Elbows out and taking it to the neck should be done with extreme caution if at all. These two contributed to my shoulder issue, I’m sure. The point about the PL style taking the feel of the chest out of it is true to a point. For upper chest development I like doing neutral grip inclines with db’s. Also I like doing a modified fly/press with db’s for this area also. The depth off of the sternum really improves. I’d suggest doing one of the above before your BB inclines for better pec development.
To deal with the discussion of movement, origins,insertions, etc… (before it becomes an argument) let everyone check out the following for some cool info.
I should qualify this confusing point on the minor and inclines. I do the bar squeezing or bending technique which involves the minor as a synergist. I notice defininte development. It is true that for direct stimulation of the minor the inclines don’t do the best job. The clavicular portion of the pecs are getting hammered here.
DH
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Sweet and short…they make the “A” list in my book. The pec minor, having a different origin/insertion tangent (obviously) than does the pec major, is stimulated via inclines. I see a noticable difference in my upper thickness with inclines and a discernable “flattening” without them. There is anatomical as well as much anecdotal “evidence” for the above. I"ve all but eliminated flats and especially declines from my programs and really like the difference. I’ll go from as low as 20 degrees up to as high as 60 degrees.
[quote]BFG wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Agreed, at the 24 hour, I go to now …
HAHAHAHA. You’re an idiot just like me! But you’re one of those 24 hour fagness posers aren’t you? You probably have a purple t-shirt that says bigger, faster, stronger, better too.
Man, you are one pathetic loser! [Jim Carrey D&Der voice]
Bastard![/quote]
Have you been taking a break from writing your romance novels? You seem a little edgy.
The one upside and it’s a very nice upside to 24hr is that there is an abundance of lovely ladies in very good shape that go there. Very motivating to say the least.
Here’s an article that recommends Limited Range DB Pullovers for the pec minor and Steep Incline 45 Degree Elbow Close Grip Bench for the clavicular pec fibers:
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
BFG wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Agreed, at the 24 hour, I go to now …
HAHAHAHA. You’re an idiot just like me! But you’re one of those 24 hour fagness posers aren’t you? You probably have a purple t-shirt that says bigger, faster, stronger, better too.
Man, you are one pathetic loser! [Jim Carrey D&Der voice]
Bastard!
Have you been taking a break from writing your romance novels? You seem a little edgy.
The one upside and it’s a very nice upside to 24hr is that there is an abundance of lovely ladies in very good shape that go there. Very motivating to say the least. [/quote]
Not to mention no one does olympic lifts or any kind of compound lift so the equip. is always open.
[quote]BFG wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Agreed, at the 24 hour, I go to now …
HAHAHAHA. You’re an idiot just like me! But you’re one of those 24 hour fagness posers aren’t you? You probably have a purple t-shirt that says bigger, faster, stronger, better too.
Man, you are one pathetic loser! [Jim Carrey D&Der voice]
Bastard![/quote]
This type of post lowers the standard of the forum!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
BFG wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Agreed, at the 24 hour, I go to now …
HAHAHAHA. You’re an idiot just like me! But you’re one of those 24 hour fagness posers aren’t you? You probably have a purple t-shirt that says bigger, faster, stronger, better too.
Man, you are one pathetic loser! [Jim Carrey D&Der voice]
Bastard!
This type of post lowers the standard of the forum!
[quote]Keith Wassung wrote:
bikemike wrote:
conorh wrote:
Keith Wassung wrote:
A quick thought.
modern coventional wisdom says you cant isolate muscle groups, such as upper pec, lower abs,etc. I agree with this in principle, but you can certainly emphasize certain parts of a muscle via concentration, hand, foot and elbow positioning and visual focus.
The “upper chest” is in fact a different muscle with a different attachment point, so you can specifically isolate it by doing inclines. Obviously, the rest of the chest doesn’t just chill out and drink beer, it get’s some stimulation too, but the brunt will be on the pec minor.
You cannot isolate any part of the pec with any exercise. You may emphasize different areas, but no isolation.
is’nt that exactly what I said in my earlier post?
[/quote]
Indeed it was, that was an oversight on my part. Thanks for the reality check.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
If your really interested in the pec minor, then chest “shrugs” on the incline bench with a light weight work. Very light. Start with the bar.[/quote]
[quote]!vic wrote:
Here’s an article that recommends Limited Range DB Pullovers for the pec minor and Steep Incline 45 Degree Elbow Close Grip Bench for the clavicular pec fibers:
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
I should qualify this confusing point on the minor and inclines. I do the bar squeezing or bending technique which involves the minor as a synergist. I notice defininte development. It is true that for direct stimulation of the minor the inclines don’t do the best job. The clavicular portion of the pecs are getting hammered here.
[/quote]
Are you saying that you notice the development of the pec minor? If so, how do you notice this?
