Getting better at it. Half cleaning 30 more lbs this week which were easier than last weeks. I found that the point at which I should explode up is lower than originally thought.
that’s weird. The point of “explosion” should be as high as possible. Perhaps you are just “overpulling” with the arms.
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
that’s weird. The point of “explosion” should be as high as possible. Perhaps you are just “overpulling” with the arms.[/quote]
See, I thought this was weird as well. I’ll go higher than I was the other week and see how it goes. Maybe I was in a mechanically ‘weak spot’ last week.
What exactly are you referring to by the ‘point of explosion’? In my mind, that’s the point where you’re putting maximum acceleration on the bar, which should be right at knee height. Then you have the hip drive, which seems to be what you’re referring to. I consider that to be the final oomph to the explosion.
Not trying to argue, just trying to get in your head.
That is simply wrong. I hope you miswrote that, otherwise you’ve been misinformed. The point of maximum acceleration is at the very end of the pull, at the exploding/power position/part. You can get to that position by standing up straight, torso tight and upright with hips/back of head in a near vertical line to the floor and knees slightly bent. From that position you simply lock out the knees by “punching” your legs into the floor then rebending them to get under the bar.
To get a feel for it I think I made an earlier post about this with one of coach mccauley’s videos. It feels very similar to punching then retreating your arm back really fast, only with the legs.
From the knee till you reach that point of explosion you should accelerate steadily the bar. The important thing is that you make it faster than the pull to the knee and not extremely fast until you are very proficient(which usually only the very top lifters are) and you can put maximum force at all times to the bar. If, now that you aren’t proficient enough with the technique, you put maximum force to the bar during the pull from the knee till the explosion point its very likely that you will end up doing just a pull/high pull when the weight gets heavy. What happens is that the bar reaches a velocity where your technique isn’t good enough and your body doesn’t have the skill to put even more force to it when its going so fast so at the very end the velocity of the bar is lower than what it could be.
In fewer words, try to make the pull up to the exploding point at a pace that is as fast as possible but feels COMFORTABLE, stable and strong even. If you are feeling like you can’t put force to the bar the way you pull, chances are you accelerated too much at an earlier point in your pull. Then once you reach the exploding point, try to find a cue so that you get that “punch and retreat” of the hips and knees/legs.
Once you learn this relatively well, you will feel way more confident and be a lot more consistent
OK, I see what you’re saying. That’s the way I’ve been doing it up to this point. Slow to the knee, fast to the hip, punch with the heels.
Near your max, though, don’t you need to put max force into it from the knee? The bar will move slower, of course, but it needs to be moving as fast as possible before the jump?
Usually when you reach your max, with lots of practice the speed will remain roughly the same, but you will be putting more force into it since its more weight.
This is also individual of the lifter but some remain about as fast whether its 50kgs or 150kgs, some will go really fast with low weights and slower but still pretty fast with heavy weights(see Zlatan Vanev) and some will go really slow with heavy weights(see Taner Sagir). Usually though the first case is the common one as the 2nd needs you to know how to put maximum force at all times and the 3rd needs you to know how to get under the bar fast and to be VERY fearless. Its almost a deadlift followed by getting under the bar.
Ideally you’d be putting maximum force at all times, its just that it takes a lot of skill and years of training to build up to being able to do that.
However Pendlay advocates that first you need to be able to get to the right positions(floor, knee, exploding point) correctly, then do it with the correct tempo(medium, fast, FASTEST) then speed it up but KEEP the tempo. The reality is that if you are self coached you will need to experiment a bit. Also when it comes to speed, the weight doesn’t lie. If putting more force in YOUR first pull made you lift the weight that you couldn’t before then that is the correct thing to do usually.
If putting less force in the first pull made you lift the weight easier/better then it probably is better. Experiment a bit around. I can’t speak for every lifter but I feel very comfortable and confident with the tempo and speed I got going on right now. I think when you get it right -whatever that may mean for someone- you will feel confident and comfortable with your technique as well. That’s not to say it will feel easy. I find the oly lifts at maximum MUCH harder than a max set of squats.
Definitely the most difficult lift I’ve ever tried to master. Getting better, today I half cleaned 198 for a single and got it up easy.
Lots of good info already posted but let me add my 2 cents here.
Pendlay’s teaching progressions are very good. What you need to keep in mind is that your torso should be vertical at the start of the second pull. I used to not believe that this was true. After all, bending forward at the waist allows better use of the glutes, hamstrings, and lower back right? Well, not really, plus it results in an incorrect bar path. I try not to be a technique nazi but in the end a correct bar path is very important if you want to make progress on this lift.
