[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
Catalonia>unrelenting reality[/quote]
One city, in one country, for a limited time, during war…
Compared to, get this, the rest of known natural history.
Gem, this post is one.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Negativity aside, the example is not legitimate, at least from what I’ve read.
We are talking about a 3-4 year period during wartime. The sample is too small and too specific for analysis.
How would the same model work over a period of 50 years, during peacetime, and with an economy 1,000x larger? It is extremely hard to say. [/quote]
To my knowledge it happens to be the only example, and it did worked for a couple years. Had it never even been tried the lot of the cronies here would be jumping up and down that it wouldn’t work for a day. I was unaware of this example completely and am not surprised it worked even for a limited amount of time.
What I’m trying to point out in part is most people on this forum are the likes to call others stupid before stating exactly what you said because it brings a slight bit of merit to an idea which we were all taught growing up is a complete taboo. Is this another lie we have been brought up with? Something we were brought up to be afraid of? I remember being a kid talking all kinds of crap about Russians back when Reagan was in office, was taught to fear anything other than democracy and capitalism without even knowing or being taught what the hell communism, socialism and all that were. I remember the ultimate insult when I was in 4th grade or so was calling someone a Russian Spy lol.
Here we are adults, supposedly discussing politics and world issues and we can’t discuss democracy and capitalism without some sort of dogma attached to it. I bring up Thailand and serfdom because I think it could be around the corner. One thing I learned about man, never underestimate a man’s greed. Our society is one where you get ahead doing what others wont, mostly bad things others wont because you generally don’t get rich helping the needy, you get rich helping the wanting.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Our society is one where you get ahead doing what others wont [/quote]
This is exactly why Marxism will not work. I took the parts about greed out because I don’t agree with you. The vast majority, in my opinion, get ahead through hard work, dedication, and sacrifice. Not because they are greedy back stabbing assholes. That’s just my opinion though. It’s like steroids, 99% of users are fine, that 1% fucks it up for everybody else. For every Maddoff there are 99 Buffets.
Ambitious people with strong work ethic aren’t going to simply accept their place at the table. History has taught us this lesson 100x over.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Negativity aside, the example is not legitimate, at least from what I’ve read.
We are talking about a 3-4 year period during wartime. The sample is too small and too specific for analysis.
How would the same model work over a period of 50 years, during peacetime, and with an economy 1,000x larger? It is extremely hard to say. [/quote]
To my knowledge it happens to be the only example, and it did worked for a couple years. Had it never even been tried the lot of the cronies here would be jumping up and down that it wouldn’t work for a day. I was unaware of this example completely and am not surprised it worked even for a limited amount of time.
What I’m trying to point out in part is most people on this forum are the likes to call others stupid before stating exactly what you said because it brings a slight bit of merit to an idea which we were all taught growing up is a complete taboo. Is this another lie we have been brought up with? Something we were brought up to be afraid of? I remember being a kid talking all kinds of crap about Russians back when Reagan was in office, was taught to fear anything other than democracy and capitalism without even knowing or being taught what the hell communism, socialism and all that were. I remember the ultimate insult when I was in 4th grade or so was calling someone a Russian Spy lol.
Here we are adults, supposedly discussing politics and world issues and we can’t discuss democracy and capitalism without some sort of dogma attached to it. I bring up Thailand and serfdom because I think it could be around the corner. One thing I learned about man, never underestimate a man’s greed. Our society is one where you get ahead doing what others wont, mostly bad things others wont because you generally don’t get rich helping the needy, you get rich helping the wanting. [/quote]
OK, I was unnecessarily harsh with Kareem. Sorry about that.
So lets look at it differently. I’m a coal miner in the early 1900’s Appalachia. I live in a company house- built for me to live in and deducted from my pay each week. My pay is company scrip. These scrip can be cashed in at the company store in exchange for food, household items, and what ever else. The difference is reimbursed with company scrip. Everybody in the neighborhood has a garden for veggies and a couple of fruit trees. Most people are old world craftsmen of some type. Within this little patch is it’s own self contained economy and most people are reasonably well fed, have most of what they need and everything just hums right along on it’s merry way.
Now after a couple of years of whacking away at a coal seam for a typical 12 hour day, 6 days a week I want to go on vacation to this beach that I heard about down in Chesapeake bay.
Why can’t I go?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Negativity aside, the example is not legitimate, at least from what I’ve read.
