Expressing a critial view of capitalism in this country often results in a lot of people yelling at you for being anti-American, but David Harvey (a Marxist) in this talk below has some pretty good points. His basic arguement is that capitalism is based on compound growth year after year and that we are getting to the point where that is no longer a realistic goal without accepting some failty devestating effects on society, the environment, etc.
The first one is a 11 min. shortened verison that’s animated and in the second one he lectures for the first 20 min of the video.
The free market, theoretically, maximizes allocative efficiency. Our problem is not capitalism but finding the right amount and type of legislation best suited to regulating the behemoth that the world economy is today.
That critique has some interesting points but is seriously flawed in some respects.
“Nowhere does he even consider talking about how risk was removed from parts of the economy via government intervention in the markets.”
The idea that government intervention is the reason that risk was removed is complete bullshit. The finance industry has spent millions on lobbying year after year that resulted in the deregulation of the finance sector. This process of deregulation (Glass-Steagal getting repealed in 1999, Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, etc.) was taken in the name of growth and the supposed “free market” but we can see what deregulation resulted in aka a worldwide financial crisis. Also, the government didn’t make banks sell their mortgages as securities to other banks over and over.
“The result of free trade, almost unanimously agreed by economists of the left and right, is that all people are better off.”
This is perhaps the biggest crock of shit I’ve heard in a while. Look in to studies on NAFTA; who benefited? Big corporations benefited tremedously, Americans saw a significant amount of manufacturing jobs move to Mexico, and many Mexian farmers were put out of work because they couldn’t compete with big corporations on price. While free trade results in lower prices and more competition, you’d have to be blind to say that it is universially seen as good. It is WELL documented the working class is hurt in many ways by these so called “free trade” agreements.
“The reason India has more billionares than ever is because India has been bringing itself out of poverty via free trade.”
Here’s a quote from the World Bank’s webside under India - Global Poverty Estimates that I think speaks for itself:
“the number of poor people [in India] living under $1.25 a day has increased from 421 million in 1981 to 456 million in 2005”
There are many other points in that critique of David Harvey’s lecture that are just plain wrong.
let me put this real simple for those having a hard time understanding this:
America was founded on a free-market economy and has a constitution designed to protect individual liberty.
Any system of economics or politics that seeks to change us from a free-market economy to any other type of economy, or that lessens or removes individual liberty is on its face ANTI-AMERICAN.
Socialism seek to change the economic system of America and in so doing seeks to lessen individual liberty
Thus socialism is any form is ANTI-AMERICA - by its very nature is anti-American.
to atomsftball37 - good point, I didn’t take in to account the population growth which is important. I got excited.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
let me put this real simple for those having a hard time understanding this:
America was founded on a free-market economy and has a constitution designed to protect individual liberty.
Any system of economics or politics that seeks to change us from a free-market economy to any other type of economy, or that lessens or removes individual liberty is on its face ANTI-AMERICAN.
Socialism seek to change the economic system of America and in so doing seeks to lessen individual liberty
Thus socialism is any form is ANTI-AMERICA - by its very nature is anti-American.
it is that easy . . . .[/quote]
You’re wrong, it’s not that easy. Critizing capitalism isn’t an attack on individual liberty. There are some serious flaws in our system and blindly believing that we have reached the pinnacle of economic systems is being incredibly narrow-minded. At the very least, engage in a serious debate and defend your position rather that simply stating it’s the American way and all else is evil.
I would suggest you think about how you immediatley label any threat to your views as ANTI-AMERICAN. America is a great country exactly because people are free to say what they wish. National pride to the point where any dissenting voice is labeled an outsider and an enemy is exactly the type of behavior that took place in Communist Russia and Nazi Germany. I don’t mean to compare you directly to a Nazi, but a system where any critizism is labeled as evil is only a few steps ahead of a system where critizism is met with a bullet. Both practices seriously inhibit the possiblity of a real debate.
I’m not saying capitalism needs to be replaced by socialism by any means, but saying that anything associated with socialism is an attack on individual liberty is just crazy. We should be able to debate the successes and faliures of both capitalism and socialism without the ANTI-AMERICAN label immediately being thrown around.
[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
That critique has some interesting points but is seriously flawed in some respects.
“Nowhere does he even consider talking about how risk was removed from parts of the economy via government intervention in the markets.”
The idea that government intervention is the reason that risk was removed is complete bullshit. The finance industry has spent millions on lobbying year after year that resulted in the deregulation of the finance sector. This process of deregulation (Glass-Steagal getting repealed in 1999, Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, etc.) was taken in the name of growth and the supposed “free market” but we can see what deregulation resulted in aka a worldwide financial crisis. Also, the government didn’t make banks sell their mortgages as securities to other banks over and over.
[/quote]
Wow, gonna totally ignore the moral hazard? Or that lobbying only works if it WORKS? Or that the financial sector is and has been the most regulated part of our economy forever?
