The Palin/Biden Debate: 10/02/08

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:

Excellent post.

And the teachers union is dead set against the voucher system because they know what would happen to the decaying public school system if that happened.

Agreed. The voucher system is a bad educational policy.

Hey Junior you agree with me and then in the next sentence you state the opposite…I don’t think that’s what your Professor meant when he said you should be able to argue both sides of an issue…

Schools need money.

Let’s rephrase that SHCOOLS WASTE MONEY.

[/quote]

SOME schools waste money. Some schools have none to waste. There are shools where students SHARE textbooks 3 to a book. (By the way, such schools do not have art, music, and wood shop classes like you were complaining of above. Of that I assure you.) Throwing money blindly at poor schools will not solve the problems. But some schools simply don’t have the funds for students to prosper no matter how smart they were, and even early intevention and trying to foster a culture of education where parents read to kids and stress the importance of education would not fix that. I don’t see where I argued both sides of the argument. I’m not and never have been against any and all educational funding (It’s just not, alone, the answer). I am against the government providing parents with educational vouchers allowing them to send kids to schools of their choice. I presumed that’s what you were talking about.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, not free of charge. You pay taxes to send your children to school. But you pay WAY less than you would if you had to send them to private school.

Wrong.

I send 2 kids to private school. Total cost is less than my personal contribution to the public school system via percentage of my property tax.

The teachers at the private school are paid 60% of what the Government school teachers (unionized) make, have 1/2 the benefits, and a quarter of the budget, yet the test scores out score every public school in the state (not a unique thing).

Where are my vouchers?

Incidentally, socialized states/nation do not necessarily preclude private ownership of land. Look at the rest of the world.

Sentoguy wrote:
France= socialized health care system
Canada= socialized health care system
Germany= socialized health care system
Great Britain= socialized health care system
Sweden= socialized health care system

and the list goes on.

USA = Best healthcare in the world

…end of list
[/quote]

Saying we have the best healthcare in the world is only half true. Are our higher end operations and procedures better? Absolutely.

I am not sure how day to day things compare, doctors, dentists, etc. Or for the lower end hospital stuff either.

But you still have a higher chance dying from an infection in an American hospital than in a European one (from MRSA). And I read that an infection is likely to add $10,000 to your bill.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
And why does she love her? Because she’s every womans sister, every daughters Mom, every older ladies daughter and every mans fantasty…Or maybe just mine…

Yeah, just yours. Well apparently not just yours, but definitely not mine. I really don’t understand this. I mean, yeah, she’s attractive – for a politician! Is your fantasy really a middle-aged woman. I feel sorry for you if that’s the best your sexual imagination can muster.

And I’m tired of hearing about hockey moms. No one plays hockey in America.

Do you watch Keith Olberman? You sound a lot like him.
[/quote]

I haven’t watched Olberman since he was on SportCenter. Was is it the hockey mom comment? Seriously, no one plays hockey. I live in a northern state with full-blown winters. Not a single one of my friends growing up ever played hockey. I didn’t meet anyone that played hockey until I was in the military.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
The money’s not there.[/quote]

Oh yeah, that’s kept them fiscally responsible in the past and present…

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:

Excellent post.

And the teachers union is dead set against the voucher system because they know what would happen to the decaying public school system if that happened.

Agreed. The voucher system is a bad educational policy.

Hey Junior you agree with me and then in the next sentence you state the opposite…I don’t think that’s what your Professor meant when he said you should be able to argue both sides of an issue…

Schools need money.

Let’s rephrase that SHCOOLS WASTE MONEY.

SOME schools waste money. Some schools have none to waste. There are shools where students SHARE textbooks 3 to a book. (By the way, such schools do not have art, music, and wood shop classes like you were complaining of above. Of that I assure you.) Throwing money blindly at poor schools will not solve the problems. But some schools simply don’t have the funds for students to prosper no matter how smart they were, and even early intevention and trying to foster a culture of education where parents read to kids and stress the importance of education would not fix that. [/quote]

The Federal Government spends 600 billion dollars per year on our schools and thats not enough. Thats the whole problem with any Socialist type of programs the money is never enough. You think its bad now well if you nationalize healthcare it will be the same thing the more money you put into it the less you get out of it.

Look at your check right now if your a middle class worker makeing 60,000 a year your probably seeing 40-45 percent of your check gone every week after Fed,state,city,socialsecurity,medicare taxes,city waiver are being taken out.If we keep this up with our politicians spending money like it grows on trees were going to see 60-70percent of our checks gone every week in the future.There is no other way to fund these type of programs.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I am against the government providing parents with educational vouchers allowing them to send kids to schools of their choice.[/quote]

Do you think it’s fair for me to have to double pay so that I can send my child to a better school which better reflects my values?