We are talking about a 3-4 year period during wartime. The sample is too small and too specific for analysis.
How would the same model work over a period of 50 years, during peacetime, and with an economy 1,000x larger? It is extremely hard to say. [/quote]
Not only war time, but Civil War. And not only Civil War, but a Great Depression (yes, they had it in Spain), and not only a Great Depression, but a region with active mob “justice” going on in the streets.
What is your criteria for claiming that the economy was working at this point in time where anarchical collectivism was supposedly a savior?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
I’m against government recognition of LLCs. I may have misworded my statement(can’t remember exactly what I said), but I just meant that I’m against any government involvement in the economy. [/quote]
Ideals aside, how would the courts handle liability and torts without recognition of such contracts?[/quote]
Any court system should recognize contracts. Any group wishing to limit it liability would just have to have any customer sign a contract accepting such.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The fact that the Catalonian example keeps getting used in this type discussion exemplifies how weak this philosophy of anarchism truly is.
The example is a joke.
Anarchism (in its pure form) is a joke.
L
O
L[/quote]
Have you asked yourself why you believe that? I can certainly see saying you don’t believe it’s possible, due to human nature(Possibly due to my Christian beliefs, I believe many people are certainly motivated by evil-such as power/control over others-and not just profit/self-improvement. That is why I don’t believe anarchy is possible.), but why do you say it’s a joke? Why do you believe it’s necessary to hand over weapons and decision making power to somebody else? Or to have others turn over theirs to you?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The only real way to find out if this type of “government” would work would be to just try it, which is unlikely to happen. [/quote]
Variations of the idea have been tried.
Didn’t really work out all that well… Man’s will to power and all that.
He who controls the food, controls the weapons. He who controls the weapons, controls the other resources. He who controls the resources, controls the population.
The major flaw with central planning, which is the framework of Marxist ideals, is arrogance. People are arrogant enough to think we are smart enough to plan out life, society, etc… We aren’t, lol, and never will be. [/quote]
And arrogant enough to think people will just accept their place in society. [/quote]
Willingly accept their place in society.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The fact that the Catalonian example keeps getting used in this type discussion exemplifies how weak this philosophy of anarchism truly is.
The example is a joke.
Anarchism (in its pure form) is a joke.
L
O
L[/quote]
Have you asked yourself why you believe that? [/quote]
Not to speak for Push, but if I had to answer it would be because every human institution in history has been corrupted and stained by man’s fallibility and will to power.
Every religion, every government, every norm (shit look at the basis for Critical Theory (you know marxist bullshit)), everything has be corrupted at one point or another, in one way or another.
It is 2013, humans have been engaging in civilization for how long? And we can’t NOT slaughter unborn children with vacuums… How does anyone conclude that vast groups of people will suddenly live a virtuous life of altruistic purity?
People kill each other for pieces of paper, flashy shoes, and just for the thrill of it. Mentally ill people bring weapons into crowded place and slaughter people just “because”. That isn’t ever going away. Our brains are hard wired to fail, eventually.
The smart and violent members of our ancestral pool passed along their genes, not the altruistic pacifists.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Not to speak for Push, but if I had to answer it would be because every human institution in history has been corrupted and stained by man’s fallibility and will to power.
Every religion, every government, every norm (shit look at the basis for Critical Theory (you know marxist bullshit)), everything has be corrupted at one point or another, in one way or another.
It is 2013, humans have been engaging in civilization for how long? And we can’t NOT slaughter unborn children with vacuums… How does anyone conclude that vast groups of people will suddenly live a virtuous life of altruistic purity?
People kill each other for pieces of paper, flashy shoes, and just for the thrill of it. Mentally ill people bring weapons into crowded place and slaughter people just “because”. That isn’t ever going away. Our brains are hard wired to fail, eventually.
The smart and violent members of our ancestral pool passed along their genes, not the altruistic pacifists.
[/quote]
Right, right, but that’s not what was said. With every form of government having been tried and having gone to shit, why call anarchy a joke? At least with anarchy the state has to start at the ground floor. Here in the U.S., we are likely to end up in a totalitarian state, not having fought back in a major way since 1865.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
What incentive was there to work in catalonia during the anarchist phase? there is incentive to work so you can eat, get new clothes, have nice dinners at the communal restaurants, so they could have education and go to the pub and have sports events etc etc.
[/quote]
I don’t know anything about Catalonia. Do they produce anything other than essentials to survive? What sporting events? I hope it wasn’t European football run by capitalist states.
