The Greatest Armed Services Ever

orion · January 1, 2009, 2:58pm

[quote]aussie101 wrote:

May we also count the Jews that were turned away from your and Americas shores?

There was not many jewish people trying to get into our country during the war as it was a world away. When they did we let them (to fight the yellow peril). [/quote]

I take your word for it, because my knowledge regarding Australia’s role in WWII is next to non-existent.

It is an interesting question though if Australia would have been affected by Japans expansionary politics without the start of the war in Europe,

aussie101 · January 1, 2009, 3:25pm

Probably, as the Jap’s military leaders (who ran the show over there) where hell bent on their co-east asian prosperity sphere, and by the time the war in europe begun had already gone too far to simply pull out of china and manchuria.

The U.S trade embargo made it impossible for the japanese to survive without taking the pacific, so the outbreak of war over here was only slightly affected by the war in europe. Without it though Britain would have been far more useful, as both they and the U.S could of used there combined might to defeat the Japanese.

The japanese would of been doomed facing the allies without the war in europe, but as there supplies of oil etc were going to run out they had no other choice.

So imo yes we would of been, except the japs probably never would of been in the position to bomb darwin, or do any real damage in the pacific.

thunderbolt23 · January 1, 2009, 3:40pm

[quote]hedo wrote:

The Swiss Army is small. It cannot project it’s power or manuever with any degree of speed. It is vulnerable to blockade or isolation. In other words it can simply be ignored and isolated. Since the Swiss have a history or diplomacy they would no doubt seek terms if faced with starvation. Those terms would be dicated by the aggressor.
If your military can only fight a holding action while you seek surrender terms, you are not the “Greatest Military Ever” Hardly in the same ranks as the US, Britian, Australia, Russia and China…the only worthy competitors for that title in modern times.[/quote]

Well stated.

The idea that the Swiss Army is the “greatest” on the basis that it has never been tested is akin to a homely girl declaring she is the “most beautiful” on the basis she never gets asked out on a date.

thunderbolt23 · January 1, 2009, 3:52pm

In addition, Swiss citizens are subject to conscription until 30 years of age. Even more interesting, those men over 25 or otherwise unfit to for military service pay an additional percentage of tax on income if they are unable to perform military service.

Such mechanics of modern “slavery” in service to the state would ordinarily overheat a brainless Marxist-Austrian libertarian, but when there is important anklebiting to pursue, such facts get pocketed out of convenience.

orion · January 1, 2009, 5:24pm

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
In addition, Swiss citizens are subject to conscription until 30 years of age. Even more interesting, those men over 25 or otherwise unfit to for military service pay an additional percentage of tax on income if they are unable to perform military service.

Such mechanics of modern “slavery” in service to the state would ordinarily overheat a brainless Marxist-Austrian libertarian, but when there is important anklebiting to pursue, such facts get pocketed out of convenience.[/quote]

Not really, my post was about the “Greatest Armed Service Ever!”, so I guess the violent and coercive nature of all militaries is a given.

Furthermore, the alleged “glory” of the US army stems from a time where not only the country as a whole had to be dragged into the war kicking and screaming, but almost every single soldier had to be pressed into service as well.

What is really interesting though that we have heard a lot about why the Swiss army sucks and that America defeated Hitler and such, but not one argument regarding as to what makes a military “great” and why, and whether it is even desirable to have a “great military” in a republic.

The original post, inspiring this thread was from Bill Roberts, stating that if the US divided :

I find it hard to grasp the idea of an army whose “greatness” lies beyond the service it provides for its nation or is somehow independent of it.

In my view the Swiss army quietly and efficiently has served its society for centuries and that is what makes a great army in my book.

Well, that and the lack of need for constant bragging.

orion · January 1, 2009, 5:26pm

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
hedo wrote:

The Swiss Army is small. It cannot project it’s power or manuever with any degree of speed. It is vulnerable to blockade or isolation. In other words it can simply be ignored and isolated. Since the Swiss have a history or diplomacy they would no doubt seek terms if faced with starvation. Those terms would be dicated by the aggressor.
If your military can only fight a holding action while you seek surrender terms, you are not the “Greatest Military Ever” Hardly in the same ranks as the US, Britian, Australia, Russia and China…the only worthy competitors for that title in modern times.

Well stated.

The idea that the Swiss Army is the “greatest” on the basis that it has never been tested is akin to a homely girl declaring she is the “most beautiful” on the basis she never gets asked out on a date.[/quote]

Interestingly enough, the most beautiful woman have a harder time to be asked on a date than more average looking women.

Maybe the same principles are at work?

