The Muslim Holocaust

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
[So?

One cleric who acted against the expressed wishes of his own church.

I think we would find one or the other Iman who does the same.

[/quote]

I think we would most likely find him dead, either beheaded, shot or blown to pieces by other extreme muslims who do not share his views.

For instance: Grand Ayatollah Hakim. [/quote]

So you are saying one cleric who resists and is killed because of it is not really evidence that a whole faith did not go along surprisingly well with a political regime?

[/quote]

ah no, he is one of many.

Anyone who tries to speak out against the whole faith is killed. That is the nature of it, no?

222

[quote]orion wrote:
That cant be true.

Liberators bring their systems with them, especially to brown people, who, through cultural or general inferiority must be taught how to conduct their own affairs.

I am positively sure of that, because I watch the news.

[/quote]

That worked out well for Europe.

And it was the Europeans who did most of the colonization around the globe.

If you want to predate German extermination camps with British Boer camps, allow me to do the same with so-called liberators.

But I suppose that’s why you are pissed. When the French British, Spanish, Portugese had colonies, it was ok, but as soon as Germany started to crash the party, they were defeated.

Must piss you off that the US “liberated” parts of Germany, huh?

223

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
his point is simple. He want you( who are claiming that all conflicts with muslims in it, is caused by islam, becuase murder, chaos is the root of islam ) to be consistent. you cant choose to use a materalistic history perspective on europa/christianity and a idealistic one when wiewing muslims.
thats inconsistent. This is the point I think orion is trying to make( I can be wrong )

ps. I dont know if you have claimed a idealistic aproach to islamic/arab history btw.[/quote]

I understand his point, I do not agree.

Communists and Nazi’s wanted to destroy existing religion and substitute it with something else.

Muslims do not wish to do this. Bin Laden fancies himself a religious man. He wants to reform the Caliphate. He wants to spread Islam by the sword like his ancestors did.

Or do you deny this.[/quote]

I dunno, there seem to be people that want to spread “freedom and democracy” with the sword, or do you deny this?

Now, who is the greater danger to peace overall?

[/quote]

Perhaps freedom and democracy are more important than a “peace” maintained through oppression.[/quote]

Perhaps, but who are you to make that choice for other people?

Perhaps submitting to the will of Allah is more important than even freedom, in fact, that might be true freedom.

Perhaps those evil Muslims only want to liberate you, and yet you do not greet them with flowers.

[/quote]

Ah, but there were plenty of happy faces & flowers – at least at first – in Iraq, and now in Libya.

Besides, after people are free, THEY can decide for themselves what they want.

Freedom negates no option.

That can’t be said about anything else.

Freedom can’t be bad.[/quote]

Says you ,bu tlook where your freedom leads you!

Your women no longer know their rightful place, they order men around, young girls strut around and distract young men from their studies and their prayers.

You value houses and cars more than you God and your families!

You call this freedom?

I call this demonic possession and you should thank the brave young warriors who give their lifes to show you what power lies in true faith.
[/quote]

Then give up your car and your house. And convert to Islam if you want to. The reason you hate “freedom and democracy” so much is because what? You feel the wrong people lost the war? You think East Germany was better than West Germany? You wish the world was behind the Iron Curtain? Under the Taliban? If that’s your idea of nostalgia, I seriously feel sorry for you.[/quote]

That was a satirical post from orion. He was playing devil’s advocate, not seriously espousing things he actually believes.

224

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
That cant be true.

Liberators bring their systems with them, especially to brown people, who, through cultural or general inferiority must be taught how to conduct their own affairs.

I am positively sure of that, because I watch the news.

[/quote]

That worked out well for Europe.

And it was the Europeans who did most of the colonization around the globe.

If you want to predate German extermination camps with British Boer camps, allow me to do the same with so-called liberators.

But I suppose that’s why you are pissed. When the French British, Spanish, Portugese had colonies, it was ok, but as soon as Germany started to crash the party, they were defeated.

Must piss you off that the US “liberated” parts of Germany, huh?[/quote]

Yes, you caught me, I am thoroughly pissed that I am not extorted out of my money in order to finance the wholesale slaughter of people I have never met.

Keeps me up at night.