I think it’s tyranny that they (government)confiscate my money each pay period and then tell me I’m shit out of luck when I want to use that money to educate my child the way I see fit. Tyranny. The system that we have now empowers the state, not the individual. Let me choose which school I send my child to without the state shackling me with the responsibility of supporting the shitty school which doesn’t reflect my values, while at the same time paying (again) to send my child to a better school.

[quote]Nyballer31 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:

Excellent post.

And the teachers union is dead set against the voucher system because they know what would happen to the decaying public school system if that happened.

Agreed. The voucher system is a bad educational policy.

Hey Junior you agree with me and then in the next sentence you state the opposite…I don’t think that’s what your Professor meant when he said you should be able to argue both sides of an issue…

Schools need money.

Let’s rephrase that SHCOOLS WASTE MONEY.

SOME schools waste money. Some schools have none to waste. There are shools where students SHARE textbooks 3 to a book. (By the way, such schools do not have art, music, and wood shop classes like you were complaining of above. Of that I assure you.) Throwing money blindly at poor schools will not solve the problems. But some schools simply don’t have the funds for students to prosper no matter how smart they were, and even early intevention and trying to foster a culture of education where parents read to kids and stress the importance of education would not fix that.

The Federal Government spends 600 billion dollars per year on our schools and thats not enough. Thats the whole problem with any Socialist type of programs the money is never enough. You think its bad now well if you nationalize healthcare it will be the same thing the more money you put into it the less you get out of it.

Look at your check right now if your a middle class worker makeing 50,000 a year your probably seeing 40-50 percent of your check gone every week after Fed,state,local,socialsecurity,medicare taxes are being taken out.If we keep this up with our politicians spending money like it grows on trees were going to see 60-70percent of our checks gone every week in the future.There is no other way to fund these type of programs.

[/quote]

I’m not saying that I want more federal money spent on education. But I don’t want less. I want it utilized better. There are currently a lot of problems with guidelines for use of federal funding and problems generally with the federal/state/city relationship in regard to education. Too many to list here. But one problem is that the government picks inappropriate and irrelevant measures of success in many cases. If schools don’t satisfy some arbitrary benchmarks, mandatory remedies are required under law. And the government doesn’t pay for most of these. In some cases, this has resulted in schools spending twice as much as it’s receiving in federal funds to fix problems that don’t exist in the first place.

Another problem is allocation of federal funding. Federal funding only accounts for about 9% of education funding, with state and local government putting up the rest. Rich school districts don’t really need federal funding at all. But they get it.

I went to a great high school. Property taxes were high. It had plenty of money going to it. It still got federal funding. But it didn’t really need it. It was a very small percentage of overall funding and made no difference in how the school operated.

This kind of stuff adds up. All across the country, thousands of very well-funded schools receive small amounts of federal funds they really don’t need. This adds up to millions that could instead be allocated to impoverished schools that really do need it and are very poorly funded by state and local government.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
I am against the government providing parents with educational vouchers allowing them to send kids to schools of their choice.

Do you think it’s fair for me to have to double pay so that I can send my child to a better school which better reflects my values?

I think it’s tyranny that they (government)confiscate my money each pay period and then tell me I’m shit out of luck when I want to use that money to educate my child the way I see fit. Tyranny. The system that we have now empowers the state, not the individual. Let me choose which school I send my child to without the state shackling me with the responsibility of supporting the shitty school which doesn’t reflect my values, while at the same time paying (again) to send my child to a better school.
[/quote]

You can choose what school you send your child to. Live in that school district. And if it’s a private or religious school, pay for it. I’m sure it’s exponentially more expensive than what you’re contrbuting towards your school district’s schools via your taxes.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
I am against the government providing parents with educational vouchers allowing them to send kids to schools of their choice.

Do you think it’s fair for me to have to double pay so that I can send my child to a better school which better reflects my values?

I think it’s tyranny that they (government)confiscate my money each pay period and then tell me I’m shit out of luck when I want to use that money to educate my child the way I see fit. Tyranny. The system that we have now empowers the state, not the individual. Let me choose which school I send my child to without the state shackling me with the responsibility of supporting the shitty school which doesn’t reflect my values, while at the same time paying (again) to send my child to a better school.
[/quote]

What do you support? A fully federalized education system where we all pay education taxes and the money is distributed to school districts across the nation by the federal government? If not, how is it fair that you could choose to live in a place with low property taxes and little funding for schools yet send your child to a school funded by high property (and other) taxes specifically enacted to support that district’s schools?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
…A fully federalized education system where we all pay education taxes and the money is distributed to school districts across the nation by the federal government? If not, how is it fair that you could choose to live in a place with low property taxes and little funding for schools yet send your child to a school funded by high property (and other) taxes specifically enacted to support that district’s schools?

