The Mike Mentzer Evolution?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Ellington Darden HIT Coaching
388

I know this post is a bit dated.

However, I started Mike’s style of HIT recently because of the new year rush.

I’m currently on a 3-day split with (2) rest day between workouts.

  • A: Chest/Back
  • Rest: 2 days
  • B: Legs/ Abs
  • Rest: 2 days
  • C: Shoulders/ Arms
  • Rest 2 Days
  • Note: Begin Cycle, Again

I’m keeping track of my progress via Google sheets. In 2 months, I plan on doing a statistical analysis on the collected data, and maybe some explanatory data.

    • As a newbie to Mentzer’s method, what are some important things to prioritize when reaching failure?
    • What do you consider taking a set to failure?
    • When would it be appropriate to increase the weight?

Any guidance or short stories would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for sharing your background with HIT.

389

I’m just going to bullet some ideas and then ask you for some more details:

  • Reps 6-10 on Chest & Back. 8-12 on everything else.
  • When you get to the top of the rep range, increase the weight about 10%
  • Failure is when you barely complete the rep in good form.
  • If you’ve been pushing (or pulling) for 5 secs, STOP and lower the weight. You’ll do more harm than good by continuing to strain.
  • Try and keep the same number of exercises throughout. Do NOT follow MM’s recommendations about dropping iso exercises as you go on.
  • If you are just not ‘feeling’ a certain exercise, then change it out for something you prefer.
  • 2 months may not be enough time for a thorough analysis. 5-6 weeks HIT it hard, then lay back a week with 50% of your working weights for 8-10 reps. 2 cycles will be 12-14 weeks; 3 will be 18-21.
  • Are you new to HIT, or just new to MM? If you are new to both, you can train more frequently: Start Delts/Arms - Rest 1 day - Legs - Rest 1 day - Chest/Back - Rest 2 days - Repeat.
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390

Do you have your exercises planned?
Will you be using pre-fatigue supersets? Some people don’t like them, but they’ve been vindicated in recent studies. Current thinking is that you do NOT have to rush to the 2nd exercise. 25-40 secs rest will both 1) maintain the the pre-fatigue effect, while 2) allow you to give a better all-out effort (at the least, you can catch your breath a bit).
Instead of timing, I use moderately deep breaths…in thru the nose, out thru the mouth. Mine are about 3 secs each, so 8-12 breaths gives a useful amount of rest.

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391

MIke Mentzer made it popular with the one-two set routine, resting one or two weeks, only four exercises, static-holds and so fourth, but I think it was all wrong.

Mike Mentzer never training HIT himself, more like Arnold did, except Arnold did more sets as he worked out five hours a day and resting on sundays. I think 1-2 sets to failure, isn`t gonna give any results, as I myself tried it for 2-3 years without results. I think always going to failure, is another bad things, it only strains the nervous-system and not the muscles.

You don`t need to rest a week or two ether, as a muscle can be trained everyday. My best gains was from working out the same muscles everyday actually. The only positive thing with HIT is the reps, I think, like 8-15 for upper body, I tend to lean towards more reps myself as it builds more endurance and makes the blood circulate to build muscles, I tend to do more reps on legs also as it hurts more; you have to be a little uncomfortable to build muscles.

You can build muscles doing the same everyday mostly, but theres no problem with varying the exercises, as its more fun, youll avoid being stiff more also when you vary the exercises. Another problem with HIT is static-holds and eccentrics, it doesnt really build strength, only positive lifting does. Yes, I tried doing statics and eccentrics alot, but when you go back to lifting again, you have no strengt. It only works on paper.

I think Mike Mentzer was going a little mad in the end, he argued with Arnold alot also, even though he never practised what he taught. In my opinion, avoid HIT at all costs, it simply doesnt work. You have this slow rep-cadence also, 4 second down, 2 seconds hold and 4 seconds lift, but again, you build no explosive strenght, you dont use your muscle-fibers explosively, hence you don`t use all of them

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392
  1. MM never advocated such a cadence.
  2. NO bodybuilding routine builds explosive strength. You want that, then get into powerlifting or Olympic lifting. But the ironic thing there is: In those two sports, strength is only part of it…there’s a LOT of technique and momentum involved. At least with slow reps, you know it’s 100% you and your strength.

