The Founding Fathers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]dhickey wrote:

He certainly didn’t push any religion. He also did rail against public displays of religion or public expressions of religion. There was one evangelical that he was taken with. I can’t recall who it was, but he was one of the first to hold sermans outside the church. He was actually forced to do this becuase churches would not welcome him into their church when he came to town. He would draw huge crowds. [/quote]

I believe you’re referring to Jonathon Edwards.[quote]

I am just getting into Franklin. I have only read what others have written about him. I did just get his autobiography and will start it soon.
[/quote]

It’s pretty funny actually. Particularly hearing him getting tricked by pretty girls and his stint being a vegetarian.

mike

42

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Even so, I find it hard to believe that the Deists among them would object to local and self-sufficient schools teaching creationism, while applauding efforts to instruct other peoples children in the use of condoms, homosexual relationships, etc., [/quote]

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

And schools rarely “instruct people on homosexual relationships.”

You have a very warped perception of things.

43

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:

I believe you’re referring to Jonathon Edwards.

mike[/quote]

Wasn’t he the “the road to hell is paved with the skulls of unbaptized infants” guy?

44

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.
[/quote]

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

45

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.[/quote]

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.

46

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.[/quote]

Uh… where I’m from the private schools are much much better. Of course they weren’t religious either. They also sucked, but the public schools weren’t an option for responsible parents. So if you wanted your child to get a remotely respectable education you had to pay thousands of dollars a year in tuition plus taxes that went to a horrible public system that you weren’t using.

Public schools are terrible some places.

You sound like you are even arguing for the federalization of schools.

47

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Even so, I find it hard to believe that the Deists among them would object to local and self-sufficient schools teaching creationism, while applauding efforts to instruct other peoples children in the use of condoms, homosexual relationships, etc.,

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

And schools rarely “instruct people on homosexual relationships.”

You have a very warped perception of things.[/quote]

We’ll see more and more “King and King” incidents. Somebody is going to indoctrinate children with your tax dollars. They want to instruct the children of evangelicals in evolution, condomns, and “diversity.” In turn, evangelicals want sex ed. and moral questions left to parents, with creationism at least instructed as an alternative. Just depends on who has the political strength at the time.

48

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.[/quote]

So, control? Those dumb rural kids need to be more like the shining examples of humanity, the city kids.

49

[quote]Sloth wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Even so, I find it hard to believe that the Deists among them would object to local and self-sufficient schools teaching creationism, while applauding efforts to instruct other peoples children in the use of condoms, homosexual relationships, etc.,

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

And schools rarely “instruct people on homosexual relationships.”

You have a very warped perception of things.

We’ll see more and more “King and King” incidents. Somebody is going to indoctrinate children with your tax dollars. They want to instruct the children of evangelicals in evolution, condomns, and “diversity.” In turn, evangelicals want sex ed. and moral questions left to parents, with creationism at least instructed as an alternative. Just depends on who has the political strength at the time.[/quote]

For the sake of humanity let’s hope it’s the the former.

50

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:

Perhaps, but they do have reason to fall back on so if they want to take the journey they can. Others, believe what they believe and they don’t give a rat’s ass if it’s right, wrong, or indifferent. They don’t want to be bothered with the task of thinking about it.

Maybe the problem is with the people over the religion.[/quote]

Doubt it, unless there are weapons or laws involved. Religious journey is a personal one ultimately. People have to make up their own minds despite what they have been taught. Nobody can force you to have a relationship with God. They can force you to go through the motions, but not the beliefs.

51

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.[/quote]

Yup, Belgium is obviously still burning witches.

It´s a tragedy.

Let´s invade them so that they are no longer denied the benefits of the best education system in the whole world.

/sarcasm

52

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.[/quote]

You’re operating on the assumption that private schooling or homeschooling necessarily means religious schooling, which wouldn’t be the case at all.

And in my humble opinion, nobody, not even the most back-asswards fundamentalist Christian Creation Science-teaching private school, could do a worse job “educating” American children than the federal indoctrination centers that pass for public schools these days.