I was thinking about sending some money to the US treasury, but then again without the coercive element it just would not be the same for me.

225

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

That was a satirical post from orion. He was playing devil’s advocate, not seriously espousing things he actually believes.
[/quote]

I would hope not, but with him, you never know.

226

[quote]orion wrote:
I was thinking about sending some money to the US treasury, [/quote]

Please do. We need all the cash we can get.

227

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

I’m not sure how Nationalism fits into Christendom, but whatever.[/quote]

it doesn’t. It’s a strawman.[/quote]

Fuck, do you people read?

look through what I wrote if you want. I specifically state that, if you don’t accept the above argument, there are plenty of examples throughout history of both Christianity and Islam directly bloodying their hands.

My point all along was this: regardless of the intentions of their founders (I think the intentions of Jesus and the Apostles were noble/commendable), men have found ways to twist religions for evil throughout history.

This holds true for Christianity (Crusades, Inquisitions, Wars of Reformation, etc. etc.) as it does for Islam.

228

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Well, you’re really touching on why I reject religion period. Anything can be perverted to suit your interests.[/quote]

Hence, the reason for Jesus establishing the Church.[/quote]

I’m trying to figure out how to ask this without sounding accusatory, but I can’t, so please don’t take it that way. But do you honestly think the Catholic Church isn’t corrupt? Or hasn’t been?[/quote]

The human nature (the individuals), yes. We’re sinners. Like my Israeli friend says, “We’re not hypocrites because we’re Catholics, we’re Catholics because we’re hypocrites.” We are not perfect, never claimed to be.

Peter our Pope, denied Christ three times. Let me tell you about numerology here for a second. Three is very symbolic in the Bible, stands for completeness (Trinity, three days in Hell, Jesus tempted three times, &c.). Peter denied Jesus completely, Peter also told Jesus he loved him complete (Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him, and he answered affirmative thrice).

As Catholics we know three things (okay we no more than that, but trying to make a point and go along with the theme of three). Those three things are some of the most morbid things you’ll ever wrap your head around, how we remind ourselves is even more morbid (but that is a later topic). What we know…we know of our fallen nature (we’re sinners), we know without the Lord we couldn’t do anything (anything that’s not going to be dashed in the pit of fire at least), and we know one day we’ll die (Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori).

As Catholics, we should not, or at least should not, have any illusions otherwise.

However! Always a however. :wink:

The Church has two natures (think of Jesus, two natures: human and divine). Jesus’ body, or Church, is made up as any other body. The reason for the divine nature is because Jesus is G-d and Jesus promised the Holy Ghost to the Church to guide us to the end of time.

Just as Jesus’ body was crucified, torn apart, beaten, corrupted by the nails, the lance, the leather of the whip and everything deemed profane, but his divine nature stayed pure, he never sinned. It was never corrupted.

That is why Catholics believe the Church can be perfect (morals, teachings, &c.), with sinners in it. Not because we’re some uber-uptight people who never do a bad thing or because our Bishops are sooooo good at teaching the same thing from the beginning of the Church on Calvary to the current date, but because Jesus is G-d and Jesus said he’d protect the Church from Hell and the Holy Ghost would be our guide, and we believe that the Holy Ghost cannot be deceived or deceive us.

As well, what congregation in Christendom has a sacrament of reconciliation? If we have a Sacrament (with a capital S) for the sole purpose of forgiving sins, you think we don’t recognize that we’re not corrupt? We know, trust us. We’ve been trying to tell the world of the human’s fallen nature, but no one believes us. What shall we do? Keep the preaching I guess.[/quote]

Wow, I was not expecting that great of a response, thank you BC. Well I can’t say I agree with you, thanks nonetheless. [/quote]

No worry, I don’t do this to win debates. However, I have a medieval streak in me, I’m all for corporal punishment. Those who have committed serious crimes should be punished severely. I also have an aversion to public scandal, repentance should occur but I would never create scandal about the Church.

