[quote]jarc wrote:
lixy wrote:
therover wrote:
( my children don’t play with bows and arrows, so 2 million to a wooden arrow maker I cannot comprehend).
Actually, it’s 6 millions.
Where are you getting 6 million? Has anyone read the the bill?
[/quote]
The following:
[quote]malonetd wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Wrong.
I send 2 kids to private school. Total cost is less than my personal contribution to the public school system via percentage of my property tax.
Really?
I have no reason not to believe this, but I didn’t find this to be true in either California or Wisconsin, and property taxes are much higher here in Wisconsin.
I don’t know, maybe I was just looking at really expensive private schools.[/quote]
Check your PM 
[quote]lixy wrote:
I just refuse to believe that in the great Satan that is the United States of America, these freaks are the best your country has to offer.
[/quote]
fixed it for ya.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I don’t see/hear the majority of people bitching because they get to send their children to public school free of charge.
Um…You’ve never heard of school taxes, they come in various forms. Come on say you were kidding about the above.
In most cases I hear people bitching about how the public schools are underfunded (which they are). The public school system is a socialized institution that even those who use the term “socialize” like some sort of 4 letter word don’t seem to have a problem with.
Who says that the school system works? I think it’s the biggest cluster fuck in the nation.
A kid spends how many hours per day in school? Doing what?
Lunch?
Gym?
Study Hall?
Art?
Tell me that important topics like Math, English, Science etc. couldn’t be taught in 3hrs per day and then send the kids home…Oh wait…the powerful teachers union wouldn’t like that. So much for common sense.[/quote]
yeah, fuck history, economics, government, etc. 3hrs a day should be fine
[quote]Doesn’t that same union strongly endorse obama? Yes…yes they do and every other liberal idiot that has ever run for public office.
Don’t ever mention the public school system as an actual positive working example of a socialistic structure.
[/quote]
Can you name a single successful (country wide) school system that is not funded with government funds? Can you name a single country that has achieved universal primary education without govt funding?
Where are you getting 6 million? Has anyone read the the bill?
Jarc…that’s my problem. If I start to READ this bill, I will want to choke the nearest politician.
The only reason I thought it was 2 million was due to a piece on TV. At that point I had enough, but also knew this was another piece of shit bill loaded with extras, in a time when most of these assholes turned into chicken little and said the sky was falling.
What smacks in the face of credibility, is the fact that 1/8th of the bill is pork products.
Is their thought process something like ‘Since we had worked on some of this shit anyway, why not ammend/add it to this current bill since it has so much momentum and will pass easily’ ? Do they think something like’ Hey, the American people will do what they always do, complain, throw their hands up in the air, but it really doesn’t matter’ ?
Guess what…Nov 4 matters. I will vote to throw out every incumbent who voted for this.
I understand that something has to be done…but adding garbage to the mix is not my idea of prudent, functional government. Oh wait, those words don’t exist in the current Legislative branch, or for any branch at this point !
Sorry for the rant !
[quote]lixy wrote:
jarc wrote:
lixy wrote:
therover wrote:
( my children don’t play with bows and arrows, so 2 million to a wooden arrow maker I cannot comprehend).
Actually, it’s 6 millions.
Where are you getting 6 million? Has anyone read the the bill?
The following:
Thanks for the information but lets get it straight. They are not adding $6 mill for wooden arrows, or 192 for Rum. These are all tax breaks that are already in place. The only reason people know about these is because these are the ones that sound the most outrageous.
Has anyone seen that the Bill also has extensions in place for renewable energy credit, and for Advanced coal projects, and I thought there was something in there for the GINA bill alos. They have also extended the tax breaks that the Bush administration put into place and that the Congress wanted to let lapse so our taxes went up.
There is good and bad in the bill…Read it here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1424.eas:
HOpe you have some time on your hands.
I still stand by my argument that the ones running this country, senate and congress, need to pull there heads out of the typical DC thinking, as McCain says he will do. Stop puttig in all the malarcky and take care of business at hand.
In your youtube clip he states just that. He will Veto these bills when they cross his desk and he will call out the ones that try to pass the pork barrel BS.
He understood that this economic stabilization bill had to pass to “save” the economy so he voted yes.
Everybody reading this post need to visit the link I put in and see just what was passed. Monies were not necessarily added to the “bailout”, existing tax breaks were extended and some sections were re written.
I still am not sure if the “wooden arrow” act was extended or if it was just re written. I am thinking that this wooden arrow act would have still cost us 6 million whether it was in this bail out or not…If you find other informatino please let me know.
I think everybody that is following this thread is feeling the same thing, something needs to change in the Government. We need to get back to the basics, take care of what is important first and then start worrying about renaming museums and post offices.
I think McCain is the only available at this time that will go in there and try to change it.
I feel Obama has an agenda to get in there and re structure the government to fit his needs and his beliefs and not those of the people.
[quote]therover wrote:
Where are you getting 6 million? Has anyone read the the bill?
Jarc…that’s my problem. If I start to READ this bill, I will want to choke the nearest politician.
The only reason I thought it was 2 million was due to a piece on TV. At that point I had enough, but also knew this was another piece of shit bill loaded with extras, in a time when most of these assholes turned into chicken little and said the sky was falling.
What smacks in the face of credibility, is the fact that 1/8th of the bill is pork products.
Is their thought process something like ‘Since we had worked on some of this shit anyway, why not ammend/add it to this current bill since it has so much momentum and will pass easily’ ? Do they think something like’ Hey, the American people will do what they always do, complain, throw their hands up in the air, but it really doesn’t matter’ ?
Guess what…Nov 4 matters. I will vote to throw out every incumbent who voted for this.
I understand that something has to be done…but adding garbage to the mix is not my idea of prudent, functional government. Oh wait, those words don’t exist in the current Legislative branch, or for any branch at this point !