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

53

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
If you wanted the death toll from Christian wars, executions, and all other things, I’m sure it would be very close to the Muslim number. It would probably, honestly, greatly surpass it.

I can’t imagine this being true. You need to read a bit more about the origins of Islam

How many deaths do you need? I wasn’t, per se, referencing priests that were executing people, but all of the deaths caused in the name of a Christian God- such as the Catholic/Protestant wars in Northern Ireland, the Inquisition, the people put to death for violating church doctrines, the Crusades, etc.

My point isn’t that Christianity is worse, just that when it comes down to it, people kill each other over something that they can’t prove.

And sometimes that gets wrapped up in nationalism, I agree. But that doesn’t mean that the religion that is at the root gets a free pass. One is not better than the other. [/quote]

Well if your are worried over acts of evil, the good news is that no one group of people is absolved…Religious or otherwise. People kill each other all the time. Demonizing all organized religions for sins of it’s past is not necessarily fair. A lot of good has been done by them as well. Further look at what they say now about what happened in the past. Further, further, history will likely vindicate a lot of things blamed on religion. Because religion and state were not separate, many things states did religion got the blame for. So, yes, there have been crimes committed by organized religions because the people in them were acted on behalf of themselves and not the cause they stood for. Yet, there are many events in history where people just see the word ‘church’ and ‘a bad thing’ and go ahead and make the association, where that event may have not been of the church.

What should religions do when they are/were faced with people commiting acts of evil for it or in it’s name? Should they just quit? Or do they pick themselves up, dust themselves off and try again?
You don’t believe in organizations who have not given up, would you even consider giving credence to a organization that gives up immediately upon it’s first mistake?
People run churches, people fuck up. It’s not giving in and giving up that makes the difference.

54

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.[/quote]

wanna bet on that.

55

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.[/quote]

oh wow really, funny most fo the best medical/science institutes in the US are Jesuit or Catholic in origin.
Yeah good point.

sorry but the whole christians are dumb thing is getting old, what most people fall to accept is that many of the concepts actually tought of evolution are just as full of holes as the concept of religion or god, and need the same type of faith to get te the answers.

privatizing schools is a good idea, the only people that dont think so are ones who don’t care enought about their children to do what it takes to get them a good education.

how is that for a generalization for you.

56

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
oh wow really, funny most fo the best medical/science institutes in the US are Jesuit or Catholic in origin.
Yeah good point. [/quote]

I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but if it is, it’s no big surprise. Catholics (and Jesuits are Catholics too) accept the theory of evolution as a fact; pope John Paul II proclaimed that evolution was “more than just a hypothesis”. And although he was completely unqualified to comment on it one way or another - popes are generally unqualified about everything they offer opinion on - his science advisors probably told him the Church would just look silly if they kept trying to ignore the mountain of evidence in support of evolution. They were over 50 years too late in their “official” recognition; but that’s the Church for you. The Bronze Age is such a comfortable place for simple ideas.

Not really. It’s a common claim found on creationist websites, but spouting bullshit is so much easier than trying to understand what the actual theory says.

Does it explain everything? No, not yet. It has changed and, well, evolved since Darwin formulated the first version, but each and every discovery since then has only clarified and strengthened the theory. Genetics and DNA, for example, were unknown in the time of Darwin and their discovery could have completely invalidated the theory (if, for example, each species has it’s own brand of DNA with specie-particular genes or if modern descendants of past extinct species shared no common genes with their ancestors.) Instead, genetics fit right in with the theory and led to a better understanding of the mechanisms of change and adaptation over time.

You’re entirely right that not all Christians are dumb; in fact, most are quite normally intelligent. A lot of them are willfully ignorant though, and will spring for bullshit rationalizations over solid evidence if it lets them keep their belief in things that are demonstrably untrue.

[quote]privatizing schools is a good idea, the only people that dont think so are ones who don’t care enought about their children to do what it takes to get them a good education.

how is that for a generalization for you.[/quote]

As good as most generalization usually are.

57

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

wanna bet on that.

[/quote]

Ok fine, credible biologists.

58

[quote]pookie wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
oh wow really, funny most fo the best medical/science institutes in the US are Jesuit or Catholic in origin.
Yeah good point.