229

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[The Catholic Church is a cesspool of corruption dating back to the beginning to the present. [/quote]

What about the Orthodox Church? Do you believe they are corrupt as well? Everyone seems to ignore the “other” church from the east.[/quote]

Yeah, there is nothing like the Catholic Church in the world. And, like it’s said we’re a city on a hill, light to the world. Everyone sees us. The Eastern Church and all other congregations (protestants) are such a small and unconnected bunch that there is hardly a way to connect one congregation to another. So, when the pastor of so-and-so congregation is found with kiddie porn, it’s just so-and-so congregation and doesn’t even hit headlines on the local 6 o’clock news. The media gets wind of a Catholic priest suspected of something…first page, headlines across the world. As well, the incentive of money is there as well like Jeffrey Anderson and Jeff Herman who have let comments slip from the lips that makes it obvious they are not in it for the justice but the money.

230

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/Swastika-vs-Cross.pdf

Brother Chris, Orion, read this.[/quote]

So?

One cleric who acted against the expressed wishes of his own church.

I think we would find one or the other Iman who does the same.

[/quote]

Wishes of his own Church? You mean the Pope that saved thousands of Jews…also was a Nazi sympathizer…

And Nazi’s like teh gay butt sex. If we’re going to just say claims that have no basis, I’m down. As much as people hate Catholics, they hate Nazis more. They hate Catholics because we speak on morals and no one likes there dirt talked about. They hate Nazis because they are evil.

231

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/Swastika-vs-Cross.pdf

Brother Chris, Orion, read this.[/quote]

Good article.

232

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
[So?

One cleric who acted against the expressed wishes of his own church.

I think we would find one or the other Iman who does the same.

[/quote]

I think we would most likely find him dead, either beheaded, shot or blown to pieces by other extreme muslims who do not share his views.

For instance: Grand Ayatollah Hakim. [/quote]

So you are saying one cleric who resists and is killed because of it is not really evidence that a whole faith did not go along surprisingly well with a political regime?

[/quote]

What about Father Maximilian Kolbe? And, the 50,000 Catholic priests and religious who also opposed the Nazi Party and were killed. So…one against the Church, right. And what about the Nazi Parties attempt to try to systematically undermine the Church’s influence and teachings through propaganda? You don’t usually do that because someone is cheering you on.

233

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Well, you’re really touching on why I reject religion period. Anything can be perverted to suit your interests.[/quote]

Hence, the reason for Jesus establishing the Church.[/quote]

I’m trying to figure out how to ask this without sounding accusatory, but I can’t, so please don’t take it that way. But do you honestly think the Catholic Church isn’t corrupt? Or hasn’t been?[/quote]

The human nature (the individuals), yes. We’re sinners. Like my Israeli friend says, “We’re not hypocrites because we’re Catholics, we’re Catholics because we’re hypocrites.” We are not perfect, never claimed to be.

Peter our Pope, denied Christ three times. Let me tell you about numerology here for a second. Three is very symbolic in the Bible, stands for completeness (Trinity, three days in Hell, Jesus tempted three times, &c.). Peter denied Jesus completely, Peter also told Jesus he loved him complete (Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him, and he answered affirmative thrice).

As Catholics we know three things (okay we no more than that, but trying to make a point and go along with the theme of three). Those three things are some of the most morbid things you’ll ever wrap your head around, how we remind ourselves is even more morbid (but that is a later topic). What we know…we know of our fallen nature (we’re sinners), we know without the Lord we couldn’t do anything (anything that’s not going to be dashed in the pit of fire at least), and we know one day we’ll die (Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori).

As Catholics, we should not, or at least should not, have any illusions otherwise.

However! Always a however. :wink:

The Church has two natures (think of Jesus, two natures: human and divine). Jesus’ body, or Church, is made up as any other body. The reason for the divine nature is because Jesus is G-d and Jesus promised the Holy Ghost to the Church to guide us to the end of time.

Just as Jesus’ body was crucified, torn apart, beaten, corrupted by the nails, the lance, the leather of the whip and everything deemed profane, but his divine nature stayed pure, he never sinned. It was never corrupted.

That is why Catholics believe the Church can be perfect (morals, teachings, &c.), with sinners in it. Not because we’re some uber-uptight people who never do a bad thing or because our Bishops are sooooo good at teaching the same thing from the beginning of the Church on Calvary to the current date, but because Jesus is G-d and Jesus said he’d protect the Church from Hell and the Holy Ghost would be our guide, and we believe that the Holy Ghost cannot be deceived or deceive us.

