The Heartbeat of Civilization

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…succesful societies fall when they fail to adapt to changes, and subsequently suffocate under their own weight. Morality has little to do with it. Our current global society won’t last for thousands of years like the great societies of the past because it’s already unable to adapt quickly enough to the changes it affects to it’s environment, biological or cultural. Maintaining an ideal of the past into the future will not suffice to turn that tide, it will only aggrevate our situation because, instead of dealing with current problems working towards a workable solution, you’re pointing fingers and placing blame onto easy scapegoats without making any progress…[/quote]

“We all want progress, but if you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.”

-C. S. Lewis

One can find a C.S. Lewis quote to address most anything!

22

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Morality is imbued in everything.
[/quote]

Exactly, I don’t think most people understand what is meant by morality. I think a bunch of “thou shalt nots” come to their minds.

23

This article is biased, America-YA, bullshit… It is just fucking retarded honestly. I mean, someone of the stuff in it is good and positive, but for the most part it fails to take into account a changing America and isn’t even historically accurate?

Nicaragua about Communism? The USA tried to annex Nicaragua before Communism was even a world reknowned ideology, the USA was trying to swallow Central America since the 1890s, what is not imperial about that?

24

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…succesful societies fall when they fail to adapt to changes, and subsequently suffocate under their own weight. Morality has little to do with it. Our current global society won’t last for thousands of years like the great societies of the past because it’s already unable to adapt quickly enough to the changes it affects to it’s environment, biological or cultural. Maintaining an ideal of the past into the future will not suffice to turn that tide, it will only aggrevate our situation because, instead of dealing with current problems working towards a workable solution, you’re pointing fingers and placing blame onto easy scapegoats without making any progress…

“We all want progress, but if you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.”

-C. S. Lewis

One can find a C.S. Lewis quote to address most anything![/quote]

…altough we probably agree that we’re on the wrong road [for different reasons], i don’t think we’d agree on how to get on the right road. How do you propose to solve that problem?

25

…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…

26

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:When someone builds a building, in every step of the process they have to ask: ‘Is this the correct procedure here, right or wrong?’ When a doctor makes a diagnosis, they have to ask: ‘Does this person have this condition, right or wrong?’ Morality is imbued in everything.

…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…
[/quote]

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality?

27

[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…succesful societies fall when they fail to adapt to changes, and subsequently suffocate under their own weight. Morality has little to do with it. Our current global society won’t last for thousands of years like the great societies of the past because it’s already unable to adapt quickly enough to the changes it affects to it’s environment, biological or cultural. Maintaining an ideal of the past into the future will not suffice to turn that tide, it will only aggrevate our situation because, instead of dealing with current problems working towards a workable solution, you’re pointing fingers and placing blame onto easy scapegoats without making any progress…

“We all want progress, but if you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.”

-C. S. Lewis

One can find a C.S. Lewis quote to address most anything!

…altough we probably agree that we’re on the wrong road [for different reasons], i don’t think we’d agree on how to get on the right road. How do you propose to solve that problem?

[/quote]

How do YOU determine whether a road is the right or wrong one?

28

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality? [/quote]

Yeah, if we, as you said, all agreed on that?

Slavery wasn’t considered a bad thing, until the majority of people thought of it as a bad thing?

(Not sure if you get my point)

29

[quote]asusvenus wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality?

Yeah, if we, as you said, all agreed on that?

Slavery wasn’t considered a bad thing, until the majority of people thought of it as a bad thing?

(Not sure if you get my point)[/quote]

How did people come to believe it was a bad thing?

30

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

How did people come to believe it was a bad thing? [/quote]

I get what you’re saying. But, that’s like saying that people were “immoral” when slavery was okay and suddently became “moral” when they realised it was bad.

I mean, if slavery was bad, shouldn’t they have realised this right away?

31

[quote]asusvenus wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

How did people come to believe it was a bad thing?

I get what you’re saying. But, that’s like saying that people were “immoral” when slavery was okay and suddently became “moral” when they realised it was bad.

I mean, if slavery was bad, shouldn’t they have realised this right away?

[/quote]

Yes, of course. The point is, morality is NOT a matter of social agreement (as was suggested above) or personal proclivity. If it were, we would be able to exalt slavery as the highest form of social order simply by majority agreement. Obviously, that would be a farce, right? Now, the question is: why?

32

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:When someone builds a building, in every step of the process they have to ask: ‘Is this the correct procedure here, right or wrong?’ When a doctor makes a diagnosis, they have to ask: ‘Does this person have this condition, right or wrong?’ Morality is imbued in everything.

…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality? [/quote]

…no, it wouldn’t be a good example. A good example would be to deny same-sex couples the right to marry, and then decide that that isn’t actually the moral thing to do. See?

33

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…succesful societies fall when they fail to adapt to changes, and subsequently suffocate under their own weight. Morality has little to do with it. Our current global society won’t last for thousands of years like the great societies of the past because it’s already unable to adapt quickly enough to the changes it affects to it’s environment, biological or cultural. Maintaining an ideal of the past into the future will not suffice to turn that tide, it will only aggrevate our situation because, instead of dealing with current problems working towards a workable solution, you’re pointing fingers and placing blame onto easy scapegoats without making any progress…

“We all want progress, but if you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.”

-C. S. Lewis

One can find a C.S. Lewis quote to address most anything!