In regard to your post before this one, there’s no argument here. That was a good link you posted. It didn’t have any more information than three or four books that I have sitting on my shelf. But for those who haven’t studied human anatomy and physiology extensively, that site has some good info.
modern coventional wisdom says you cant isolate muscle groups, such as upper pec, lower abs,etc. I agree with this in principle, but you can certainly emphasize certain parts of a muscle via concentration, hand, foot and elbow positioning and visual focus.
[/quote]
What I think modern conventional wisdom misses is a simple observation: If body mechanics didn’t change the emphasis within a muscle group to different areas, then why is it possible to tear only part of a muscle, and further more, why is it that certain injury events tend to strain/tear a muscle on one side and another injury event tends to tear the same muscle in another part/side? E.g. I recently inverted and sprained my ankle. In the process, the soleus strained, but only on the lateral side. If body mechanics didn’t affect the recruitment of muscle fibers within a muscle belly, then it would be impossible to strain on only a portion of the soleus. And the soleus is less complicated then the pec, as it crosses the ankle which has significantly less mobility then the shoulder.
My point is simple, different exercises do in fact affect the pec in different areas. It makes no sense to think otherwise. We can observe results that are repeatable that suggest that dips don’t build much on the upper pecs, and incline dumbbell press does.
My pick for an upper pec exercise that is often not done, elbows in, barbell pullovers done from stretch position to about 45 degrees from level. They hit the pec minor hard and by limiting the range of motion, the lats do not take over as much.
No argument for sure. Just my paranoia ;-). Seems like any of these types of discussions invite them, ya know. Yeah, that site is pretty good. An excellent book too is Delavier’s Stregth Training Anatomy. Gives good details on the various hand placements for back and chest work. Easy for lifters at any level to read and yet good enough for anyone to enjoy.
On the development of the minor, mind you this is obviously “touch and go” at best, but when I do heavy benches and engage them via the PL bar tearing or bending technique there is soreness that I cannot attribute to anything but…in my best estimation. The serratus and what should be the pec minor by location feel thoroughly trained on pullovers too. Also on pullover on the Hammer Stregth machine it seems I pick up a bit of a different “shape” (forgive me and a touch more size. Granted it’s nothing like the major would give but there is something here, at least for me it would seem. Would I swear to the above as an exact fact? No, but it sure makes me suspicious.
DH
PS. Have you any knowledge of books along the lines of Tesch’s Muscle meets Magnet for the muscles of the torso? If you don’t already have the above, it deals only with the limbs. I’ve always wanted to see some solid info on chest, back, and shoulder movements. For example I’ve seen info that says that DB laterals only activate the lateral deltoid to about 57% or so. Never cited where this info came from.
[quote]dcb wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
I should qualify this confusing point on the minor and inclines. I do the bar squeezing or bending technique which involves the minor as a synergist. I notice defininte development. It is true that for direct stimulation of the minor the inclines don’t do the best job. The clavicular portion of the pecs are getting hammered here.
Are you saying that you notice the development of the pec minor? If so, how do you notice this?
In regard to your post before this one, there’s no argument here. That was a good link you posted. It didn’t have any more information than three or four books that I have sitting on my shelf. But for those who haven’t studied human anatomy and physiology extensively, that site has some good info. [/quote]
Rolo,
Have you tried the BB pullovers with a SupraBar to keep the hands in a neutral position? I like the feel and you can employ starting in a pronated position and working to neutral on the concentric or eccentric. For that matter you can utilize all manner of variations with this versatile bar.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Rolo,
Have you tried the BB pullovers with a SupraBar to keep the hands in a neutral position? I like the feel and you can employ starting in a pronated position and working to neutral on the concentric or eccentric. For that matter you can utilize all manner of variations with this versatile bar.
Best,
DH[/quote]
Haven’t tried it, but I’m working out today and will throw them in for awhile. I appreciate the suggestion, I enjoy reading all your posts DH, lots of learning there.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
PS. Have you any knowledge of books along the lines of Tesch’s Muscle meets Magnet for the muscles of the torso?
[/quote]
Thank you for reminding me about that book. It’s been a few years since I’ve seen it but one of my friends in grad school had it. Actually that book was one of the reasons that I based my Master’s thesis on MRI analysis of the quadriceps. I think I’ll have to look it up again.
I think it’s generally a good idea to target the pec minor for some work. Hey it’s a muscle and it needs some love too! I just think people should understand that the minor is NOT attached to your upper arm, so it’s never going to be a prime mover in any kind of press. And, since it’s deep to your pec major, you’ll never be able to see much or any of it directly. Also, the bulk of the minor is really located more in the middle part of the chest, so it’s not really an “upper chest” muscle.
and a touch more size. Granted it’s nothing like the major would give but there is something here, at least for me it would seem. Would I swear to the above as an exact fact? No, but it sure makes me suspicious.
I just think people should understand that the minor is NOT attached to your upper arm, so it’s never going to be a prime mover in any kind of press. And, since it’s deep to your pec major, you’ll never be able to see much or any of it directly. Also, the bulk of the minor is really located more in the middle part of the chest, so it’s not really an “upper chest” muscle.