Timid men go for the lower hanging fruits?

thunderbolt23 · January 1, 2009, 6:16pm

[quote]orion wrote:

What is really interesting though that we have heard a lot about why the Swiss army sucks and that America defeated Hitler and such, but not one argument regarding as to what makes a military “great” and why, and whether it is even desirable to have a “great military” in a republic.[/quote]

For a simple reason, known to anyone with any sense of history - because even if a country is a Republic, there is no guarantee its neighbors are.

“Great things” will always need protecting in the world - we don’t have the luxury of Utopia, no matter its flavor.

A great military is desirable for the simple fact that “great things” don’t last in perpetuity because coffee-house philosophers wish them to - they last because “rough men stand read to do violence” on behalf of preserving them.

It hasn’t done anything at all - you don’t have any idea if it has served its society “efficiently” except for forcing its citizens to serve the state against their free will when they could otherwise be engaging in private pursuits: it hasn’t done anything (yet).

Rather, it isn’t the Swiss army you are interested in at all - it is Switzerland’s non-activity in the world of foreign affairs. You don’t have an argument as to the “greatness” of the Swiss army, only glee that they have never been called into service.

orion · January 1, 2009, 6:55pm

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
orion wrote:

What is really interesting though that we have heard a lot about why the Swiss army sucks and that America defeated Hitler and such, but not one argument regarding as to what makes a military “great” and why, and whether it is even desirable to have a “great military” in a republic.

For a simple reason, known to anyone with any sense of history - because even if a country is a Republic, there is no guarantee its neighbors are.

“Great things” will always need protecting in the world - we don’t have the luxury of Utopia, no matter its flavor.

A great military is desirable for the simple fact that “great things” don’t last in perpetuity because coffee-house philosophers wish them to - they last because “rough men stand read to do violence” on behalf of preserving them.

In my view the Swiss army quietly and efficiently has served its society for centuries and that is what makes a great army in my book.

It hasn’t done anything at all - you don’t have any idea if it has served its society “efficiently” except for forcing its citizens to serve the state against their free will when they could otherwise be engaging in private pursuits: it hasn’t done anything (yet).

Rather, it isn’t the Swiss army you are interested in at all - it is Switzerland’s non-activity in the world of foreign affairs. You don’t have an argument as to the “greatness” of the Swiss army, only glee that they have never been called into service. [/quote]

And again, I have give my reasons why I think that the Swiss army is a great army, and yes, its history of non-interventionism is one reason and one very befitting a republic I might add.

Safety is a public good and they provide it, relatively cheap and efficiently.

I cannot help but notice that you have stated what makes a “great” military desirable, not what constitutes “greatness”.

How do we know a military is “great” or not?

It would also be interesting to hear how I could possibly derive “malicious satisfaction” that the Swiss army has never killed on a massive scale.

Bill_Roberts · January 1, 2009, 9:06pm

[quote]orion wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
But to an ingrate who doesn’t want to admit he owes his personal freedom to the armed services of the United States of America, of course it makes sense that the Swiss Army is allegedly greater. Not only makes sense, but is probably psychologically necessary.

Well the very army that laid the groundwork for several revolutions during and after WWI helped us deal with the consequences afterwards.

I would indeed have preferred to achieve the exact same situation we have now without Hitler, Stalin and WWII, so yes, thank your grandfather for putting out the fires his father poured gas into.

But maybe it is psychologically necessary for you to believe that the history of American involvement in European affairs started ca 1944?[/quote]

I knew you’d prove my point with your reply. Thanx

thunderbolt23 · January 2, 2009, 2:15am

[quote]orion wrote:

And again, I have give my reasons why I think that the Swiss army is a great army, and yes, its history of non-interventionism is one reason and one very befitting a republic I might add.[/quote]

And again, it is baseless - an army isn’t “good”, “great”, or “bad” if it has never been called to perform its duty.

Not particularly, because no one has made a credible argument that Switzerland hasn’t been attacked because of the fear of their army.

We don’t know if it much provides that public good or not.

[quote]I cannot help but notice that you have stated what makes a “great” military desirable, not what constitutes “greatness”.

How do we know a military is “great” or not?[/quote]

A number of things - its capabilities, its past performances, etc. We know two things: (1) the Swiss Army’s capabilities do not appear to be impressive, and (2) it has no body of work to measure it.

So, any claims that the Swiss Army are “great” don’t mean much - what you want to say is that you love the Swiss government’s never calling the Swiss Army to action. That isn’t any measure of the army.

I never made the claim, so I couldn’t care less.

Also, the fact that the Swiss Army has conscription and punishes exempt Swiss citizens by making them pay more income taxes is surely not the sign of a “great” army by the lights of Marxist-Austrian libertarian numbskullery, but on this point - a decidedly non-voluntary army - you remain silent in your evaluation of “greatness!”.

300andabove · January 2, 2009, 1:24pm

Can i just add, PLEASE PLEASE do not take this guys take on the worlds great armies or the US in general as to what Europeans think about the US.