Sorry for the rant !
[/quote]
throver,
Dude I totally feel your frustration, believe me. Read my answer to lyxy(sp?). If you listen to McCain talk about this he states something along the lines or …they can’t help it. It is the way washington has done it for years and it needs to stop. He likes to show people his black marker, it is the one he will veto these bills with. He will make the senators and congressmen famous that try to pass Pork Barrels across his desk.
I have a daughter with genetic kidney problems and it pisses me off that the GINA bill is also in this CF economic bill. It pisses me off that in order to get the GINA bill up and running more BS Pork had to be added to it.
They need to take care of the people first and make America what it used to be. We, the Americans, can make this a great nation again. Don’t stop fighting for what you believe is right.
Listen to the entire length of this clip: http://www.youtube.com/...u1roQLI
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I don’t see/hear the majority of people bitching because they get to send their children to public school free of charge.
Um…You’ve never heard of school taxes, they come in various forms. Come on say you were kidding about the above.
In most cases I hear people bitching about how the public schools are underfunded (which they are). The public school system is a socialized institution that even those who use the term “socialize” like some sort of 4 letter word don’t seem to have a problem with.
Who says that the school system works? I think it’s the biggest cluster fuck in the nation.
A kid spends how many hours per day in school? Doing what?
Lunch?
Gym?
Study Hall?
Art?
Tell me that important topics like Math, English, Science etc. couldn’t be taught in 3hrs per day and then send the kids home…Oh wait…the powerful teachers union wouldn’t like that. So much for common sense.
yeah, fuck history, economics, government, etc. 3hrs a day should be fine
Oh darn…you don’t get it huh? I guess I should have explained the concept a little better.
Okay:
a kid goes to HS and on MWF for example spends 40 min in each class, that amounts to four classes in two hours and forty minutes. the rest of the 20 min time period takes place in changing classes etc. Tu and Th he takes the classes that he didn’t get on MWF only spends a bit longer in each as we have only two days to work with.
A kid arrives at school at 9:00 leaves at 12:00 on most days. The taxpayers save a bundle as you don’t need as many, teachers and facilities. And the kids actually get a BETTER education as their total focus is on the exact subjects (and other important ones) that you mentioned above.
It’s novel I’ll grant you that, but I think it would work quite well.
Can you name a single successful (country wide) school system that is not funded with government funds? Can you name a single country that has achieved universal primary education without govt funding?
You’ve missed the point…
The above is still funded with tax dollars, but there are far less tax dollars needed. It would be a HUGE savings to the tax payers and I think a far better education for the kids. And on top of that they only have to attend for 3 hrs per day.
Everyone wins except the teachers union…so…that’s a happy ending.
[/quote]
Mick,
Your ideas sound fine. They would probably work for some kids. But I really doubt they would work for ALL kids. Start a charter school or private school with your plans, but changing the whole system to be similar to that simply wouldn’t work (especially in middle and elementary schools). Personally, I’d want my kid learning math, for example, for more than 2-3x/week @ 40min/session. Again, your ideas sound fine, but not on a system-wide basis.
But the point Sentoguy was discussing didn’t have to do with specific pedagogy. Some were arguing that subsidizing things equated to socialism, this simply isn’t the case. And as you said in this post, you would still want govt to fund education, just a different structure for education…would you then call yourself a socialist? Of course not.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Funding some social programs is not tantamount to socialism.
Like, which ones?
In my mind, socialism means state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods with the goal of broadscale wealth redistribution and the creation of an egalitarian society.
Yes, in your mind and a nice copy/paste job from wikipedia
That’s not what a slight tax increase on the wealthy and funding several social programs deemed to improve the lives of citizens with the goal of increasing overall longterm prosperity does or aims to do.
‘… slight tax increase on the wealthy’ – again, here we go with income distribution and class warfare. It must suck to loathe those with more money than you.
You do understand that Marxism, Socialism, and Communism are all ‘egalitarian’ philosophies that sound great (to some) in theory, but have been abysmal failures in History (ie in practice). In social Darwinism, they are evolutionary dead-ends.
A simple ‘flat tax’ is more ‘egalitarian’ than any progressive tax structure (ie one that favors income distribution) could ever be.
Again, which social programs are not socialism?[/quote]
I agree with wikipedia. I don’t believe any social programs in isolation make a socialist society. I don’t agree with many of Obama’s programs. But we will remain a fundamentally capitalist society even if they were all passsed. Rich will still be rich. Rich will just pay an extra $1000 a year. Poor will still be poor. They’ll just have a few more safety nets and opportunities to rise. Incidentally, Obama will not be able to enact all his plans with the economy in this state. He’ll have to prioritize. Even McCain will not be able to push his entire agenda. The money’s not there.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, not free of charge. You pay taxes to send your children to school. But you pay WAY less than you would if you had to send them to private school.
Wrong.
I send 2 kids to private school. Total cost is less than my personal contribution to the public school system via percentage of my property tax.
The teachers at the private school are paid 60% of what the Government school teachers (unionized) make, have 1/2 the benefits, and a quarter of the budget, yet the test scores out score every public school in the state (not a unique thing).
Where are my vouchers?
Incidentally, socialized states/nation do not necessarily preclude private ownership of land. Look at the rest of the world.
Sentoguy wrote:
France= socialized health care system
Canada= socialized health care system
Germany= socialized health care system
Great Britain= socialized health care system
Sweden= socialized health care system
and the list goes on.
USA = Best healthcare in the world
…end of list
Excellent post.
And the teachers union is dead set against the voucher system because they know what would happen to the decaying public school system if that happened.
[/quote]
Agreed. The voucher system is a bad educational policy. Schools need money. True. But the only thing that really has a chance at working is early intervention.