Hmm? And how many PEOPLE in India are there now? The fact that you didn’t consider a population boom in India makes you look mighty foolish.
[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
to atomsftball37 - good point, I didn’t take in to account the population growth which is important. I got excited.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
let me put this real simple for those having a hard time understanding this:
America was founded on a free-market economy and has a constitution designed to protect individual liberty.
Any system of economics or politics that seeks to change us from a free-market economy to any other type of economy, or that lessens or removes individual liberty is on its face ANTI-AMERICAN.
Socialism seek to change the economic system of America and in so doing seeks to lessen individual liberty
Thus socialism is any form is ANTI-AMERICA - by its very nature is anti-American.
it is that easy . . . .[/quote]
You’re wrong, it’s not that easy. Critizing capitalism isn’t an attack on individual liberty. There are some serious flaws in our system and blindly believing that we have reached the pinnacle of economic systems is being incredibly narrow-minded. At the very least, engage in a serious debate and defend your position rather that simply stating it’s the American way and all else is evil.
I would suggest you think about how you immediatley label any threat to your views as ANTI-AMERICAN. America is a great country exactly because people are free to say what they wish. National pride to the point where any dissenting voice is labeled an outsider and an enemy is exactly the type of behavior that took place in Communist Russia and Nazi Germany. I don’t mean to compare you directly to a Nazi, but a system where any critizism is labeled as evil is only a few steps ahead of a system where critizism is met with a bullet. Both practices seriously inhibit the possiblity of a real debate.
I’m not saying capitalism needs to be replaced by socialism by any means, but saying that anything associated with socialism is an attack on individual liberty is just crazy. We should be able to debate the successes and faliures of both capitalism and socialism without the ANTI-AMERICAN label immediately being thrown around.[/quote]
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
let me put this real simple for those having a hard time understanding this:
America was founded on a free-market economy and has a constitution designed to protect individual liberty.
Any system of economics or politics that seeks to change us from a free-market economy to any other type of economy, or that lessens or removes individual liberty is on its face ANTI-AMERICAN.
Socialism seek to change the economic system of America and in so doing seeks to lessen individual liberty
Thus socialism is any form is ANTI-AMERICA - by its very nature is anti-American.
it is that easy . . . .[/quote]
Trouble is that most Americans are either amoral (and thus easy for the plucking) or are altruistic in their moral beliefs. Both of those conflict with the ethic required for capitalism – rational selfishness.
Thing is, this is by far the greatest country on the planet, bar non. if you think we would have gained our prosperity and standard of living under socialism is to ignore history. It is easy to think that another system would be better, problem is that when people don’t have to earn things they get, they don’t work! It has happened throughout human history, we never learn from the prior generations, if we did, we wouldn’t be having this discusion!
PS the NAZI party stands for (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism) they were and are socialists. Fascism is a type of socialism in which industry is in bed with the govt. Good luck to us all! Not saying well start frying Jews, but just sayin.
[quote]sportyrider wrote:
Thing is, this is by far the greatest country on the planet, bar non.[/quote]
Statements like these are about as pig-headed as they come. By what standard are we the greatest country on the planet? What the fuck do you even mean by that statement? Do you really think our shit doesn’t stink, simply because we’re the United States and everything we do is good by default?
What I mean you fucking douche, is that if you would look at history, Germany, Italy, Soviet Union, many latin america countries, china, vietnam, laos, etc etc, you would see that what you want or think you want for a govt system fucking SUCKS for personal freedom! In fact, they KILL millions of their citizens.
Maybe your such a weak fuck that you cant take care of yourself and think you deserve to have politicians steal money from my kids mouths so you can use your welfare to buy food staples so that you can use your other money to buy beer and smokes and cell phones and shit like that! Or maybe your well to do and you think that others are so pathetic that you know better and should “help” them because your so suppierior! You fuck!
Leave my family alone, I already work 2 jobs to put my wife thru school and raise my 5 kids, yeah fuck you, I’ll do it my self, I dont need a douche bag in washington to fuck my kids future!
This country was founded by men who took care of shit, not pussies that look to others to do what they should do for themselves!
You liberals make me sick, just a bunch of friggin idiots that ignore reality.
[quote]sportyrider wrote:
Thing is, this is by far the greatest country on the planet, bar non.[/quote]
Statements like these are about as pig-headed as they come. By what standard are we the greatest country on the planet? What the fuck do you even mean by that statement? Do you really think our shit doesn’t stink, simply because we’re the United States and everything we do is good by default?[/quote]
And here you reveal your true colors.
By what standard? Virtually any one that matters.
I used to love this forum. Now you can’t swing a cat in here without hitting a hand full of pussy little shit bags such as yourself.
Want socialism? Then your a moron and unfortunately our colleges are puking out enough of you spineless little pricks that without anything short of divine intervention it will be here within a generation.
