[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
But how is it not in the working class’s interest to seize say, the apple factory, the microchip manufacturing plant etc and continue the production of goods, that would be in their interests. [/quote]
Because they would go to jail for breaking several laws.
[/quote]
Yes, but we are hypothetically talking about if it succeeded.
[/quote]
You mean across the board, like workers of every company worldwide take over?
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
Jesus christ can we have a rational discussion without this idiocy?[/quote]
No
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
Jesus christ can we have a rational discussion without this idiocy?[/quote]
It’s not idiotic, it’s exactly what would happen if your hypothetical came true.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
The kicker is, I know how to run a company.
I’ll be taking advantage of this once revolution hits.
I’ll be part of the new ruling class.
I love how this is idiocy, but “worker takeover” hypotheticals are completely rational discussions. lmao
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not idiotic, it’s exactly what would happen if your hypothetical came true. [/quote]
After the blood shed, complete disarray and utter breakdown (at least temporarily) of commerce, yes a new ruling class of ultra rich would emerge, and it would end in tyrannical oppression of the “common folk”.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not idiotic, it’s exactly what would happen if your hypothetical came true. [/quote]
After the blood shed, complete disarray and utter breakdown (at least temporarily) of commerce, yes a new ruling class of ultra rich would emerge, and it would end in tyrannical oppression of the “common folk”. [/quote]
A new aristocracy. Sounds fun.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
The kicker is, I know how to run a company.
I’ll be taking advantage of this once revolution hits.
I’ll be part of the new ruling class.
I love how this is idiocy, but “worker takeover” hypotheticals are completely rational discussions. lmao[/quote]
IMO it will happen also and it probably will not be pretty
Tale of Two Cities is about this very subject
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
The kicker is, I know how to run a company.
I’ll be taking advantage of this once revolution hits.
I’ll be part of the new ruling class.
I love how this is idiocy, but “worker takeover” hypotheticals are completely rational discussions. lmao[/quote]
IMO it will happen also and it probably will not be pretty
[/quote]
I disagree. As long as smart TV’s, Netflix, iPhones and other such luxuries as window AC units and internet service are so readily available even to poor people, then there will not be a revolution.
Christ you can get a Honda Civic for 18k. It isn’t a bad car at all.
If you’re talking about India or China, then sure I agree, but in America? Nah… FDR said all the same shit Obama and Warren do, and look what happened, no revolution. (That was while the bastion of Contemporary American Liberals was tossing Japanese people in camps, lol)
every time there is an economic downturn these fantasy dreams of utopia pop up again and again, and when things go back to normal, ration people ignore the silly notion all over again.
[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
There would be no competition, the working class would take control of the only way to produce and wouldn’t work for any supposed private company. How would those companies produce with no workers?[/quote]
Would the working class kill off the entrepeneur class? The workers would soon be working for the best of their own class. Then the same problems will again arise. That could continue until only the least competent are left. They would suffer a bit more each time.
If the working class leaves the entrepeneur class alive, then it will soon again be working for it. The workers may be able to produce current technology, but the entrepeneur/creator class will improve it. At first, the newest technology will be incredibly expensive, but the richest man in the new society will still desire the best. Then the second richest man will want the newest technology. There will soon be enough demand to pay the workers enough to bring them back.
If a man can create something, he doesn’t need another to build it for him, although letting others do the work they can handle will give the creator more time and energy to continue to improve it.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
but the entrepeneur/creator class will improve it. .[/quote]
Why? What incentive would there be to do such a thing?
You can’t get rich, you can’t get ahead, no one has private capital to invest in your idea…
Why do you assume this would happen? Wide spread altruism?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
but the entrepeneur/creator class will improve it. .[/quote]
Why? What incentive would there be to do such a thing?
You can’t get rich, you can’t get ahead, no one has private capital to invest in your idea…
Why do you assume this would happen? Wide spread altruism?[/quote]
I think he means assuming out current structure remains intact. Not with the entrepreneurial class working for the working class.
