The Fatherhood Thread

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That’s what I’ve always took those questions to mean. A soft intro into a no-rejection-risk way to see if the other person wants to do something (on either end, the person reading can say they are reading without saying “I don’t want to hang out with you” and the person asking didn’t technically ask to hang out)

“Watcha doing?” Instead of “hey obviously you’re reading but if that’s not super important to you right now could we do something together”

My dad has these kinds of hang ups about the “niceties” of language, but really it’s just how people talk. His big one recently is “why do people tell me why they’re leaving, they can just leave”

So instead of “okay well I gotta go do XYZ so I’ll see ya later” he wants us just be like “okay times up, bye” I guess.

Obviously no one interacts like that, although I’m sure many a stand up comedian has opined on the issue of how we communicate as well so these types of things aren’t unusual to notice. But really It’s just our current social customs of how we talk to each other

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Broadly addressing the theme of the thread because there are too many posters to quote one-off, we seem to again have gone down a rabbit hole of male victimhood, while promoting male dominance at the same time, which is kind of ironic. At least where I jumped back in to the topic.

Men will never be the chest up, firm handed trailblazing leaders they reminisce about from this position. Nobody is going to grant leadership, be it in an organization or a marriage, because we have a penis.

Leadership is something earned, or better yet created, by being the strength and providing/maintaining the structure others can exist within. This is true in every case of leadership. I do believe the qualities that make a man allow us to do this. Drive, initiative, grit et cetera. Cue female response of equality and yea women can exhibit these traits too but by and large it’s men, and women often insert themselves in to a process/function rather than assert themselves over it.

Explore and exercise these qualities. If you’re not getting the respect you feel like you deserve it may be wise to look in a mirror instead of at law allowing women to have jobs.

I promise you can still be a man today. Fully in charge of finances, budget, family functioning outline and the leader 1:1 in your marriage, while allowing partnership. And if you wash your own stinky gym undies sometimes it won’t harm you.

And, if there’s ever any doubt, put it in her butt.

It’s not hard. Just be a man instead of crying about not being one and make it all happen. Everything will organize and order around your action.

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591

I think this is accurate, and I would say that I and most of the women I know well are more likely to reluctantly fill a leadership vacuum than fight for dominance. Where that vacuum exists, so does disappointment and/or frustration. Same at work - I’m happy to follow cheerfully along, doing my job and being reminded about things or given orders regarding any changes to process…until I recognize that my leader’s values or competence don’t match my own, at which point I am very able to step out of line, whatever that might mean in a given situation. My capacity for leadership and my interest in it are two very different things.*

I think in both cases, relationships and jobs, it’s essential that the non-leader feel valued for her (or his) contribution, which is where the shitty boss or “dominant male victim” falls short. In leading women, this is most likely to require words. In my view, it also requires attention to her needs, whatever they are, which should be known as women generally explain things very well, e.g. “it’s disgusting.”

I’m curious; where do you fall on the “clean up after/not his mom” issue that’s causing such a ruckus in the chick-o-shpere?

*I should note that there are certainly women who want dominance or leadership. They should have it, because there are a corresponding number of men who don’t, and at the end of the day, who cares? I’m not sure why some men get so worked up over men who are happy to follow or women who prefer to lead. Just don’t marry them, and we’ll all be fine.

This made me laugh. You mentioned comedians…I feel like a lot of my therapy sessions include laughter over things like this. Just the total head-tilt nature of family stuff. I had a guy over the summer who missed the planning meeting at Denny’s for his family reunion because he had covid. He was completely knotted up over it when he first reported it because “I know my grandfather probably thinks I just blew it off” and “I’m expected to be there” even though “my grandfather just decides everything, you don’t really get to plan anything.” And the thought of them all there at Denny’s, nodding as this Mussolini character barked orders to the terrified (adult) junior family members just killed me, because I know this grandfather to be like the best guy in the world, and my client’s primary safe person growing up, which is why disappointing him was such a big deal. We laughed over the grandfather’s mac ‘n’ cheese reign of terror, client felt better, and ultimately it all went better than worried.

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There was too much back and forth assumed intent and correction for me to follow.

My wife does the lions share of day to day housekeeping tasks. I make it easy by using her system. Happy to let her own that process under the larger framework of our family dynamic.

Yes there are.

My only point of contention here is they should earn it, not have it, seemingly by default in your broader, unquoted context.

I do take issue with the whole forced equity, DEI side of things. Maybe not your direct point, but that’s often where the conversation begins to inadvertently lead.