Unfortunately we have ALOT of socialism here, where people seem to equate power with badness.

And Orion if you are from Austria do you not owe your ability to speak freely to the country you seem hell bent on critisising ?

As i said before, why Britian/US ever bother trying to help people is fucking beyond me let mainland Europe destroy themselves, i like this island just bloody fine.

And if i get bored ill go to the US and have a fun time with them.

hedo · January 2, 2009, 1:58pm

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
So how many tens of millions of people has the Swiss Army freed from horrific oppression and dictatorship? How much does the freedom enjoyed by so many around so much of the world owe to the Swiss Army?

Oh wait, is the answer none and not any?

Doesn’t sound like true greatness to me.

Is that the job of an army? To free other people from oppression and dictatorship? Now even if I agreed for discussions sake that any army ever did more harm than good trying to achieve that, how is that not a form of welfare and how could we possibly hope that a government can make that work in another country when it fails to do so in its own?

But to an ingrate who doesn’t want to admit he owes his personal freedom to the armed services of the United States of America, of course it makes sense that the Swiss Army is allegedly greater. Not only makes sense, but is probably psychologically necessary.

Well the very army that laid the groundwork for several revolutions during and after WWI helped us deal with the consequences afterwards.

I would indeed have preferred to achieve the exact same situation we have now without Hitler, Stalin and WWII, so yes, thank your grandfather for putting out the fires his father poured gas into.

But maybe it is psychologically necessary for you to believe that the history of American involvement in European affairs started ca 1944?

Europes problems were created by Europeans. Unfortunately for the rest of the world they lacked the ability or character to fix them. The Americans had to do it for them and now they resent it since they have lived in a relative era of peace. This attitude is particularly pronounced on the continent and Orion is simply a product of that upbringing. To this day Europe still cannot stand on it’s own militarily and most of it’s armies are hollow or make work programs. Other then Britian most Euro armies would be hard presed to but a division in the field even if they had the desire to do so. That division would last about two weeks before running out of supplies if the US didn’t provide airlift capability.

As to the greatest Military ever. The Swiss Armey isn’t even under consideration. This is merely a mindless point Orion seeks to make so he can spew his rhetoric. Arguing military affairs with Orion is pointless. He is too one dimensional to make it interesting and he assumes his opinion to be fact.

The Swiss Army is small. It cannot project it’s power or manuever with any degree of speed. It is vulnerable to blockade or isolation. In other words it can simply be ignored and isolated. Since the Swiss have a history or diplomacy they would no doubt seek terms if faced with starvation. Those terms would be dicated by the aggressor.
If your military can only fight a holding action while you seek surrender terms, you are not the “Greatest Military Ever” Hardly in the same ranks as the US, Britian, Australia, Russia and China…the only worthy competitors for that title in modern times.

No Hitler without Versailles, no Versailles with the US.

So, US involvement was undoubtedly a conditio sine qua non for Hitler´s rise.

That does not put the blame on the US, but it shows that government actions tend to have unintended consequences. If an American conservative like you fails to see that the minute the American armed forces are involved it is probably a result of your upbringing?

Then, your idea of “greatness” when it comes to a military is a military that is able to reach out and make other people bow to its will, merely successfully keeping the homeland safe does not seem to be enough.

That however is an army that is more fitting for an empire, not a republic and I think the founders of your republic agree with me.

[/quote]

No Versailles without the Europeans and all of the problems and character flaws in your leadership. The fate of the Europeans has always been in their own hands put they have chosen to shift that responsibility to others.

What you are doing is asking a question and then changing the parameters of what you think is an acceptable answer.

You need to try someting new rather then simply repeating back what is provided to you if you want to be taken seriosuly.

No doubt those that brought you up would be proud. The rest of us merely amused. It’s been institutionalized in you. No other line of reasoning is possible as your response has pointed out.

sjoconn · January 2, 2009, 2:02pm

[quote]300andabove wrote:
Can i just add, PLEASE PLEASE do not take this guys take on the worlds great armies or the US in general as to what Europeans think about the US.

Unfortunately we have ALOT of socialism here, where people seem to equate power with badness.

And Orion if you are from Austria do you not owe your ability to speak freely to the country you seem hell bent on critisising ?

As i said before, why Britian/US ever bother trying to help people is fucking beyond me let mainland Europe destroy themselves, i like this island just bloody fine.

And if i get bored ill go to the US and have a fun time with them.[/quote]

I am not currently in the States, but this post gets you a free pass on my couch anytime you want to crash for a few weeks.

DoubleDuce · January 2, 2009, 4:39pm

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
So how many tens of millions of people has the Swiss Army freed from horrific oppression and dictatorship? How much does the freedom enjoyed by so many around so much of the world owe to the Swiss Army?