I disagree. If I can not improve my station there is no point in working hard, furthering my education, getting an education to begin with, taking a chance on innovation, etc…
Someone has to come up with “what get’s produced.” If that party doesn’t have incentive to innovate there will be nothing for the wokring class to produce in short order.
Hell, people today already accept “free” food and money to do nothing when McDonalds is hiring. You think all of a sudden people will have drive because they get a piece of what they produce. That already happens, it’s called a salary.
He’s 21. What is there you don’t know when you’re 21? It’s the smartest you’ll ever be in your lifetime; you’re practically a fucking guru.
Humble yourself and learn from him.[/quote]
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Awe, your feelings are still hurt, and so now you’re name calling.
There, there, little boy. It’ll be alright.
Don’t worry; someday you will have that class that you so freely preach about.
[/quote]
Because you clearly have the class to treat people with a default decency. You are someone like your namesake, balanced and centered lol.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Negativity aside, the example is not legitimate, at least from what I’ve read.
We are talking about a 3-4 year period during wartime. The sample is too small and too specific for analysis.
How would the same model work over a period of 50 years, during peacetime, and with an economy 1,000x larger? It is extremely hard to say. [/quote]
precisely.
His example, to use a sports analogy is like saying “Emmitt Smith broke of a dive for an 80 yard run for a touchdown on the second play in the first quarter. Therefore in order to win the game, all we need to do is run 22 dive for every offensive play for the remainder of the game.”
It is a silly, silly attempt to try and prove something works. In the macro, no reasonable person could conclude that the system could work spread out to larger, diversified populations, based solely on the example itself. Too many variables to take it serious. [/quote]
But without the example I was stuck sitting here saying one would be limited to our imaginations, and sure enough there was an example. When he brought up the example most everyone jumped his ass. Is that from the Dogma we have been brought up to believe, or is the example really stupid as people say?
Seems to be it’s an example that’s at least worth exploring. Just because there are ideas out there that we don’t like, or are horrible doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be explored or understood, it takes courage to explore those things so we don’t make the same mistakes.
People imagine alternatives to the government we have and by default most of us imagine brutal governments that impose crazy rule and take away, “liberty.” Some of the example’s include Appalachian coal miners. But what’s interesting is those mini economies that people are so afraid of happened in the U.S. under our democracy, those are the same mini economies that came about from nations that are democratic capitalistic imposed in S. America and Africa. I’m talking the U.S. Germany, Belgium etc.
I’m also saying that we need to be careful and not take the same path we have taken in he past… When there was no regulations people were exploited horribly in this country. And the same group wants to take the regulations that allowed them to treat American citizens like animals. Appalachians are a great example, but that isn’t at all a model I had in mind. I’m curious to see what other models of government and concepts of liberty are out there in the first place.
I certainly wouldn’t want to impose what I think comes about as the same end mature capitalism imposes on people. I’m trying to point out it ends up treating the working very similarly to the things we have been brought up to fear about Communism. I don’t like being manipulated by fear, I recognize this as something I was raised to be afraid of, so I’m naturally curious about alternatives to capitalism. I think it’s limited to the imagination, I don’t have the best imagination.
If there is one thing we don’t necessarily take advantage of in capitalism is people’s potential. People end up being driven by money, if they can’t find a way to make money via their passions then they settle for careers that bring money as means to some ends. I think there are probably forms of government that could be created which allow more people to chase their dreams, rather than chasing money to chase their dreams. If you were the next poor Einstein and wanted to study physics, but saw there was more money in law, you might end up becoming yet another lawyer for the sake of cash. Maybe this isn’t the best avenue to progress. Perhaps there are better ways to bring out the potential in people? That’s the ultimate resource.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
What incentive was there to work in catalonia during the anarchist phase? there is incentive to work so you can eat, get new clothes, have nice dinners at the communal restaurants, so they could have education and go to the pub and have sports events etc etc.
[/quote]
I don’t know anything about Catalonia. Do they produce anything other than essentials to survive? What sporting events? I hope it wasn’t European football run by capitalist states.
I disagree. If I can not improve my station there is no point in working hard, furthering my education, getting an education to begin with, taking a chance on innovation, etc…
Someone has to come up with “what get’s produced.” If that party doesn’t have incentive to innovate there will be nothing for the wokring class to produce in short order.