If she takes it on merit, fine. And now she needs to hold it on merit. Just like a man. This, to me, is appropriate equality. Of opportunity. No participation/propagation trophies.

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My wifes dad does this same thing. He uses basic conventions of language or courtesy to be intentionally unpleasant.

I take it as an invitation to also be intentionally unpleasant. So we can be unpleasant together.

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Agree! I phrased it poorly. I definitely didn’t mean it should be given. Same thing men. Lead, follow, or get out the way.

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Maybe it’s just a generational thing.

My dad came to visit a few weeks ago. After a couple hours he said he was leaving, with no explanation.

It didn’t seem rude, but I definetly noticed it was Different. I hadn’t thought much about, but people today really do seem to lay out their entire To Do list when they leave.

I can see how old guys would notice the generational difference and be annoyed by the change in social norms.

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That’s a great post.

My retired psychologist said he had women in his office who would pound their fist on the arm of the office couch because their husbands weren’t decisive or authoritative enough. He also told a story in which one of his patients stopped dating a professor because he revealed to her a student got one over on him.

I usually don’t yell or insult, as I’m not interested in screaming or insult matches, but early in our relationship, I scolded my then fiancé (now wife) while pounding a table. She responded, “Finally!” :grinning_face:

I do think the thought or sight of a man being lead around by a woman disgusts some of us and that what you describe is a projection of that. They don’t want to be in that position themselves. Generally speaking men don’t like men who act like women. And men’s authority and status is what attracts women.

I do agree though. Don’t want a woman like that? Don’t marry one. And the way individual couples work out their business is just that. There are house-husband situations that work. I personally wouldn’t want that.

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As a Northerner(yankee) living in the South I feel like I offend people all the time with this. I absolutely hate the end of conversations where people trade pleasantries endlessly. Whether it be on the phone or in person it’s annoying. My go to is “okay, goodbye.” :joy:

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Sounds like you passed a shit test. It’s unfortunate they do this but they like to see assertion, and how you apply it. Part of the psyche.

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They have to know if you’re a stud or a dud. See the fire in the belly!

One girl I went with for a while after high school liked starting fights to see me finish them. She was kind of an asshole though. It was hard to just cut loose and have fun without hearing “my boyfriend is gonna kick your ass!”.

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For sure.

The problem is sometimes they’ll do stupid shit like this. Or they’ll take/instigate abuse against themselves as a dysfunctional way to feel overpowered. Then it all gets weird. It’s been a long time but I remember all the bs like this being the annoying part of dating.

I guess it never really ends though. I feel like I have a healthy marriage with emotional stability but sometimes my wife irrationally pops up with an attitude like she’s challenging me, as opposed to an attitude because she’s hungry or had a rough day or something. It’s like she wants to be checked. Still annoying all these years later but fortunately a good power fucking usually takes care of it. Women are interesting creatures.

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It changes form.

My wife had an absolute schizm when we were doing taxes one year and she realized I brought home more than her. I don’t care who earns what. It all goes into the same pot. But she really lost her shit.

It was pretty simple. 40 hrs. Straight time, + 20 hours at 1.5, x 52. :man_shrugging:t2:.
She was salary + bonus, but no guarantees on the bonuses.

On paper, and with flat hourly, I was behind, but overtime +++ put it over the top.

Then that all changed anyways with a different job, new child, heart attack, another different work set up, etc.

If you set up a win/lose scenario in your head, you’re risking a chance to lose. We (she) just had to dispense with all of that bullshit. It wasn’t helping anything.

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It’s a little different for us. It’s almost like sometimes we are too comfortable and adjusted and she flirts by being a problem. Not my favorite but whatever.

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Oh, yeah. I had one like that just before I met my wife. A bit of a bdsm dynamic.

I’d catch on to her acting up, like vacuuming in the wrong direction or putting wet dishes in the drying rack and handle things appropriately.

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I’m mulling the whole shit test thing and may decide to call bullshit on it, unless we’re talking about the broken girls and their broken men. Because - newsflash - men do wacky shit, too, that tests the limits of their partner’s patience and sometimes results in something along the lines of “I need you to look at me and hear me. This ends now.”

