The Left vs. the Left

And this is why I have such a hard time holding a civil conversation with you. YOU–who doesn’t understand how evidence works, doesn’t know or care to learn how to read and weigh evidence, doesn’t publish studies, doesn’t do experiments, moves the goalposts repeatedly and then claims they didn’t, and espouses conspiracy theories–are trying to tell ME, a guy who does all of the above for a fucking living, what the FDA actually does.

Newsflash–among my many duties, I design FDA regulation-adhering validated assays for drug testing and pharmacology. Oh and I work in a university rather than as part of “Big Pharma” so I’m not getting paid by your imaginary Bilderberg reptilian overlords either. So I don’t give a flying fuck what you think makes me wrong. It so happens that both I and ActivitiesGuy deal with the FDA in some form quite regularly, making us both infinitely more fucking qualified to know what they’re doing, if they are fucking up, where they are fucking up, and what to do about it. In fact I’ve said in this very thread and elsewhere that I have issues with the FDA and that there is a lot of shit that they do that I don’t like, including moving too slow at times. The problem is all of those things are lightyears away from what you’re accusing them of. Which is fucking stupid, by the way.

Newsflash number 2–all chemicals can lead to death. Herbal doesn’t mean safe, “Natural” doesn’t mean life enhancing OR safe, and you can die from ODing on fucking water. Or aspirin. Or a million other things.

In this thread you have repeatedly claimed that the USA does not lead research in stem cells, does not lead in clinical trials in stem cells, that stem cells do not have any side effects AT ALL, and that the FDA is deliberately holding the research back in some sort of conspiracy. You have been proven absolutely wrong. You then move the goalposts and assert that you never claimed any of the things that you were disproven on and reiterate your claim that the FDA is deliberately killing the market. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A CONSPIRACY THEORY.

3 Likes

‘We are the walking debt’: Cal State students protest tuition hike proposal.

So Dems suggests that those evil Republicans stand in their way of “progress”, so the young and foolish voted for one party rule. But campaigning on “dat free shit” is running out of options on how to pay for “dat free shit” mang.

2 Likes

3 months later and the same nonsense. If the “big” government is by and for corporations then why are insurance companies losing money on Obamacare? Scroll back up for links. Premiums are also up.

If “big” government is for the corporations why do they fine plain ol corporations all the time? Here is a list of just a few:
https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-fc.shtml

Here’s the archive:
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/litrelarchive/litarchive2015.shtml

It’s really not worth the time to re-answer the same questions, again.

So is it a conspiracy theory that the FDA is in the back pocket of Big Pharma and will do what they can to help them maximize profits at any cost? Maybe the U.S. does lead in clinical trials and studies. And this begs the question why is there no application? Especially when other countries offer this treatment already. A fair enough question. And if you think it is because of potential side effects and safety reasons you are totally gullible. Why are a shitload of medications released when a deluge of side effects are known? Some worse than the disease itself.

If you know what to do about FDA problems, why aren’t you whistleblowing?

Furthermore, there are plenty of studies released on the safety and effectiveness of stem cells. Far more safe than the garbage drugs released by Big Pharma where people get very sick or even in some cases die from taking them.

And just because you deal with the FDA does not make your knowledge of them monolithic and not cloud your vision of common sense.

“dat free shit” How are we paying for the wars in the mid east that are costing trillions?

There is no “maybe”. The source that you provided shows that the United States leads in clinical trials and studies.

Application:

http://www.cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/diagnosis-and-treatment/stem-cell-transplant/side-effects-of-stem-cell-transplant/graft-versus-host-disease-gvhd/?region=on

1 Like


http://www.explorestemcells.co.uk/rare-side-effects-stem-cell-therapy.html

2 Likes

Citations, please. Last time I asked for a citation of a study on safety and effectiveness of stem cells, you linked a basic-science study, which does not prove anything about safety or effectiveness. I’d like to see a human clinical-outcomes study that backs up the claims you are making.

I’m not saying they don’t exist, but I am saying that thus far you have not shown us any.

Let’s talk about this a little more.

Every treatment has side effects. These are biologically active compounds, after all. The purpose of research is to quantify just how big that “deluge” of side effects can be, and make a value judgement on whether the risk profile of the treatment is worse than the disease that the drug is designed to treat, and if the drug’s impact on the disease is favorable enough to justify the risk.