At least that’s what I took from his post?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
but the entrepeneur/creator class will improve it. .[/quote]
Why? What incentive would there be to do such a thing?
You can’t get rich, you can’t get ahead, no one has private capital to invest in your idea…
Why do you assume this would happen? Wide spread altruism?[/quote]
I think he means assuming out current structure remains intact. Not with the entrepreneurial class working for the working class.
At least that’s what I took from his post?
[/quote]
I’m confused I guess.
First off, no one company would be allowed to have a worker takeover. Either the government would step in, or rational citizens would squash it on their own by fleeing the clusterfuck that it would be.
So, in my mind, if we are talking about the situation at all, it would have to be system wide. And if it is system wide, why would any contribute into the system that got nothing in return? You’re telling me I’m supposed to use my skills I worked this hard to get, to get back the same thing as my buddy who digs holes with shovels, who is going to get the same thing back that the person who flies jets, who gets the same as the CEO of a multi-nation billion dollar company?
Fuck that noise. And because some many people will say that you have two options: utter system wide failure (all Marxist experiments) or stagnation and little to no innovation.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
but the entrepeneur/creator class will improve it. .[/quote]
Why? What incentive would there be to do such a thing?
You can’t get rich, you can’t get ahead, no one has private capital to invest in your idea…
Why do you assume this would happen? Wide spread altruism?[/quote]
The worker class would be left with old technology, but it would already have the equipment to continue producing it. The creator class would likely not want to starve, so it would have to create better products. Those new products would then be desired by the wealthiest members of the worker class. Prices will eventually fall so more of the workers can buy the superior goods. Once a large enough market for the goods exists, members of the working will voluntarily go back to work for the creators and the greater wage they can pay.
Only use of force by the workers could prevent such a scenario, but that would soon leave the workers in far worse condition than they had been in at the start.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
The creator class would likely not want to starve, so it would have to create better products. [/quote]
Why? Why do you assume there would be a creator class left, first off?
Secondly, what incentive do they have to create? What incentive do they have to learn how to create in the first place? Who is going to feed them for all the failures that come with R&D? What reason doesn’t anyone have to subsidize the multitude of failed ventures if there is little reward for the successful beyond what already exists?
Wait, isn’t that why there was a revolution in the first place? So that didn’t happen?
What incentive would there be to drive down the price?
[quote] Once a large enough market for the goods exists, members of the working will voluntarily go back to work for the creators and the greater wage they can pay.
[/quote]
I know this wasn’t your hypothetical, but what market? There would be no market.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
The kicker is, I know how to run a company.
I’ll be taking advantage of this once revolution hits.
I’ll be part of the new ruling class.
I love how this is idiocy, but “worker takeover” hypotheticals are completely rational discussions. lmao[/quote]
IMO it will happen also and it probably will not be pretty
[/quote]
I disagree. As long as smart TV’s, Netflix, iPhones and other such luxuries as window AC units and internet service are so readily available even to poor people, then there will not be a revolution.
Christ you can get a Honda Civic for 18k. It isn’t a bad car at all.
If you’re talking about India or China, then sure I agree, but in America? Nah… FDR said all the same shit Obama and Warren do, and look what happened, no revolution. (That was while the bastion of Contemporary American Liberals was tossing Japanese people in camps, lol)
every time there is an economic downturn these fantasy dreams of utopia pop up again and again, and when things go back to normal, ration people ignore the silly notion all over again. [/quote]
Spot on sir. It is ironic how “pissed” Americans are at the government. You can see it on facebook posts while pizza that was delivered to their house is being eaten and they are only getting up to answer the door when Amazon delivers the latest toy. Americans are far to fat and happy to revolt. You need a pissed off populace to have a revolution. We have nothing close to that in the least bit.
I’m reminded of this every time an election happens and half the country claims they are moving to Canada if Clinton wins, I mean Bush, I mean Obama, I mean other side candidate I don’t like in 2016. Those people still live in the country. All talk, no action. I’ve got about as much chance of being an NBA center (I’m 5’10) as we do of having a revolution anytime soon.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
The creator class would likely not want to starve, so it would have to create better products. [/quote]
Why? Why do you assume there would be a creator class left, first off?