As well, what congregation in Christendom has a sacrament of reconciliation? If we have a Sacrament (with a capital S) for the sole purpose of forgiving sins, you think we don’t recognize that we’re not corrupt? We know, trust us. We’ve been trying to tell the world of the human’s fallen nature, but no one believes us. What shall we do? Keep the preaching I guess.[/quote]

Wow, I was not expecting that great of a response, thank you BC. Well I can’t say I agree with you, thanks nonetheless. [/quote]

No worry, I don’t do this to win debates. However, I have a medieval streak in me, I’m all for corporal punishment. Those who have committed serious crimes should be punished severely. I also have an aversion to public scandal, repentance should occur but I would never create scandal about the Church.[/quote]

LOL @ the pagan / occult use of 3. Coincidence that your religion adopted it? Or was it original? Hmm?

234

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[The Catholic Church is a cesspool of corruption dating back to the beginning to the present. [/quote]

What about the Orthodox Church? Do you believe they are corrupt as well? Everyone seems to ignore the “other” church from the east.[/quote]

Yeah, there is nothing like the Catholic Church in the world. And, like it’s said we’re a city on a hill, light to the world. Everyone sees us. The Eastern Church and all other congregations (protestants) are such a small and unconnected bunch that there is hardly a way to connect one congregation to another. So, when the pastor of so-and-so congregation is found with kiddie porn, it’s just so-and-so congregation and doesn’t even hit headlines on the local 6 o’clock news. The media gets wind of a Catholic priest suspected of something…first page, headlines across the world. As well, the incentive of money is there as well like Jeffrey Anderson and Jeff Herman who have let comments slip from the lips that makes it obvious they are not in it for the justice but the money.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is connected all right - by a string of abused boys all over the world. Nice “connection”.

235

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Ha ha ha!

You’re one funny guy, I’ll give you that.

Oh wait! Appeal to authority. Begging the question. Ad hominim. Appeal to force, I tell you!!! All fellatious arguments!

Thanks for the chuckle, BG.

Really.

[/quote]

And by the way, you’ve proven you cannot express an opinion without leaning on a fallacious argument. Don’t quit your day job, whatever that may be :slight_smile: Argument is not your forte. But you do make the coolest fart noises I’ve heard yet! That’s cool.
[/quote]

And I bet he doesn’t even lift weights.

Sorry, I could not help myself.

236

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

I’m not sure how Nationalism fits into Christendom, but whatever.[/quote]

it doesn’t. It’s a strawman.[/quote]

Fuck, do you people read?

look through what I wrote if you want. I specifically state that, if you don’t accept the above argument, there are plenty of examples throughout history of both Christianity and Islam directly bloodying their hands.

My point all along was this: regardless of the intentions of their founders (I think the intentions of Jesus and the Apostles were noble/commendable), men have found ways to twist religions for evil throughout history.

This holds true for Christianity (Crusades, Inquisitions, Wars of Reformation, etc. etc.) as it does for Islam.[/quote]

Wow! The Crusades and Inquisitions was started for noble and good reason and some were never for evil reasons. If you want to throw shit then we can take it to another thread to discuss this, but just to presume that the Crusades and the Inquisitions were bad because some pseudo-historian shows that people were killed, that doesn’t make it bad.

237

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/Swastika-vs-Cross.pdf

Brother Chris, Orion, read this.[/quote]

So?

One cleric who acted against the expressed wishes of his own church.

I think we would find one or the other Iman who does the same.

[/quote]

Wishes of his own Church? You mean the Pope that saved thousands of Jews…also was a Nazi sympathizer…

And Nazi’s like teh gay butt sex. If we’re going to just say claims that have no basis, I’m down. As much as people hate Catholics, they hate Nazis more. They hate Catholics because we speak on morals and no one likes there dirt talked about. They hate Nazis because they are evil.[/quote]

He saved thousand of Jews.

How kind of him.

And yet he remained quiet when millions where killed.

And he, unlike many others, knew.