…altough we probably agree that we’re on the wrong road [for different reasons], i don’t think we’d agree on how to get on the right road. How do you propose to solve that problem?

How do YOU determine whether a road is the right or wrong one? [/quote]

…i don’t know. How do yóu determin it?

34

[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality?

…no, it wouldn’t be a good example.
[/quote]

Okay then, so 1. your previous assertion is treading on extremely thin ice, to put it mildly:

[quote] ephrem wrote:
…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not… [/quote]

Now: 2. how do you know it isn’t?

35

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality?

…no, it wouldn’t be a good example.

Okay then, so 1. your previous assertion is treading on extremely thin ice, to put it mildly:

ephrem wrote:
…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…

Now: 2. how do you know it isn’t? [/quote]

…i gave you a good example katz, the full quote reads: “…no, it wouldn’t be a good example. A good example would be to deny same-sex couples the right to marry, and then decide that that isn’t actually the moral thing to do. See?” That’s an actual real-life example of how morality changes as society changes…

…as for number 2: as society changes, the demands the people assert on society changes. This means that what once was considered moral, may no longer be considered moral. That means that morality is fluid and subjective, and not innate or inherent to mankind’s existence…

36

[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality?

…no, it wouldn’t be a good example.

Okay then, so 1. your previous assertion is treading on extremely thin ice, to put it mildly:

ephrem wrote:
…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…

Now: 2. how do you know it isn’t?

…i gave you a good example katz, the full quote reads: “…no, it wouldn’t be a good example. A good example would be to deny same-sex couples the right to marry, and then decide that that isn’t actually the moral thing to do. See?” That’s an actual real-life example of how morality changes as society changes…
[/quote]

LOL! So, now slavery isn’t a historical, real life example? Okay, you may if you wish insert “black people” for “white people with green eyes.”

I’ll address your example after you address mine. I put mine to you first. It’s only fair! :slight_smile:

[quote]…as for number 2: as society changes, the demands the people assert on society changes. This means that what once was considered moral, may no longer be considered moral. That means that morality is fluid and subjective, and not innate or inherent to mankind’s existence…
[/quote]

Okay, so what you’re saying is: if a society deems that slavery is “moral” - then it is. You will either have to admit this is so - or backtrack my friend. I suggest backtracking.

37

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:LOL! So, now slavery isn’t a historical, real life example? Okay, you may if you wish insert “black people” for “white people with green eyes.”

I’ll address your example after you address mine. I put mine to you first. It’s only fair! :slight_smile:

…as for number 2: as society changes, the demands the people assert on society changes. This means that what once was considered moral, may no longer be considered moral. That means that morality is fluid and subjective, and not innate or inherent to mankind’s existence…

Okay, so what you’re saying is: if a society deems that slavery is “moral” - then it is. You will either have to admit this is so - or backtrack my friend. I suggest backtracking.[/quote]

…on your slavery issue: yes, if [a] society deems it morally just to enslave [a] people, then that act is not immoral [to that society]. Just like your society deems it morally wrong to murder people except when the state sanctions it, and then murder becomes the epitome of morality and you will defend your countries right to murder come hell and high water…

…if you are not able to see the mechanisms of this in your own society i suggest you take off those star-spangled sunglasses for once and realise that, inspite of what you believe and have been taught, the US is not [any longer] the pinnacle of anything…

38

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:When someone builds a building, in every step of the process they have to ask: ‘Is this the correct procedure here, right or wrong?’ When a doctor makes a diagnosis, they have to ask: ‘Does this person have this condition, right or wrong?’ Morality is imbued in everything.

…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…
[/quote]

So if a bunch of cannibals decide that you are to be the entree tonight, then that’s moral?

39

[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

So if we all agree that white people with green eyes are inferior and we should enslave them, this is a good example of morality?

…no, it wouldn’t be a good example.

Okay then, so 1. your previous assertion is treading on extremely thin ice, to put it mildly:

ephrem wrote:
…morality is an agreement between groups of people in order for society to function in a, more or less, cohesive manner. We decide what is moral, and what is not…

Now: 2. how do you know it isn’t?

…i gave you a good example katz, the full quote reads: “…no, it wouldn’t be a good example. A good example would be to deny same-sex couples the right to marry, and then decide that that isn’t actually the moral thing to do. See?” That’s an actual real-life example of how morality changes as society changes…

…as for number 2: as society changes, the demands the people assert on society changes. This means that what once was considered moral, may no longer be considered moral. That means that morality is fluid and subjective, and not innate or inherent to mankind’s existence…

[/quote]

It therefore follows that the standard you’re using to determine that morality is ‘fluid and subjective’ is in itself fluid and subjective.

It then follows that, there being no common objective standards to which one may appeal, right-and-wrong becomes a matter of opinion; a matter of who is stronger, has the most guns, and so on.

No wonder this world is hell, if most people believe this.

40

The natural state of the world is darkness. America IS exceptional. To blindly indulge in run of the mill desires of backward peoples will only mean a return to the norm of barbarism.

The glories of modern civilization will not long be for this world if there is no one to defend it. A dark age will mean the supremacy of orthodoxy, a violent and oppressive world, not some utopian state.

A world without America is hardly a world I would care to live in. Except maybe try to carve out a niche as some petty warlord. People need to really think about what that means; what it would be to have rid the world of the supposed evils of America