Reference the section of the Constitution that even remotely alludes to any of the above.[/quote]

WHAT are you talking about? I fail to see how the Constitution has any relevance at all. Reference any constitutional prohibitions. Most laws and arrangements in this country are not MANDATED by the constituion. You’ve confused the issue too. With all this constiution talk, I can’t even tell what your beef is. Or what kind of education system you’re in favor of.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
…A fully federalized education system where we all pay education taxes and the money is distributed to school districts across the nation by the federal government? If not, how is it fair that you could choose to live in a place with low property taxes and little funding for schools yet send your child to a school funded by high property (and other) taxes specifically enacted to support that district’s schools?

Reference the section of the Constitution that even remotely alludes to any of the above.[/quote]

I will post again because my other post did not go through. I am totally AGAINST a federalized education system. That is the implication I drew from bigflamer’s post that he should be able to send his kid to any school irrespective of whether he lives in that school district or funds that school in any manner. I have no idea what your trying to do here by briging the Constitution into this. I can’t even tell what point you are trying to make or what education system you are against and for.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
…The problem is that (he) knows virtually nothing about the rest of the world. (He) clearly knows nothing about Afghanistan, or air strikes, or that this might be a problem in a counterinsurgency campaign.As others have noted, if a Democrat had been in the same position…

Glad to see you’re here to discuss one of Pastor Wright’s favorite parishioners.[/quote]

Way to dodge the subject.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
JS, forgive if I don’t get back to you just yet. I’m watching college football and I got to bed at 4 a.m. after taking the meesus dancing last night. She looked really hot last night, btw.[/quote]

Haha. Glad to hear it. No worries. I’m headed out to watch the second half of the Michigan game at Michigan bar with some buddies myself.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, not free of charge. You pay taxes to send your children to school. But you pay WAY less than you would if you had to send them to private school.

Wrong.

I send 2 kids to private school. Total cost is less than my personal contribution to the public school system via percentage of my property tax.

The teachers at the private school are paid 60% of what the Government school teachers (unionized) make, have 1/2 the benefits, and a quarter of the budget, yet the test scores out score every public school in the state (not a unique thing).

Where are my vouchers?

Incidentally, socialized states/nation do not necessarily preclude private ownership of land. Look at the rest of the world.

Sentoguy wrote:
France= socialized health care system
Canada= socialized health care system
Germany= socialized health care system
Great Britain= socialized health care system
Sweden= socialized health care system

and the list goes on.

USA = Best healthcare in the world

…end of list

Excellent post.

And the teachers union is dead set against the voucher system because they know what would happen to the decaying public school system if that happened.

Agreed. The voucher system is a bad educational policy. Schools need money. True. But the only thing that really has a chance at working is early intervention. [/quote]

Do you understand what a voucher is?

[quote]dhickey wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, not free of charge. You pay taxes to send your children to school. But you pay WAY less than you would if you had to send them to private school.

Wrong.

I send 2 kids to private school. Total cost is less than my personal contribution to the public school system via percentage of my property tax.

The teachers at the private school are paid 60% of what the Government school teachers (unionized) make, have 1/2 the benefits, and a quarter of the budget, yet the test scores out score every public school in the state (not a unique thing).

Where are my vouchers?

Incidentally, socialized states/nation do not necessarily preclude private ownership of land. Look at the rest of the world.

Sentoguy wrote:
France= socialized health care system
Canada= socialized health care system
Germany= socialized health care system
Great Britain= socialized health care system
Sweden= socialized health care system

and the list goes on.

USA = Best healthcare in the world

…end of list

Excellent post.

And the teachers union is dead set against the voucher system because they know what would happen to the decaying public school system if that happened.

Agreed. The voucher system is a bad educational policy. Schools need money. True. But the only thing that really has a chance at working is early intervention.

Do you understand what a voucher is?[/quote]

A voucher allows a parent to send their child to a school of their choice. Some voucher programs allow parents to send their kids to private, religious, or other public schools. Other voucher programs only allow parents to send their kids to a private or religious school and does not allow parents to send them to other public schools outside the district. Off to the bar.