Secondly, what incentive do they have to create? What incentive do they have to learn how to create in the first place? Who is going to feed them for all the failures that come with R&D? What reason doesn’t anyone have to subsidize the multitude of failed ventures if there is little reward for the successful beyond what already exists?
L
Wait, isn’t that why there was a revolution in the first place? So that didn’t happen?
What incentive would there be to drive down the price?
[quote] Once a large enough market for the goods exists, members of the working will voluntarily go back to work for the creators and the greater wage they can pay.
[/quote]
I know this wasn’t your hypothetical, but what market? There would be no market. [/quote]
I don’t think the creators were killed off in this scenario, only their factories and equipment were stolen. The creators would have the same incentive they now do, unless I misunderstood the scenario.
That’s exactly why the revolution happened in the first place, and why communist utopian ideas are ridiculous.
I don’t think all market forces were eliminated in this scenario, so the market would still exist(Although it would be skewed by the fact that the workers stole their equipment while the creators had to start from scratch.).
The prices of goods will fall because new and better goods will be created.
This is why socialist and communist utopias are ridiculous.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
This is why socialist and communist utopias are ridiculous. [/quote]
Thank you… I was called a whole bunch of names for saying this same thing, and then dragged into a pointless semantics argument for saying the same thing.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
This is why socialist and communist utopias are ridiculous. [/quote]
Thank you… I was called a whole bunch of names for saying this same thing, and then dragged into a pointless semantics argument for saying the same thing. [/quote]
Don’t be sophomoric.
just kidding zecarlo…
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No Beans, Bill Gates is rich and that isn’t fair. So we (the workers) are gonna take over. Ya then we’ll be rich and people will work for us![/quote]
The kicker is, I know how to run a company.
I’ll be taking advantage of this once revolution hits.
I’ll be part of the new ruling class.
I love how this is idiocy, but “worker takeover” hypotheticals are completely rational discussions. lmao[/quote]
IMO it will happen also and it probably will not be pretty
[/quote]
I disagree. As long as smart TV’s, Netflix, iPhones and other such luxuries as window AC units and internet service are so readily available even to poor people, then there will not be a revolution.
Christ you can get a Honda Civic for 18k. It isn’t a bad car at all.
If you’re talking about India or China, then sure I agree, but in America? Nah… FDR said all the same shit Obama and Warren do, and look what happened, no revolution. (That was while the bastion of Contemporary American Liberals was tossing Japanese people in camps, lol)
every time there is an economic downturn these fantasy dreams of utopia pop up again and again, and when things go back to normal, ration people ignore the silly notion all over again. [/quote]
Spot on sir. It is ironic how “pissed” Americans are at the government. You can see it on facebook posts while pizza that was delivered to their house is being eaten and they are only getting up to answer the door when Amazon delivers the latest toy. Americans are far to fat and happy to revolt. You need a pissed off populace to have a revolution. We have nothing close to that in the least bit.
I’m reminded of this every time an election happens and half the country claims they are moving to Canada if Clinton wins, I mean Bush, I mean Obama, I mean other side candidate I don’t like in 2016. Those people still live in the country. All talk, no action. I’ve got about as much chance of being an NBA center (I’m 5’10) as we do of having a revolution anytime soon. [/quote]
Don’t know if I’ve ever agreed with you more, lol.
We have an imperfect system, sure. There will never be a perfect one. However the explosion of individual prosperity in our country in its short history is arguably the most predominate in the history of mankind.
The “poor” in America ( most of Europe too) are the mega right to actual poor people.
No rational person is going to trade in iPhones and Air Conditioning for waiting in line for government shoes and bread because of some idiotic Marxist fantasy world.
I may bitch and moan about out government, but it is still a hell of a lot better than other places. If we could just fix some serious issues, like spying, drone executions with no due process, etc… We’d be pretty damn well off.