Did he clothe in a robe and sandals and turned up at a trainstation demanding to share the fate of the Jews that were deported from Italy?

He most certainly did not.

Did he make public what he knew, not regarding his own safety?

Nope, not really.

Did he excommunicate any priest, bishop or military chaplain who took part in these atrocities?

Oh no, he was full of understanding.

Did he prevent his own church from smuggling nazis to latin america?

No, of course not.

Quite the sheperd, and entirely christ like.

He not only failed as a pope, not even only as a christian, he failed as a human being.

But, and lets try to focus on the positive side of things, the concorde struck with Hitler still stands, providing quite a stream of income.

238

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

I’m not sure how Nationalism fits into Christendom, but whatever.[/quote]

it doesn’t. It’s a strawman.[/quote]

Fuck, do you people read?

look through what I wrote if you want. I specifically state that, if you don’t accept the above argument, there are plenty of examples throughout history of both Christianity and Islam directly bloodying their hands.

My point all along was this: regardless of the intentions of their founders (I think the intentions of Jesus and the Apostles were noble/commendable), men have found ways to twist religions for evil throughout history.

This holds true for Christianity (Crusades, Inquisitions, Wars of Reformation, etc. etc.) as it does for Islam.[/quote]

Wow! The Crusades and Inquisitions was started for noble and good reason and some were never for evil reasons. If you want to throw shit then we can take it to another thread to discuss this, but just to presume that the Crusades and the Inquisitions were bad because some pseudo-historian shows that people were killed, that doesn’t make it bad.[/quote]

I said bloodshed. Whether you think they began for good reasons is irrelevant. Blood was shed, and that has been my one and only claim all along. And it is not deniable.

Pseudo-historians? Read any reputable history of Medieval Europe and you will be presented with myriad examples of violent religious conflict. I’m not trying to make any larger claims (some idiot thought I was saying ‘all Christians are evil’). I’m simply talking about religion being used by men for evil.

240

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
his point is simple. He want you( who are claiming that all conflicts with muslims in it, is caused by islam, becuase murder, chaos is the root of islam ) to be consistent. you cant choose to use a materalistic history perspective on europa/christianity and a idealistic one when wiewing muslims.
thats inconsistent. This is the point I think orion is trying to make( I can be wrong )

ps. I dont know if you have claimed a idealistic aproach to islamic/arab history btw.[/quote]

I understand his point, I do not agree.

Communists and Nazi’s wanted to destroy existing religion and substitute it with something else.

Muslims do not wish to do this. Bin Laden fancies himself a religious man. He wants to reform the Caliphate. He wants to spread Islam by the sword like his ancestors did.

Or do you deny this.[/quote]

I dunno, there seem to be people that want to spread “freedom and democracy” with the sword, or do you deny this?

Now, who is the greater danger to peace overall?

[/quote]

Perhaps freedom and democracy are more important than a “peace” maintained through oppression.[/quote]

Perhaps, but who are you to make that choice for other people?

Perhaps submitting to the will of Allah is more important than even freedom, in fact, that might be true freedom.

Perhaps those evil Muslims only want to liberate you, and yet you do not greet them with flowers.

[/quote]

Ah, but there were plenty of happy faces & flowers – at least at first – in Iraq, and now in Libya.

Besides, after people are free, THEY can decide for themselves what they want.

Freedom negates no option.

That can’t be said about anything else.

Freedom can’t be bad.[/quote]

Says you ,bu tlook where your freedom leads you!

Your women no longer know their rightful place, they order men around, young girls strut around and distract young men from their studies and their prayers.

You value houses and cars more than you God and your families!

You call this freedom?

I call this demonic possession and you should thank the brave young warriors who give their lifes to show you what power lies in true faith.
[/quote]

No, your “freedom” tells what me is “right.”

Mine tells you to decide that for yourself.

Mine does not preclude yours.

Yours prohibits mine.

Is that what you want for yourself?

Fine with me. Help yourself.

You can’t say the same to me, though.

I have every right to be possessed, if I so chose.

Just as you are possessed by your “God.”[/quote]

Funny, because right now people are killing other people to spread “freedom” in your name, which makes choosing rather difficult.

If you make more than 80k a year they even do it with your money.