For fucks sake, move to Canada, buy a Prius and join the chorus of other castrated apologists that aren’t worthy of calling themselves Americans.
Oh, and in case you didn’t get the message,
Fuck you.
[quote]sportyrider wrote:
What I mean you fucking douche, is that if you would look at history, Germany, Italy, Soviet Union, many latin america countries, china, vietnam, laos, etc etc, you would see that what you want or think you want for a govt system fucking SUCKS for personal freedom! In fact, they KILL millions of their citizens.
Maybe your such a weak fuck that you cant take care of yourself and think you deserve to have politicians steal money from my kids mouths so you can use your welfare to buy food staples so that you can use your other money to buy beer and smokes and cell phones and shit like that! Or maybe your well to do and you think that others are so pathetic that you know better and should “help” them because your so suppierior! You fuck!
Leave my family alone, I already work 2 jobs to put my wife thru school and raise my 5 kids, yeah fuck you, I’ll do it my self, I dont need a douche bag in washington to fuck my kids future!
This country was founded by men who took care of shit, not pussies that look to others to do what they should do for themselves!
You liberals make me sick, just a bunch of friggin idiots that ignore reality. [/quote]
tantrum - an emotional outburst that is typically characterized by stubbornness, crying, screaming, defiance, angry ranting
I’m amused at how fast you guys restorted to demonizing socialism and telling me to fuck off when my only mention of socialism in this thread has been:
[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
I’m not saying capitalism needs to be replaced by socialism by any means… We should be able to debate the successes and failures of both capitalism and socialism without the ANTI-AMERICAN label immediately being thrown around.
[/quote]
This thread, which was meant to open up possible debate about the shortcomings of capitalism mentioned in the video I posted, turned in to a dick measuring contest real fast. Thanks for killing my topic guys, I’ll see ya out there.
[quote]sportyrider wrote:
Thing is, this is by far the greatest country on the planet, bar non. if you think we would have gained our prosperity and standard of living under socialism is to ignore history.[/quote]
The economy of the United States (like all rich countries) has been built up with protectionist policies. The only countries that has truly practised something even remotely similar to free trade are unindustrialised countries which had that system forced upon them.
[quote]sportyrider wrote:
It is easy to think that another system would be better, problem is that when people don’t have to earn things they get, they don’t work! It has happened throughout human history, we never learn from the prior generations, if we did, we wouldn’t be having this discusion![/quote]
Not true. Many countries have lower unemployment rates than the US. Most of those countries are much more socialistic. People don’t simply stop working in socialist countries. The unemployment rate in the US is 9.5%, in Norway it’s 3,7%.
And I would also be curious to know by which standards the US is the greatest country in the world.
[quote]
And here you reveal your true colors.
By what standard? Virtually any one that matters. [/quote]
Such as?
Good topic Chomskyan. For some people it’s just impossible to have an educated debate about anything. Lots of ranting from the Glen Beckers, but no proper arguments. I wonder why…
[quote]sportyrider wrote:
Thing is, this is by far the greatest country on the planet, bar non.[/quote]
Statements like these are about as pig-headed as they come. By what standard are we the greatest country on the planet? What the fuck do you even mean by that statement? Do you really think our shit doesn’t stink, simply because we’re the United States and everything we do is good by default?[/quote]
And here you reveal your true colors.
By what standard? Virtually any one that matters.
I used to love this forum. Now you can’t swing a cat in here without hitting a hand full of pussy little shit bags such as yourself.
Want socialism? Then your a moron and unfortunately our colleges are puking out enough of you spineless little pricks that without anything short of divine intervention it will be here within a generation.
For fucks sake, move to Canada, buy a Prius and join the chorus of other castrated apologists that aren’t worthy of calling themselves Americans.
Oh, and in case you didn’t get the message,
Fuck you.
[/quote]
Don’t worry JEATON, There are more people thinking like me then there are thinking like them. People my age love my free market talk, my bashing of the government. Let me tell you there is a Laissez faire movement brewing.
[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
tantrum - an emotional outburst that is typically characterized by stubbornness, crying, screaming, defiance, angry ranting
I’m amused at how fast you guys restorted to demonizing socialism and telling me to fuck off when my only mention of socialism in this thread has been:
[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
I’m not saying capitalism needs to be replaced by socialism by any means… We should be able to debate the successes and failures of both capitalism and socialism without the ANTI-AMERICAN label immediately being thrown around.
[/quote]
This thread, which was meant to open up possible debate about the shortcomings of capitalism mentioned in the video I posted, turned in to a dick measuring contest real fast. Thanks for killing my topic guys, I’ll see ya out there.[/quote]
Looks like Jeaton and sportyriders measurements are much bigger than yours. By the way just look around and you will see all the discussions you want about the short comings of Capitalism, and those are much fewer than the short coming of Socialism that you are pushing.
