I suspect there are a lot of people in large urban centers in the US and Canada who wished they were guaranteed their next meal, even if it was meager. In addition, you CAN buy aditional food. I’m even told that it’s much easier now than it was when I left, as the USSR was pulling out.

[quote]
-Bye Fuhrer-wanna-be[/quote]

One more time… STALIN STOPPED THE NAZIS. This makes no sense at all.

JPBear

When I was there it was a business/pleasure trip and believe me capitalism is everywere. As far as the fast food comment I live in New Orleans Louisiana and when traveling I go for the local food not the mass produced comfort food. One thing outsiders may not realize is the lack of food to feed the citizens is also the same for their livestock in other words I had the leanest cane-suger smoked bacon in my life. The people want to do business. I believe it’s in everyone to do better for themselves. While there my taxi driver became my personal driver on the first day because I tipped 100%, it ended up about $100US for a nine hour day. I also did my research before hand and brought soap, shampoo, and Multi-vites and gave them to any person that helped me out. These are the things they could trade with later. Everyone knew I was American so I tried to build bridges. So communism bad, capitalism good.

JPBear btw great back shot

[quote]Phileaux wrote:
JPBear

When I was there it was a business/pleasure trip and believe me capitalism is everywere. As far as the fast food comment I live in New Orleans Louisiana and when traveling I go for the local food not the mass produced comfort food. One thing outsiders may not realize is the lack of food to feed the citizens is also the same for their livestock in other words I had the leanest cane-suger smoked bacon in my life. The people want to do business. I believe it’s in everyone to do better for themselves. While there my taxi driver became my personal driver on the first day because I tipped 100%, it ended up about $100US for a nine hour day. I also did my research before hand and brought soap, shampoo, and Multi-vites and gave them to any person that helped me out. These are the things they could trade with later. Everyone knew I was American so I tried to build bridges. So communism bad, capitalism good. [/quote]

Just a friendly reminder, the government of Cuba owns most businesses, and their goal is to generate wealth for the country (government). To do this, they hire workers and pay them less than the value of their labout, keeping the differential as profit. There is a market economy, but the government completely controls it. This violates almost every major principle of communism, but fits perfectly with the definition of state-capitalism.

modify your conclusion to “some market control = good, total market control = bad” and I’ll agree with you 100%. Cuba’s economic system is retarded.

Alexsandr: I agree.
Business wise Cuba will take off as a Major vacation spot for Americans when the doors open. It will leave Mexico and Jamaica(sic) in the dust.

Sorry about spelling English is my first language.

[quote]Phileaux wrote:
Alexsandr: I agree.
Business wise Cuba will take off as a Major vacation spot for Americans when the doors open. It will leave Mexico and Jamaica(sic) in the dust.

Sorry about spelling English is my first language.[/quote]

You know, I’d really hate to see this happen. At least right away. Cuba is beautiful, and it doesn’t make sense for people not to go there. But I’d much rather Cuba focus on building a real economy first. The Cuban people wre very well educated, and the country is very rich in natural resouces. It really should be able to develop a very strong economy.

But with tourism as strong as it is, and increasing in the future, there will be no need to have a solid economy. The tourism is too much of a crutch, I think. In other words, the economy is not diversified enough, and if something should happen, and tourism failed, the country would be terribly hurt.

But you never know. Maybe the next president will have interests other than retaining power.

True enough. I know what you mean, New Orleans is a big tourist destination a major portion of Louisiana’s economy depends on outside dollars. BUT as people come and see your town some might consider it a good location for industry. Let’s not forget that Cuba already has tobacco,sugar, and rum to instantly compete in the US market which it will take a lions share.

With all the talk about Guantanamo being a so-called “gulag,” why isn’t anyone talking about the real gulag right down the road? In eastern Cuba, a stone’s throw from Guantanamo, is a remnant of Castro’s massive concentration-camp system, Boniato Prison. Boniato even today houses political prisoners in horrendous conditions. In pointing out how ridiculous it is for Amnesty International to label Gitmo a “gulag,” commentators use Stalin by comparison. The more immediate comparison, Castro, is still operating his extensive jail and labor-camp nightmare.

As for the details of Castro’s gulag brutality, the best source is Armando Valladares’ book, Against All Hope: A Memoir of Life In Castro’s Gulag. What was that word, CNN and Harry Reid? Valladares spent 22 years as a poilitical prisoner in Castro’s dungeons and his account should be read by everyone who wants to get a clear view of what a true gulag is all about. And it ain’t about female interrogators standing too close to an interrogatee. Valladares describes the “drawer cells,” for instance: at, of all places, Boniato next door to Gitmo. “Drawer cells” were holes scooped out of a slope that prisoners were sometimes crammed into. Raw dirt. There wasn’t enough room in a drawer cell for the prisoner to stand up. After a few days in a drawer cell, it was not uncommon for a person to emerge stark crazy.

Let’s keep in mind Fidel’s actual gulag next door when gross exaggerations of Guantanamo get the NY Times editorial board into a frenzy.