There’s so much wrong there, it’s hard to know where to start. HIT is NOT a lot about static holds. And relatively (not excessively) slow eccentrics are key for hypertrophy. Plus, keying your opinions only on ‘strength’ omits the fact that many of us are looking for hypertrophy too — some maybe moreso than strength, some less.

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393

He is another poster who just joined and who has no idea what he is talking about

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394

I’m going through High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way by Mentzer and John R. Little.

Here the quick rundown of the exercise set up.

  • Workout A
  1. Dumbbell Flies: 1*[6-10] reps
  2. Incline Press: 1*[1-3] Reps
  3. Straight-arm pull downs:1*[6-10] reps
  4. Palms-up pull downs :1*[6-10] reps
  5. Deadlifts:1*[6-10] reps
  • Workout B
  1. Leg extensions : 1* [12–20]
  2. Leg presses : 1* [12–20]
  3. Standing calf raises : 1* [12–20]
  4. Sit-ups : 1* [12–20]
  • Workout C
  1. Dumbbell lateral raises: 1*[6-10] reps
  2. Bent-over dumbbell laterals: 1*[6-10] reps
  3. Palms-up pull downs: 1*[6-10] reps
  4. Triceps press downs: 1*[6-10] reps
  5. Dips: 1*[3-5] reps

Note: Bold=Pre Exhaust
Rest Days : 4 to 7 Days

I’m currently resting 2 days between workouts, but I’m planning on jumping to 3 days rest periods.

As for my understanding of Mentzer’s methods, I barely discovered his work earlier this year.

As for my off days, I do active recovery: gymnastic exercise(rings, parallels, banded exercises), yoga, and the rowing machine.

395

You should add in a Hamstring Curl and bicep curl in my opinion. Your upper hamstrings are currently getting no direct stimulation and a set of curls will really help ensure you’re getting adequate bicep stimulation. We’re talking single sets here, so these adjustments really SHOULDN’T set back your recovery to any degree.

Also, this is personal preference, but I prefer flys AFTER incline press, and I’d probably go a little higher rep on the incline. Also, I think that workout would work great with antagonistic supersets, so Chest then back. Also I would probably recommend either a pull up or neutral grip or one arm pulldown on that first session since you already hit palms up pulldown on day 3.

I ran the exact program back you posted in 2017 and 2020 and the changes I just mentioned would make the routine even better in my opinion.

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396

If I were to do that routine:[EXPANDED]

  • Workout A
  1. Dumbbell Flyes: 1*[6-10] reps
  2. Incline Press: 1*[1-3] Reps
  3. Straight-arm PDs or PO/PD Combo:1*[6-10] reps
  4. FG or PG Pulldowns :1*[6-10] reps
  5. Cable or Chest-Supported Rows[6-10] reps
    Rest 1 day (at first)
  • Workout B
  1. Leg extensions or Wall Sissies: 1* [12–20]
  2. Leg presses or Mach Hack Squats: 1* [12–20]
  3. Leg Curls / Stiff-Leg or Romanian DL (alt) [6-10]
  4. Standing calf raises : 1* [12–20]
  5. Sit-ups : 1* [12–20]
    Rest 2 days
  • Workout C
  1. DB lateral raises: 1*[6-10] reps, Ovh Press, every 3rd wk
  2. DB Rear Raises or Face Pulls: 1*[6-10] reps
    3. BB or DB Curls: 1*[6-10] reps
  3. Triceps Pushdowns or Overhead Extensions: 1*[6-10] reps
  4. Dips: 1*[3-5] reps (every 2nd or 3rd workout do CG Bench)
    Rest 1 day and Repeat*

Don’t start adding rest days, until your working weights on most exercises have gone up at least 30-50%! You WILL paint yourself in a corner, if you start using that crutch too early. Get more sleep and/or eat a little more, if you find yourself plateauing early. OR Take a deload week every 5th or 6th week → Do ~10 reps/exercise with 1/2 your working weight

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397

Can you explain why Mentzer prescribed 1 to 3 reps on the incline press

i tried finding an explanation and could not

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398

Everyone who does the HIT style Fly/Bench Press combo says it’s bad because you have to lighten the weight So Much on the bench press. Over time you get unaccustomed to heavy weights and get weak on the bench press

Mentzer overcame this by going low rep / heavy weight the bench press. Stay strong by keeping the big benches in there.

