For me, with my kids it was about a learning experience. Rather than assigning blame, take ownership and identify what we learned.
I wanted to return just very briefly to the conversation about women opting out and the housekeeping issue. I got caught up in the argument that followed and providing justification for my own grievances, but as the conversation has settled I’ve realized that I came away with really incredibly valuable information.
I have been assuming that 9/10 women are more invested than their partners in clean/tidy, and that only 1/10 men are similarly oriented. The divorce statistics and research into relationship conflict certainly support this, as does my observed experience, which is fairly vast given my job and my long history of participation in topical social media. The first social media link I ever clicked was entitled “He Said/She Said,” which was hosted by Hearst Publications. This was back in the early 90’s. In the early 2000’s I similarly clicked “Sex and the Male Animal.” In fact, I’ve clicked pretty much everything everywhere because my curiosity about people and what drives them is seemingly bottomless.
@T3hPwnisher, @simo74, @Lonnie123, @SkyzykS, @BrickHead, @BlueCollarTr8n, @Alrightmiami19c, thank you for sounding like I do about your partners and the day-to-day hills to die on that you actually can’t die on because it would destroy your relationship. Because none of you come across as bitter shrews, nor your messy wives assholes. You come across as occasionally burdened by someone else’s confusing priorities. It’s altered my assumptions about men, women, and kitchens, which will benefit not only me, but also the people over whom I have influence. So thank you!
What moved me to post about this is that my jeep is (right now) being undercoated. I’m in bed with my laptop on a pillow, drinking coffee and posting. I’ve got a cold, so husband took the car so “you can get some rest and get well.” Except he took it last time, too, whenever that was. And he’ll load the snow tires in and take it in for that when the time comes, then unload the filthy summer tires and put them…wherever they go. I must strike him as being as completely oblivious as I do him. Which reminds me, I need to break down my pile of boxes today, because he complained about always having to do it a couple of years ago, so now I do my own - by piling them up for months at a time before messing with it. They’re in the garage, and out of sight is out of mind. Oh sure, I walk through there every time I leave the house! But I don’t look around. 
I hope the few women we have on here are similarly helpful for you guys in getting the view from the other side.
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You’re welcome. Thanks for the mention.
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This kind of reads like that old article about the guys wife who “divorced him because he left his dishes by the sink”
I read that every few years to see how I feel about it… Im still not sure honestly. On the one hand, yeah… just put the dish away, but on the other hand… Thats the dudes dish and he wants it available, who gives a shit? It would be just as easy for him to put it away as for her not to get upset about the way he wants that one dish. Although the article is purposefully zoomed in on that one aspect of their marriage so who knows how the rest of it was, I doubt that was the only thing that lead to the divorce.
As the one on the dude side of the equation I have tried to take away whatever lesson is there I suppose. Theres something about certain things that does seem to hit different to each of us, but as the old saying goes “its never about what its about”… Its not about the glass, its about what not putting the glass away signifies to other person.
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its about what not putting the glass away signifies to other person.
Nail on the head.
My wife loves words of affirmation. That’s her love language. I don’t need them at all. I much prefer acts (honestly, the dish would be a great example: prove to me that you value me by putting the dish away because you know I care about it).
In that regard, even though I don’t value the words, I employ words because I know my wife does. And, in turn, she really appreciates the words BECAUSE she knows that I don’t personally value them, because she knows I use them because I know that she does.
Which is really pretty inception-y.
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This sounds like I could copy and paste it about me. The words of affirmation thing is so hard because its so far off my radar for me that it almost never occurs to me to use them for her.
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It gets deeper in turn that way, because it’s easy to think “If I gotta keep saying it, you must not believe me when I say it”, when in truth it’s “I want you to keep saying it because I like hearing it”
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This hits home w/me. Took me way too long to understand this.