I happen to agree that in selected areas we probably over-treat and end up doing more harm than good; the research process is a constant tug-of-war between getting effective therapies to market while screening out ineffective and/or harmful therapies. Every study is a complex balance of a number of factors - the number of patients feasible to recruit and enroll, the prevalence of the outcome(s) of interest, and sometimes a study can be “wrong” by random chance. Therefore, sometimes a drug will be green-lighted and, in light of post-market research, later be pulled because it either wasn’t as effective as the original research appeared or the side effects were more severe than initially anticipated. The “research” capacity isn’t infinite - at some point we have to look at the existing data and “approve” the drug - we can study a drug through a rigorous process of phase 0 (pharmacokinetics), 1 (dose-escalating), 2 (safety), 3 (safety/efficacy), and 4 (post-marketing). If a drug makes it through phases 0-3, it can be approved while acknowledging that it will still be monitored via post-market research to remain vigilant for potential safety issues.

As a statistician, one of my primary jobs is helping to design these studies. Since we cannot recruit an “infinite” number of patients, we have to make a judgement on the anticipated benefit to the patient, the anticipated rate of events or outcomes, and many other factors to guesstimate how many patients we’ll recruit for each phase.

Here’s an example. I’m proposing a new drug that’s a one-time injection before undergoing cardiac surgery. I believe that my magic drug will work through the Blood Gnomes Pathway and reduce the risk of bleeding.

We will start with a Phase 0 study (usually 10 or fewer patients, sometimes as few as 3) which confirms that the agent is biologically active (i.e. that the Blood Gnomes Pathway actually changes in a human when you inject my new drug).

Next, we will do a Phase 1 study (usually in the range of 15-20 patients, although sometimes as many as 30) for dose-escalation to expose patients to gradually larger doses of the drug and find the MTD, or maximally tolerated dose. At this stage we still aren’t really assessing effectiveness for the desired clinical purpose, only safety and determining what dose range(s) are appropriate to test in a larger population.

Next, we will do a Phase 2 study (50 - 200 ish patients, depending on the specifics) which gives a slightly longer-term look at the safety and effectiveness. This is the first time clinical-outcomes data are considered, although we don’t usually have a large enough sample-size at this stage to make an accurate assessment of the risk reduction from the new therapy. But we usually get enough from this stage to know “this drug has no chance” or “this drug looks promising, let’s proceed.”

Next, we will do a Phase 3 study (or in some cases several concurrent Phase 3 studies, in different patient populations and different conditions) with hundreds or thousands of patients to get a longer-term picture of safety and efficacy. Here’s where the drug is really on the line, and the company will have to spend millions and millions of dollars at this stage because that’s where we collect sufficient data to get an accurate picture of whether the drug is effective at impacting clinical outcomes instead of just jiggering around with the cells in our blood.

Here’s the catch: at each level, there is a small risk of a “false positive” - passing on a drug that does not actually work, but by random chance happened to produce results that made it LOOK like it worked. This risk is controlled by our sample-size calculations to be very small at each step, but it cannot be reduced to zero unless we use extremely large studies that are untenable for several reasons (ethics of assigning that many patients to a relatively un-studied compound, sheer volume of recruitment, etc). We design the study to strike a balance between the risk of “false positive” (passing on a drug that does not work) and “false negative” (killing a drug that DOES actually work) while also minimizing the number of patients that will be exposed to the therapy (since it is not yet known to be effective or safe).

So, what all of this adds up to is that the FDA requires a very rigorous process, but it cannot be made 100% bulletproof. A small percentage of the time, bad drugs that don’t work or cause harm will get through. Most of the time, drugs that do actually work will eventually get approved, and while this process takes a long time, the “research rigor” required is not the problem. Paperwork and bureaucracy is the problem, but even that’s explainable: the paperwork is required because, without it, people will engage in all sorts of fuckery with their data, so extensive documentation of everything is a necessity to minimize misconduct.

This has reached mind-numbingly stupid levels.

2 Likes

Can’t wait for this response

You ain’t seen nothin yet.

3 Likes

Yeah man… This is just the beginning.

3 Likes

You’re right, but the wars were voted on by both parties. The article I posted is strictly due to state Democrats.

1 Like

Outstanding reply @ActivitiesGuy. And you @anon50325502. Too bad I can only like them once.

There are ALWAYS safety problems and side effects. Anything that is biologically active has side effects, from foods, spices, plants (cough Hemlock cough) to drugs. Period, end of story.

2 Likes

@ActivitiesGuy Awesome post.

Question from a non-research medical person. You mentioned ethics of using a drug that has not been approved yet on people. How are those people selected? Are they willing to try an experimental drug because they are already on their death bed? And for non-life saving (cancer or related) drugs how do you ethically get patients to test on?

Good questions. There’s no one-size-fits-all-answer because it depends on the specifics of the agent and the stage of the study.