While it’s possible to “muscle up” a lighter weight, things change when the bar gets heavier. My lifting started to improve once I got into the correct position for the second pull. Another “benefit,” if you want to call it that, is that I now see a relationship between increasing my squat and increasing my Olympic lifts - bigger squat = bigger lifts. Used to be that I would increase my squat but my lifts stayed the same.
Don’t try to bump the bar on your thighs. That’s not what’s going on. What’s really happening is an almost incidental contact caused by keeping the bar close and the knees rebending. Trying to bump the bar is just going to send it on an incorrect path and further away from the body. Another good visualization, also from Pendlay (you can read this on his technique posters), is to think of simply placing the bar on your lap. Sounds silly but it works.
Finally let me touch on the whole triple extension vs. catapult technique that someone mentioned. I don’t know that these techniques are all that different, and in terms of the second pull, I don’t think they are different. The difference is in the timing of getting under the bar. The catapult method has you going under the bar a fraction of a second sooner (but that fraction is important for elite lifters).
I think the triple extension still has value as a teaching method because it teaches you to finish the pull. It also tends to pull the bar higher, which is kind of what you’re after in a power clean. But eventually what will happen is that once you reach the correct position for the second pull you should just think “explode!”
Good info from mike. However the difference between “triple explosion” and “catapult” is really just in terms. The catapult was first called so by coach mccauley simply cause that’s what it reminded him of, no other reason.
The problem is what lifters THINK of as triple extension, in particular the ankle joint. The heel WILL raise off the floor but its not due to a flexing of the calf muscle, instead its that your keep the calves relatively loose and the heel is raised simply from the momentum.
However you think about it doesn’t matter, what matters is only that you do NOT use your calf muscles/your feet to raise the bar.
Some lifters do it, but do it properly and that is REALLY hard. Naim used to do it to get more height on the bar. I’ve also seen andrei aramnau do it on some snatch videos of him. The explosion however didn’t come from there, it came from hips and thighs and THAT is the main reason why anyone would want to learn the olympic lifts without an interest in olympic lifting(in other words if he simply wanted to learn to power clean). In any case, especially a beginner should not worry about the ankle joint. Simply push through the heels, the feet will do the right thing in 99% of cases in my experience.
Here’s the poster from Pendlay I was talking about:
http://www.californiastrength.com/store/catalog/product/gallery/id/6/image/9/
I’m not trying to sell the thing, but I think it shows a good frame by frame of what’s going on. Look at the fourth frame - this is the point of explosion or start of the second pull; some call it the “high hang” if you’re practicing cleans from the hang and not from the floor. Notice how the knees are bent and the torso is vertical. This is correct. I couldn’t do a full clean until I learned to get into this position. From here, the bar goes into a correct path and lands where it’s supposed to land. All you need to do is drop under. I remember when I first did a full clean I thought, “Wow, that was easy. Why do people make such a big deal about it?” Okay, I’m not going to blow smoke up your ass - full cleans with a lighter weight are easy. I still struggle a bit when the bar gets heavy, but that’s to be expected. My point is that this lift really is about getting into the correct positions. The clean is such a fast lift (the snatch is even faster) that you can’t make adjustments on the fly as you can in powerlifting. I’ve read articles from Dave Tate where he’s giving lifters coaching cues the whole time they’re doing the squat. The only time you can give a coaching cue in the clean is at the start of the lift, and then right before the jerk (assuming you’re in competition). But I would argue that even that is too little too late.
I would urge everyone here to practice the clean from that high hang position. I stil do. Leave your ego at the door because you will most likely be using less weight. Then again, if you’ve been struggling with the clean, you might actually be able to use more! Starting from the high hang will develop lots of power and explosiveness. If your goal in learning the clean is to develop strength and power and you don’t want to compete, I would argue that you really don’t need to start from the floor because the most beneficial portion of the lift starts from the high hang position.
agree with mike. Although I think once you learn the movement, you should transition to the floor, but start from the high hang just like the pendlay videos show, even with a lot of weight.
Slow to the knee, fast to the hip, punch with the heels.
mmm…
fast off the floor, bar gaining in momentum (building speed off the floor) then FRIGGING FAST AS YOU CAN as you hip drive the bloody hell out of it (in an UPWARDS rather than OUTWARDS direction). then of course you gotta retreat your hips ASAP and get your ass under it FAST AS YOU CAN.
but then… if you overthink it you cannot move at all.
lolz.
or maybe that is just me.
this guy freaks me out. now that is fast:
the clean is the same(ish)
Mike, you are a bloody ripper! Thanks for posting that link. It’s shed more light for me.
I’m noticing one arm db snatches to have a very good carryover.
Getting close to a 220 hang clean too.