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399

Rushing between pre-fatigue SS exercises, is NOT where’s it at imo. Rest at least 25-40 secs between. Your pecs will still be fatigued if you did those Flyes correctly!

You do bring up a good point on the “big bench” aspect. I’d alternate either each week, or every 3 weeks, with a workout where you start with your best 5-8 rep set of Bench or Inclines and then follow with an 8-12-rep set of Flyes.

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400

Here my current exercise:
Warm UP:

  • Flies ( On Knees) on Ring
  • Reverse Flies on Rings
  • Face Pull on Rings
  • Back Row on Rings
  1. Chest Incline Dips:1*5:: Aiming for a nice stretch (Body Weight)
  2. Dumbbell Incline Press: 1*[1-8] Reps
  3. Straight-arm pull downs:1*[6-10] reps (Side Note: This move is very similar to “front lever”)
  4. Palms-up pull downs :1*[6-10] reps
  5. Dumbbell RDL:1*[6-10] reps
  • Workout B
    Warm UP:
  • Boat Pose
  • Plank on Rings (Think Ab wheel built with Rings)
  • Banded Anti Rotation Drills
  • Straight Leg Raise (to work the Hip flexor to help wit the V seat)
  1. Leg extensions : 1* [12–20]
  2. Goblet Squat: 1* [12–20] :: Warm Up Set
  3. Leg Curl: 1*12-15 ( Slow, 1.5 rep)
  4. Seated One Leg Calf Raise: 1-12-20 (Held negatives and held negatives)
  5. Standing calf raises : 1* [12–20]
  6. Weighted Ab Crunch : 1* [12–20]
  7. Weighted Reverse Crunch : 1* [12–20]
  • Workout C
    Warm UP:
  • French Press On Rings
  • Bicep Curls On Rings
  • Face Pull On Rings
  • Y Press On Floor (get that rhomboid)
  • Light Straight Arm Work (5lb to15 Straight Arm Raise in hollow body hold)
  1. Dumbbell lateral raises: 1*[6-10] reps :: 1 Warm Up Set Required
  2. Arnold Press: 1*[6-10] reps :: 1 Warm Up Set Required
  3. Straight Bar Curl: 1*[6-10] reps (Arm Upset)
  4. Skull Crushers: 1*[6-10] reps
  5. Dips: 1*[3-5] reps
401

In Mentzer bicep exercise, he did prescribe a standing bicep curl with only a straight bar. The guy did not like the ez bar.

Mentzer on the bicep curl:

“What’s some more of the conventional wisdom? EZ curl bars for building biceps. It’s the worst thing in the world you can do for building biceps.”*

You can prove it to yourself. Put your hand in the gooseneck position, pull your arm back, put your other finger on your bicep. You’ll feel it’s not even tense; it’s soft. Now supinate the hand and see what happens.

I used the straight bar for standing curl for the first time, and I’m not going back to the ez bar. Mike was right on that one.

P.S
An archive link to the book

402

I agree, and I’ve we’ve seen non HIT guys rotate “strength work” into hypertrophy routines the same way. Like a heavy strength focus every other workout, or every 3rd workout.

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403

why did you mention this, i don’t recall mentzer being an advocate of SS, especially in pre-exhaust

404

I have the book on physical and digital. I was just noting some changes I would make to this fellow’s program based on my experiences as a trainer and personal experiences. When I did it, I did do straight barbell curls and I still do, although I believe he’s incorrect about the EZ Curl bar. It definitely does still train the biceps, and your hands are still supinated, even if not to the same degree as a straight bar.

The routine in that book is a slightly worse version of his Heavy Duty II routine.

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405

Do you a have a physical copy of Heavy Duty 2?
I was trying to find a copy, but the best I could find was about $400.00 on eBay and Amazon via private seller.

406

I used to but I sold it to a friend of mine for $70. I bought it for $190 on eBay bundled with “New Bodybuilding for Old School Results” and both discs of Mike Mentzer’s Underground seminar dvd, which seems like a great deal compared to the prices I’ve seen since!

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407

My abbreviation for ‘supersets’, NEVER for ‘superslow’!

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