Re: Cleaning up. We weren’t together until we were both in our early forties. Both of us ran our own households, raised children, and were in Manager/Supervisor positions professionally. Both of us are territorial and competitive. Although there are no ‘Off Limits’ spaces in our home, there are some spaces we don’t share (ex. we have separate bathrooms, I see to the workout room and the office, etc.) We each prepare our own meals, and when she is working full-time, I see to my own laundry. These are things I did for fifteen years before we moved in together, why change them? I’m an introvert that leans OCD, but I did figure out some time ago that when she leaves something out, or neglects to clean up the way I believe it should be done, the solutions is for me to take care of it, not complain or start an argument. I have mentioned in the past and believe it’s worth mentioning again…sex is always on the schedule, we both know the day and time, it’s my job to show up prepared and with my A-Game, it’s her job to do the same. Anything that may happen in addition is ‘frosting’. When both parties agree this solves a ton of other problems.
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Great article, @Lonnie123. I agree with you that there’s more than just the glass, probably. Again, in my experience no one leaves over the housekeeping alone. But I think he lays out what happens over time really well - the chipping away at her belief that he cares about her or respects her time and energy. Particularly as women of this sort tend to feel that they have been very clear about their needs - tears and all.
So this is something I’ve regularly asked for more of, because without the words I’m reading the tea leaves, and they aren’t always positive, e.g. the dirty sink and counters. He can also be very critical at times. Definitely there are good tea leaves as well, e.g. his care of my car, but sometimes I get confused and the words seem very simple. He’s been better about it as time goes on.
He occasionally leaves me sweet notes, stuff like “you are my world,” and I will tell you that I save those. They mean a LOT to me.
This is us, too. We’ve kept laundry separate; both cook but I do a little more of the planning and execution because I care more what we eat; he generally maintains systems and I generally maintain the house, and so on.
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I personally love when the ladies post on Tnation. Women tend to think about things I would never consider. Or even consider considering. Lol.
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Subtle, but next level stuff to be sure.
For women that value words, spoken is great. Written though, thats gold!
My wife has saved every text, note, ticket, etc. since the day we met.
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Mine is particularly fond of keeping the court ordered documents. She’s such a hopeless romantic!
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Sometimes my woman will “catch” me doing a solo activity, like reading a book, watching a game or goofing off on T Nation. And she’ll ask “What are you doing?” Even when its Perfectly obvious what I’m doing.
What answer does she want to hear?
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Concert & movie tickets
But!!!
There’s a fair bit of misunderstanding surrounding PFA’s and restraining orders.
Allow me to clarify.
Men are often like “whoa, thats disproportional!” (Paraphrasing), and start crashing on their buddies couch until it expires.
But really, she just wants him to break it. Cuz if you’re willing to risk going to jail over her, well That is True Love.
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Getting away from you 
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Good question! Both of us ask it at my house, and I guess maybe it’s an invitation to hang out? Or just what John Gottman, PhD and couples researcher, calls a “bid for connection.” Like…when my husband asks, usually I’m online and I’ll say “goofing off,” and sometimes I’ll close the laptop to see what’s up. Sometimes I’ll tell him in more detail, which honestly he may not want. An example might be when a couple of weeks ago there was a big conversation about “how much is enough” among the women in training logs, and I blathered on about it and how much I love having a little gang of female workout enthusiasts, because I don’t have anyone to talk about it with in real life. Occasionally it’ll cue me to force him to listen to me read an entire thing aloud. Sometimes I’m in the middle of something and will just tell him that.
I’m gonna say that I ask him when I’m a little bored/lonely. I’ve finished whatever I was doing and am looking for the next thing. If he says he’s doing something specific (“watching this - it’s an episode about something-I-want-to-know”) I’ll move on to something else. If he says “nothing, really” I may propose doing something. Sometimes his answer is “looking at whatever…why, do you want to do something?”
So, after thinking it through I’m going to say bid for connection AND low key invitation to hang out. So the answer depends on what you want to do. Continue, or see if she wants to wants to watch something together.
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So… stop what I’m doing. Got it!
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Or don’t! I think if either of us really wants to do something we say so. I think - after mulling it over - that it’s a check-in and a low key offer to hang. Not a strong bid for attention. Here, anyway. We’re both pretty self-entertaining, so “what are you doing” also serves to confirm that I have time to engage in something solo.
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Yeah, not like a restraining order.
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Communication worked.
Instead of saying “watching College Gameday” I said “Just killing time.”
And we ended up painting the porch railings together.
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