I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but if it is, it’s no big surprise. Catholics (and Jesuits are Catholics too) accept the theory of evolution as a fact; pope John Paul II proclaimed that evolution was “more than just a hypothesis”. And although he was completely unqualified to comment on it one way or another - popes are generally unqualified about everything they offer opinion on - his science advisors probably told him the Church would just look silly if they kept trying to ignore the mountain of evidence in support of evolution. They were over 50 years too late in their “official” recognition; but that’s the Church for you. The Bronze Age is such a comfortable place for simple ideas.

sorry but the whole christians are dumb thing is getting old, what most people fall to accept is that many of the concepts actually tought of evolution are just as full of holes as the concept of religion or god, and need the same type of faith to get te the answers.

Not really. It’s a common claim found on creationist websites, but spouting bullshit is so much easier than trying to understand what the actual theory says.

Does it explain everything? No, not yet. It has changed and, well, evolved since Darwin formulated the first version, but each and every discovery since then has only clarified and strengthened the theory. Genetics and DNA, for example, were unknown in the time of Darwin and their discovery could have completely invalidated the theory (if, for example, each species has it’s own brand of DNA with specie-particular genes or if modern descendants of past extinct species shared no common genes with their ancestors.) Instead, genetics fit right in with the theory and led to a better understanding of the mechanisms of change and adaptation over time.

You’re entirely right that not all Christians are dumb; in fact, most are quite normally intelligent. A lot of them are willfully ignorant though, and will spring for bullshit rationalizations over solid evidence if it lets them keep their belief in things that are demonstrably untrue.

privatizing schools is a good idea, the only people that dont think so are ones who don’t care enought about their children to do what it takes to get them a good education.

how is that for a generalization for you.

As good as most generalization usually are.
[/quote]

Oh. Nice.

59

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

That would be great. The country would be full of more morons than it is now.

I don’t think it would change much to be honest. The people who believe in creationism aren’t going to go on to become biologists anyway.

True, but I see kids in rural settings going to religious schools because they’re closer or cheaper and not even being exposed to the world of science. America doesn’t need a generation that thinks that angels push the moon across the sky again.

Privatization of schools would bring the entire country down. I have trouble believing that anyone thinks thats a good thing.

Uh… where I’m from the private schools are much much better. Of course they weren’t religious either. They also sucked, but the public schools weren’t an option for responsible parents. So if you wanted your child to get a remotely respectable education you had to pay thousands of dollars a year in tuition plus taxes that went to a horrible public system that you weren’t using.

Public schools are terrible some places.

You sound like you are even arguing for the federalization of schools.[/quote]

No. But where I am, some public schools are very, very good, and some are not- it depends greatly on what town you live in. Catholic schools are, by and large the better ones, of course.

The state government has demolished the NJ public schools even though they’re some of the best in the country.

I think I misunderstood what Sloth was saying, and for some reason the image of kids in rural areas only being taught creationism because that was the school that was around really got to me. I was not thinking clearly when I answered that. Apologies.

60

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

oh wow really, funny most fo the best medical/science institutes in the US are Jesuit or Catholic in origin.
Yeah good point.
[/quote]

I have no idea if that’s true. And “in origin” doesn’t mean “still is”, either.

I am not calling Christians dumb. What I am saying is that I can’t respect people that reject a scientific hypothesis that are based on the extensive collection of empirical data and the interpretation thereof in favor of saying “the 2,000 year old book said that’s not how it happened.”

And no, the concept of religion of religion or god is not full of holes- it’s a gigantic fucking hole itself. There’s no proof, there’s no evidence, there’s nothing to be tested, gathered, or experimented with. It’s just my word against yours. That’s not acceptable to me.

Hence why when I started this thread, I said that I was surprised that evidently, many of the founding fathers (and other spectacularly genius minds of all generations) have seen these magnificent holes in theology, and sometimes rejected religion altogether, although they did not dismiss the basic idea that God could, in some form or another, exist.

I am not sure whether privatization is good or not. But you need to learn where the damn shift key and the periods are. You’re driving me fucking nuts.