Hopefully it is obvious (although perhaps not) that no one is enrolled into a trial of an experimental therapy without some type of “informed consent” - it’s not as though we “select” people from the hospital population and just start doing trials on them willy-nilly. Anyone that is enrolled into a trial has to receive a description of the potential risks and benefits, a description of what their therapeutic options are if they don’t enroll in the trial, and a description

Sometimes, in early-stage studies only (phase 0 and phase 1), it can be healthy volunteers who are willing to get injected with a drug and get some blood drawn for a little cash. This is because at that stage we are not assessing whether the drug “works” in terms of reversing or preventing disease, only that it can be given to humans without obvious acute signs of toxicity, and getting an approximation for what the highest dose that can be given without high levels of acute toxicity. Remember, phase 0 and phase 1 studies are too short to determine what the side effects of chronic exposure might be; that comes later, in phase 2 and 3.

For later-stage studies, we are typically going to be looking at the class of people who have the condition that the drug is actually designed to treat. So yes, sometimes it will be people who on their deathbed (or at least carrying some kind of terminal diagnosis) that have no other therapeutic options. Given the choice between “doing nothing” and “trying something which is not yet proven to work and may in fact kill you faster” there are some people willing to take the second option because it provides a ray of hope (and from an altruistic standpoint, perhaps they realize that even if it’s too late for them, effectively “donating” their life to research might someday lead to a step forward in treating whatever is killing them). It’s a deeply complex personal choice, and although I do not personally recruit and enroll patients, I still wonder about it frequently.

But as you noted, there are plenty of drugs that aren’t necessarily “person on their deathbed” drugs. One example that happens to be hot right now is the PCSK9 inhibitor, a class of lipid-lowering drugs that have come through Phase 2 trials looking like a winner and currently churning through an array of Phase 3 trials testing it in different populations. The use of lipid-lowering drugs is a complex topic; they can be given to people who have recently experienced a severe cardiovascular event, but they also can be given to old fat guys in their mid-50’s who got their cholesterol checked and heard from TV commercials that having high cholesterol means they’re at high risk of heart attack, so they go ask their cardiologist what they can do to bring down their cholesterol. The PCSK9 inhibitors are (at this time) very expensive and likely going to be targeted more towards people with familial hypercholesterolemia or those who cannot tolerate other lipid-lowering medications…so the enrollment criteria for phase 3 trials are usually set to include that specific profile of patient.

Phase 3 trials are usually big enough to require enrollment at multiple sites, so what you’ll end up with is a host of academic medical centers (and possibly private cardiology practices) who have all agreed to refer their patients for inclusion in the trial. The physician who sees a patient that has high cholesterol but has responded poorly to other lipid-lowering medications can bring up the prospect of enrolling in the trial: “So, Jim, you’ve not responded well to the statins. There’s a new drug that’s in the late stages of research, but not yet approved for commercial use. You might be eligible to enroll in the trial…” and the discussion of the risks and benefits of the trial could proceed from there. The final decision, of course, will rest with the patient, and there has been meta-research done on “factors” that seem to drive patient willingness to participate in research. Some will just do whatever their doctor tells them; some are more inherently suspicious, etc.

Does that make sense?

3 Likes

Interesting. Studies about what it takes to do a study. ITS ALL A CONSPIRACY! lol.

Thanks for the write up. The people who sign up to unknown potential side effects for a little cash seems odd to me, but money talks.

1 Like

I’ll come back and discuss this later…

Drew–

Clinics like Quintiles and PRA are two examples of private places that do Phase trials for cash. You’ll hear in the description on radio or website what they are looking for in terms of subjects (“healthy subjects with no background of_____ for a 3 day trial” is an indication it’s likely a Phase 0 or 1 trial)

Drew, not only do you have multiple sites, but you will have multiple Phase 3 trials most times as well, depending on what question marks are raised. In addition, if you want to expand use of a drug to a new disorder or new population, you generally need additional Phase 3 trials in that population before it is approved for “on-label” use.

Very much so. It surprises the majority of people how real that phrase is lol. There are also cadres of researchers who data mine old trials or population studies for new insights related to different questions.

1 Like

I’m starting to get into Data Analytics type work and this doesn’t suprise me. It is very easy to miss a trend due to noise, but with the right filters it jumps right out. With all the variables of people it could be very challenging. There are enough variables when considering how a piece of pipe behaves under specific conditions, I couldn’t imagine taking into account individual or hereditary factors.

1 Like

Good lord you have no idea. Reading those papers makes me feel glad I don’t work as a statistician like AG lol.

Speaking of, @ActivitiesGuy I might have a paper I’d like to send you for your thoughts here. It came across my desk late last week. I have mixed feelings on it and can’t parse the stats methods very well.

Wow how many people have died using stem cells vs. other FDA approved drugs like chemotherapy?