Hell, people today already accept “free” food and money to do nothing when McDonalds is hiring. You think all of a sudden people will have drive because they get a piece of what they produce. That already happens, it’s called a salary.
He’s 21. What is there you don’t know when you’re 21? It’s the smartest you’ll ever be in your lifetime; you’re practically a fucking guru.
Humble yourself and learn from him.[/quote]
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Awe, your feelings are still hurt, and so now you’re name calling.
There, there, little boy. It’ll be alright.
Don’t worry; someday you will have that class that you so freely preach about.
[/quote]
Because you clearly have the class to treat people with a default decency. You are someone like your namesake, balanced and centered lol. [/quote]
Awwwe.
I’m so sorry that I hurt your tender feelings.
Please forgive me.
I promise to never do it again.
Truly.
But if it will make you feel a little better, by all means, go ahead and call me more names.
I can take it, little boy.
BTW, no idea who “Fooshin” is. One of your favorite anime characters, perhaps? LMAO.
PS: I want to help you overcome this trauma however I can, so go ahead and have the last word. I won’t answer back. Hope you feel better soon.[/quote]
Aww, what a sweet tenderoni. Fooshin IS my favorite anime Character. He’s this big joke of a fake Japanese guy who thinks he’s very zen, open minded and centered. But in reality he’s just an insecure white dude with a myopic outlook in life who went to Japan since that’s a place that would tolerate and even admire him. Those Japanese and their admiration for white folks, it’s a good thing Fooshin found niche. Quite a funny dude, you should check out some of his forum posts, you’d get a kick!
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
What incentive was there to work in catalonia during the anarchist phase? there is incentive to work so you can eat, get new clothes, have nice dinners at the communal restaurants, so they could have education and go to the pub and have sports events etc etc.
[/quote]
I don’t know anything about Catalonia. Do they produce anything other than essentials to survive? What sporting events? I hope it wasn’t European football run by capitalist states.
I disagree. If I can not improve my station there is no point in working hard, furthering my education, getting an education to begin with, taking a chance on innovation, etc…
Someone has to come up with “what get’s produced.” If that party doesn’t have incentive to innovate there will be nothing for the wokring class to produce in short order.
Hell, people today already accept “free” food and money to do nothing when McDonalds is hiring. You think all of a sudden people will have drive because they get a piece of what they produce. That already happens, it’s called a salary.
He’s 21. What is there you don’t know when you’re 21? It’s the smartest you’ll ever be in your lifetime; you’re practically a fucking guru.
Humble yourself and learn from him.[/quote]
Well look at all the classy responses to his historic example. He cites a legitimate example from the past and all of you turn into a bunch of old bitties. You too Fooshin. [/quote]
Awe, your feelings are still hurt, and so now you’re name calling.
There, there, little boy. It’ll be alright.
Don’t worry; someday you will have that class that you so freely preach about.
[/quote]
Because you clearly have the class to treat people with a default decency. You are someone like your namesake, balanced and centered lol. [/quote]
Awwwe.
I’m so sorry that I hurt your tender feelings.
Please forgive me.
I promise to never do it again.
Truly.
But if it will make you feel a little better, by all means, go ahead and call me more names.
I can take it, little boy.
BTW, no idea who “Fooshin” is. One of your favorite anime characters, perhaps? LMAO.
PS: I want to help you overcome this trauma however I can, so go ahead and have the last word. I won’t answer back. Hope you feel better soon.[/quote]
Aww, what a sweet tenderoni. Fooshin IS my favorite anime Character. He’s this big joke of a fake Japanese guy who thinks he’s very zen, open minded and centered. But in reality he’s just an insecure white dude with a myopic outlook in life who went to Japan since that’s a place that would tolerate and even admire him. Those Japanese and their admiration for white folks, it’s a good thing Fooshin found niche. Quite a funny dude, you should check out some of his forum posts, you’d get a kick! [/quote]
LMAO!!!
Oh man, pure gold!
Moar, please!!!
Ha ha ha ha!!![/quote]
My sweet Tenderoni, you promised me the last word, but since you insist I’ll tell you the tale of Fooshin and his black childhood. Since he grew up with black kids in the ghetto yet his politics are more in line with that of Mitt Romney. I know it sounds and smells like total bullshit, but the great white samurai Fooshin is very cultured, worldly, open minded and not racist at all, just like Japanese folks aren’t racist at all. I promise! But that’s another bedtime story. 
It’s titled Fooshin the Cosmopolitain, tales of the great white samurai.