An example would be raised voice at the grocery store maybe last year or the year before. It had happened a couple of times previously. I was talking about making enchiladas, my friend Tara’s mom’s recipe, which is excellent. For reasons unclear to me I’d never made them before for husband. So he asks if there are beans in them, I say refried, and he starts going on and on about “authentic” enchiladas and what they need. The recipe does call for black beans, but I’m funny about beans. Anyway, I offer that perhaps he should try the things before he lays out his objections, as they are beloved by all, including native Texans. And his mood gets kind of shitty and he digs in, getting louder and edging toward insulting. Now we’re getting looks, so I ask him to stop yelling at me, to which he responds that if he were yelling, I’d know it. A lady gave me sympathy/concern eyebrows, and I finally extracted myself from the conversation, we paid, and left.

In the car I notified him that this was 100% unacceptable. I work as a therapist in this community and I don’t care how deeply you feel about enchiladas, YOU DO NOT RAISE YOUR VOICE TO ME LIKE THAT IN PUBLIC. He starts to argue/defend, and I told him to look at me and understand very clearly that if I tell him he’s yelling, I don’t care what he wants to talk about or whether he feels he’s yelling, I need him to simply stop. Just STFU. Period.

We butt heads a lot, but usually it’s friendly banter that ends with one of us saying “I’m just saying,” and the other announcing that they’re just saying, too. Cheerful and fun and people generally smile and very often join in. Good energy. Just occasionally it turns into bad energy. But I don’t assume he’s subconsciously trying to manipulate me into a smack-down to make sure I’m a fit partner.

Different but similar: my husband is generally really even tempered and cheery, but he goes through brief spells of seeming like he’s imprisoned by his life. Like he doesn’t want any of this - a wife, the house, the family - he just wants to live in a cabin in the woods by himself and not be bothered. I think of it as the call of the wild. My challenge is to not become reactive and withdraw, feeling rejected. Maybe next time I’ll inform him that I’m going to have to power fuck him, and ask him to go lay on the bed. :rofl:

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It’s unfortunate he showed his frustration publicly, but honestly ot seems like he was genuinely disappointed in bean choice. IMO he should’ve relaxed a little but this is far different than intentional limit testing from women, which is exceedingly common and not relegated to “broken” at all.

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Oh, I’m sure. And had a cranky moment. I certainly do sometimes, over just as little, and often the same kind of thing. I probably don’t raise my voice, but I can be ranty. It isn’t and wasn’t a big deal except we can’t have it, so stop. As far as his enchilada needs go, he’s as able a cook as I am, and can make some if he’d like a specific type. (He did later acknowledge that mine are yummy.) (I should make those next weekend.)

So may I ask how you differentiate women’s poor, boundary-testing behavior from men’s? Because our thing seems like what you’re calling a shit test. He pushed, and I came back hard when soft didn’t work.

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Insightful, serious talk on fatherhood published a few days ago.

Some important things covered:

  1. Fatherhood is a social creation. Motherhood is a biological creation. (The feminist Margaret Mead got these right.)
  2. Male complaining is limited.
  3. The primary purpose of marriage is establishing fatherhood, not childraising, and not reproduction.
  4. The father is the weakest link in the family.
  5. The foremost feminist aim is 100% control over the reproductive and child-raising processes. Hence no-fault divorce and abortion are of extreme importance to feminists (abortion is the mop-up job.)
  6. Father custody in cases of no-fault divorce with children is the linchpin that will likely alleviate injustices to men.
  7. MGTOW as a marriage strike.
  8. Be very careful in spouse selection.
  9. Tradcons like Tucker Carlson and Matt Walsh shame men for not “manning up” and marrying with no examination of the divorce regime. I add that they also don’t examine the sexual market.
  10. Credit given to the scholar Dr. Amneus, author of The Case for Father Custody (free online).
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I think the shit test falls into the category of a device or strategem to draw people in to you. Like the myriad ways a woman will push buttons to get a man to demonstrate passion or care. Ultimately though, they end up backfiring because they’re emotionally stressful and tiring.

It might be through creating disagreement, but disagreement is the means, not the end. Or jealousy, or any other negative emotion.

On the other hand, some behaviors are the end in and of themselves. Like a woman or man cheating. Not to create jealousy or some kind of show of emotion, but just for the satisfaction of the act, what ever itch it may scratch.

Like with the bean conflagration- that didn’t seem to be something that would draw you in or get you to demonstrate an emotion he felt was lacking. That was more like and uncalibrated disagreement that resulted in you placing a hard stop.

If it had some draw to it, like to win you over, resulting in a woman loving a man that loves his black beans more powerfully than before, it would be a shit test. As it was presented though, I think it was real disagreement.

:nerd_face: Thats my armchair analysis anyways.

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